Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Also, in re explosives, the reason why DCs werent' as dangerous is as you pointed out lack of fuel and also lack of O2. Torpex used in Allied DCs and torps was a rather stable explosive. If you were to lay a bunch on the ground you'd have a hard time lighting it with a match. If you lit it with a torch it'd burn.

The Japanese didn't use the same explosive though. If there's any comparison between their aerial/land munitions and their naval ones, it was probably less stable than Allied explosives.

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ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

Considering that torpedoes and DCs are designed to explode under water (where there isn't a lot of free oxygen), it seems to me that the explosive itself must contain the more than enough oxygen to support the explosion.  Therefore, it's debatable whether extra oxygen  in the area from a ruptured torpedo oxygen bottle (as opposed to extra oxygen in the explosive itself) would make the warhead more dangerous or the explosion of the warhead that much worse.

What the oxygen would possibly do is make any secondary fires started by the warhead explosion worse, and if the oxygen bottle ruptured first, the concentrated oxygen could obviously start fires (with an ignition source, which aren't hard to find in combat).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

Considering that torpedoes and DCs are designed to explode under water (where there isn't a lot of free oxygen), it seems to me that the explosive itself must contain the more than enough oxygen to support the explosion.  Therefore, it's debatable whether extra oxygen  in the area from a ruptured torpedo oxygen bottle (as opposed to extra oxygen in the explosive itself) would make the warhead more dangerous or the explosion of the warhead that much worse.

What the oxygen would possibly do is make any secondary fires started by the warhead explosion worse, and if the oxygen bottle ruptured first, the concentrated oxygen could obviously start fires (with an ignition source, which aren't hard to find in combat).

quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

Considering that torpedoes and DCs are designed to explode under water (where there isn't a lot of free oxygen), it seems to me that the explosive itself must contain the more than enough oxygen to support the explosion.  Therefore, it's debatable whether extra oxygen  in the area from a ruptured torpedo oxygen bottle (as opposed to extra oxygen in the explosive itself) would make the warhead more dangerous or the explosion of the warhead that much worse.

What the oxygen would possibly do is make any secondary fires started by the warhead explosion worse, and if the oxygen bottle ruptured first, the concentrated oxygen could obviously start fires (with an ignition source, which aren't hard to find in combat).

Correct but a fuel fire in air and a fuel fire with pure Oxyge are not very different. The only dif is pure Oxygen is more likely to start a fire but this is not possible when contained nor relevant if there is already a fire. With any torpedo containing 2-3 tons of fuel any direct hit will cause a fire.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryvan
(Contrary to popular belief though, O2 is not actually flammable by itself. It is an accelerant, not a fuel.)

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O2 is oxygen it is everywhere it makes no difference. Torpex did explode when exposed to fire a number of ships were lost this way.

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ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

O2 is oxygen it is everywhere it makes no difference. Torpex did explode when exposed to fire a number of ships were lost this way.

You completely missed the point. Yes, Oxygen is everywhere. But EVERYTHING combusts much more readily and much faster in pure O2 than it does in air. Many kinds of METAL will burn fast in pure O2 and not burn at all in air. The oxygen richness near the fire is the factor that controls the rate of combustion.

A torpedo fuel fire fed by a leaking O2 bottle will burn much hotter and much faster than a fire fed by mere air, because pure O2 is 5 times richer in O2 than mere air.

Ryvan has it right. You've got it completely wrong.

And yes, torpex explodes when detonated in a container. That is what it is supposed to do. When it's not contained it burns when exposed to heat, rather than exploding. That's also what it is supposed to do. It's a different explosive than the material that the Japanese used in their warheads.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

O2 is oxygen it is everywhere it makes no difference. Torpex did explode when exposed to fire a number of ships were lost this way.

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ORIGINAL: bklooste

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

O2 is oxygen it is everywhere it makes no difference. Torpex did explode when exposed to fire a number of ships were lost this way.

You completely missed the point. Yes, Oxygen is everywhere. But EVERYTHING combusts much more readily and much faster in pure O2 than it does in air. Many kinds of METAL will burn fast in pure O2 and not burn at all in air. The oxygen richness near the fire is the factor that controls the rate of combustion.

A torpedo fuel fire fed by a leaking O2 bottle will burn much hotter and much faster than a fire fed by mere air, because pure O2 is 5 times richer in O2 than mere air.

Ryvan has it right. You've got it completely wrong.

And yes, torpex explodes when detonated in a container. That is what it is supposed to do. When it's not contained it burns when exposed to heat, rather than exploding. That's also what it is supposed to do. It's a different explosive than the material that the Japanese used in their warheads.

