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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/19/2010 9:04:00 PM   
PyleDriver


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Status: offline 		Agian I will just refer you back to the holes I punched up north. I have armor pushing into the rear...I really hope they spend their power on Kleist's flank...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/19/2010 9:55:34 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		You were also punching holes when the Soviets attacked Orel and retook Voronezh.

Attacking where your armoured forces are not, is probably one of the best Soviet strategies in the majority of wargames. If the AI could roll up your flank, you could push north all you want, but that doesn't change that you will have a hole in your flank that you need to plug.

If the AI can take the initiative from you in an area, even partially, it wins a strategic victory even if it loses the battle for the hexes it occupies.

Your lead elements are also not at Moscow yet and your Northern advance is quite slow (not to mention the situation around Rostov), so there's only a serious need for more men in the South. There's still some room for the AI to act.

Soviet strategy is all about death through a thousand cuts, the Axis have little choice but to try and K.O. the Soviets with a few good blows.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 4/19/2010 9:56:07 PM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/20/2010 12:03:40 AM   
PyleDriver


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Status: offline 		Your very correct...But Kleist's job is to keep Hoth's right busy, not go to Moscow. So lets see what happens. I just have to move some rear units and should be posting some turn 9 BAR's tonight. Wife is out of the house, thank god...lol...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/20/2010 10:54:35 AM   
PyleDriver


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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		(BAR) Well they want a fight in Tula...The pocket on my left won't die. I moved more fighters in the area hopeing the night drops slow. I will surround there troops in Tula, but th clock is ticking...




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/20/2010 12:55:40 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Is there a reason why you're refitting units next to the frontline, instead of 1 hex or more to the rear, or am I mixing up colours now and a blue outline doesn't indicate refitting?

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Post #: 305
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/20/2010 2:28:42 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		Units don't need to pull back to refit.  Hexes are 10 miles so there is room for elements to rotate out of the line, refit, and move back up all within the same hex.

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Post #: 306
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/20/2010 6:32:45 PM   
AZKGungHo


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Status: offline 		Yea!!  Happy to hear that you don't have to pull the units way out of line to refit them!  Finally!  One of my pet peeves is having to waste a turn pulling a unit back, a turn or more to refit, then moving them back again.  This game just keeps sounding better and better!

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/20/2010 7:22:30 PM   
Zorch

 

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Status: offline 		How's the Big Picture?

Is the overall change in the ratio of forces (over the past 2 months) to your liking?
Are you destroying enough of their experienced / elite troops to give you a realistic chance to shatter them before General Mud comes?

I understand what you say about this summer being the German's last chance to win the war.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/20/2010 9:32:06 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Seems to me the Germans are running out of gas and haven't achieved any real decisive gains. At some point very soon they probably should stop and rest and refit. A lot of the infantry divisions on the latest screenshots are looking quite frail.

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Post #: 309
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/20/2010 10:04:33 PM   
SGHunt


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Status: offline 		I disagree - on to Moscow or the game's up. And the North does seem to be crumbling (or it was last SS - maybe there are evn more reserves up there too.)

I love the fact that we have one of the best and most experienced testers pulling out all the stops and still the AI is building the roadblocks!

More pockets, with yet more prisoners - Hoth maybe needs to use one of his Corps to help free up the infantry armies so they can cover his East flank?

But dig in? Now? No chance.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/21/2010 12:31:55 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Not now, but he's got maybe a month and a half of prime campaigning weather left. That's not much time and there's a lot of Red Army still out there and his divisions are not getting any stronger with time. Look at those screenshots. The landser are getting ground down, he's got numerous scarecrow 3-4 pt infantry divisions and even the panzers aren't looking that hot. It is not at all clear that the attrition is working to the German's favor here. He hasn't acheived anything like a clean breakthrough, and is having problems digesting the pockets he's got going.

If he managed to take Moscow before the rasputitsa, it is doubtful he'd hold it.

The climax of this campaign is rapidly approaching and the German commander is going to have to make a choice whether to drive his army to the ground or stand down and dig in.

The good news is that if he stops in time he'll be in a far far better position than the Germans were in the real life Fall Blau. He hasn't overextended himself.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/21/2010 12:36:03 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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Status: offline 		Dig in? What the hell is that? Patton is only second to Christ Jesus in my mind. I am going to press this fight. I'm only half way through this. Hoth is looking to break the Oka, 2nd PzA can handle Tula...You can't sit on your hands in war...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/21/2010 3:37:47 AM   
Captain B


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From: Knoxville, Tennessee
Status: offline 		You tell them PyleDriver!!!

Patton didn't originate the quote " Il nous faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace! "; but he certainly lived by it! Most of the great battles were won not by sheer numbers, but by taking chances (with some heavy doses of luck and poor leadership on the losing side). There will be plenty of time to dig in, when the time is right, as long as you keep to a plan...and the one thing that is obvious here is that Jon has a plan (well that and a wife who thinks he spends too much time playing games). And he is maintaining his C&C. C&Cwins battles...and may win the war.

Enough pontificating...go get em!

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/21/2010 4:46:06 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		(BAR) Well thanks for the comments guys, this game can draw alot of energy out you. Hell I wake up from dreams running to the computer, Bad huh...Kleist, I thought Soviet reserves had to pull off his southern flank, there was just to many fires elsewhere. I want him to bust into the rear, Im accross the Don now and the timing is right...