1. It makes no difference whether it combusts or not when a Torpedo takes a hit it WILL cause a fire , fuel + O2 in air + explosion will do that.

2. How does O2 "leak" out of a compressed container ?

3. As said it will not be a bottle slowly feeding the fire . There is no incidance of a steel melting on anything bigger than a point this requires like 3000 degrees for a non instant period of time. When the air or Oxygen tank explode it will send the air everywhere in 3 Dimensions. There is no occurence of steel melting in these explotions on the other hand alluminium and Magnesium are a major risk.

4. In 99% of these cases there is no O2 released until the warhead explodes shattering the oxygen container this will create a 3D blast wave of O2 , this blast wave does not give the fire the energy to melt steel plate that is an inch or more thick even nuclear weapons had difficulty with this at short range.

5. Both explosive compounds are NOT that different they are both 40-60% TNT based mixtures and hence there properties will vary by a small amount. The Japanese using Hexaninte ( which the Germans also used in their torps) , if they get heated by a fire or hit by a shell both Torpex or Type 97 will blow explode.

Anyway im not going to convince you but
I believe The fact these torps were Oxygen were no different , and Niks losses of 5% of ships are pretty good. In almost every case a fire reached the torpedos which then exploded , i believe this is a difference and better DC may have prevented many of these cases though its arguable what kind of DC you can do when taking heavy punishment.

I will grant the Suzuya is unusual but it may have been the torpedo was armed , faulty dentonator or there may have been an issue with a massive shake in the armoured box.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Since oxygen enhances oxidation (burning or rusting, it's the same thing, only at different speeds), wouldn't the containers for pure oxygen be subjected to higher rates of corrosion than usual?

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ORIGINAL: Shark7

quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

O2 is oxygen it is everywhere it makes no difference. Torpex did explode when exposed to fire a number of ships were lost this way.

You completely missed the point. Yes, Oxygen is everywhere. But EVERYTHING combusts much more readily and much faster in pure O2 than it does in air. Many kinds of METAL will burn fast in pure O2 and not burn at all in air. The oxygen richness near the fire is the factor that controls the rate of combustion.

A torpedo fuel fire fed by a leaking O2 bottle will burn much hotter and much faster than a fire fed by mere air, because pure O2 is 5 times richer in O2 than mere air.

Ryvan has it right. You've got it completely wrong.

And yes, torpex explodes when detonated in a container. That is what it is supposed to do. When it's not contained it burns when exposed to heat, rather than exploding. That's also what it is supposed to do. It's a different explosive than the material that the Japanese used in their warheads.

1. It makes no difference whether it combusts or not when a Torpedo takes a hit it WILL cause a fire , fuel + O2 in air + explosion will do that.

2. How does O2 "leak" out of a compressed container ?

3. As said it will not be a bottle slowly feeding the fire . There is no incidance of a steel melting on anything bigger than a point this requires like 3000 degrees for a non instant period of time. When the air or Oxygen tank explode it will send the air everywhere in 3 Dimensions. There is no occurence of steel melting in these explotions on the other hand alluminium and Magnesium are a major risk.

4. In 99% of these cases there is no O2 released until the warhead explodes shattering the oxygen container this will create a 3D blast wave of O2 , this blast wave does not give the fire the energy to melt steel plate that is an inch or more thick even nuclear weapons had difficulty with this at short range.

5. Both explosive compounds are NOT that different they are both 40-60% TNT based mixtures and hence there properties will vary by a small amount. The Japanese using Hexaninte ( which the Germans also used in their torps) , if they get heated by a fire or hit by a shell both Torpex or Type 97 will blow explode.

Anyway im not going to convince you but
I believe The fact these torps were Oxygen were no different , and Niks losses of 5% of ships are pretty good. In almost every case a fire reached the torpedos which then exploded , i believe this is a difference and better DC may have prevented many of these cases though its arguable what kind of DC you can do when taking heavy punishment.

I will grant the Suzuya is unusual but it may have been the torpedo was armed , faulty dentonator or there may have been an issue with a massive shake in the armoured box.

2. Bad seals. Since I work with 02 bottles a lot in my job, I can tell you for a fact they can leak. The leak can be a slow seepage type leak, or it can be a catastrophic leak (which generally ends in the O2 Cylinder launching through the air like a missile). The catastrophic failure is bad, and can be deadly. Those bottles are under pressure at 2000 psi when full.

quote:

Since oxygen enhances oxidation (burning or rusting, it's the same thing, only at different speeds), wouldn't the containers for pure oxygen be subjected to higher rates of corrosion than usual?