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/21/2010 2:16:53 PM   
PyleDriver


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Status: offline 		(AAR) Leningrad front. Well they hit me and regained a land bridge. Oh well, my fight is not there. I did have to get my C&C in order there it was messed up. Now 18th armys four corps commanders have the artillery and armor support they need. This is a fall back front, Moscow my friends, If I get it this whole house of cards breaks apart...




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/21/2010 2:46:03 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Is there some kind of surrender event related to Moscow? (And if there is, I personally think that would be rather silly and gamey.)

Because otherwise, I'm not seeing the point here, strategically. It doesn't do you any good at all to take the place (temporarily) and dash your army to pieces in the process. The Germans should be playing a longer and deeper game here and hoping (at best) for a draw by bleeding the Red Army to death and holding it deep in Russia. 



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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/21/2010 3:17:53 PM   
Hard Sarge


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Status: offline 		but that is wrong Flav, the Germans could only win with a knock out, a long war, works to the SU/Allied favor

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/21/2010 3:49:25 PM   
janh

 

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Status: offline 		Didn't Stalin already evacuate major parts of the government and functionals from Moscow in November 1941 and early December, right before the German spearhead made it into the northeastern suburbs? I think it is safe to assume that the loss of Moscow would not have lead to and end of the war, or why on the other do you think it would?

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/21/2010 4:05:06 PM   
Ron

 

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Status: offline 		No, I think Flaviusx has a good point - what are the victory conditions?

Sure, initially Germany believed they could knock Russia out like a house of cards, but I don't think Russia ever really believed that. No doubt Stalin et al were shaken by events in '41, but it was pretty evident Russia was in it for the long haul. And in '42 Hitler himself began looking towards eliminating Russia's capacity to wage war as well as her will. It was a different war from '39 and '40.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/21/2010 4:41:53 PM   
Joel Billings


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Status: offline 		No surrender conditions with Moscow. Actually, no campaign victory conditions are in yet, but it will take much more than Moscow for the Germans to win outright. Loss of Moscow would be a loss of a lot of population, although some would migrate to other locations. Not sure if there would be much of a factory hit as I don't know how much is still there and needing to be relocated. The game would certainly not end if Moscow fell. Now the fact that there is a land bridge to Leningrad will eventually hurt Jon as the population, which is damaged when it has to take supplies only via the lake, will be able to get healthy again and start churning out additional soldiers for the Soviet army.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/21/2010 5:15:53 PM   
Pford

 

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Status: offline 		But Moscow has vast symbolical value. The lost of that city would have repercussions beyond the loss of millions of troops. At minimum a loss in national morale if not a political earthquake. No?

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/21/2010 6:05:20 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

but that is wrong Flav, the Germans could only win with a knock out, a long war, works to the SU/Allied favor


In this situation, in my estimation, the Germans have already lost the chance to "win" the war. The 1942 scenario start necessarily puts the Germans somewhat in the hole here. They would need to go into the 2nd campaign season in far better shape, instead, much time is wasted ironing out salients, taking out Sevastopol, etc. By the time all these preliminaries are out of the way, you're already deep into summer.

Pyledriver has done a fine job knocking these preliminaries out, but having done that the question becomes: what next? Taking out Moscow? At what cost and to what gain? I'm no pro at this game (obviously having never played it) but I'm looking at the map and seeing a lot of increasingly threadbare German units. An offensive driven too hard will simply burn out the Wehrmacht.

Vernichtungsgedanke seems completely out of the question to my in these circumstances. I'd be more inclined to preserve the German army strength and bleed the Red Army via attrition via backhand blows and creating strong reserves to do so.

Now, a totally fresh game with a 1941 start with the Germans going into 1942 in reasonable shape, that would be a different story.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/21/2010 6:25:24 PM   
PyleDriver


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Status: offline 		Joel I didn't now about the land bridge rule at Leningrad. I could have closed it agian. It may be my time to take a move back...Oh and I will. I've had so many AI redos It's my turn for once..

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/21/2010 6:30:36 PM   
Hard Sarge


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Status: offline 		Flav

well, I didn't say they had a chance in 42, they were already stuck into the long run war, they needed a knockout in 41, to have a chance, once they failed that, then it was a war of attrition which they couldn't win

once they lost the chance, they are stuck and need to keep fighting, but any "real" chance of winning was gone already, but they still made it a near run thing

what nation could lose, what 229 Divs in 6 months and still remain fighting, and then even more losses the next year

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/22/2010 12:02:46 AM   
Zorch

 

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Status: offline 		PyleDriver, can you estimate what the casualties are over the past 8 weeks?

It is possible that the Russians may run out of reserves if the Germans can maintain that same loss ratio for 8 more weeks.
If that happens, then the AI will have nothing to attack with when the mud comes.

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Post #: 325
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/22/2010 2:16:20 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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Status: offline 		Well heres a turn 9 start losses...Alot higher than I want to see...But I still plan to press on to my goal...As far as Moscow it's such a key, industrial, population and transportation. Its the center, and any chess player will tell you, control the center of the board you control the game...




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/22/2010 2:46:31 AM   
PyleDriver


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Status: offline 		A comment, seems like theres alot poping up now...It's all about balance, can you keep the other on there heels, if you can you will win...So I press everywhere, and I have more up tricks up my sleeve. I will beat this bear...lol...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/22/2010 4:15:22 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		I'd be interested in seeing the industrial and manpower potential in play here for both sides.

Roughly speaking, the Germans are killing 3 AFVs for every one they lose, and 6 men for every one lost, as well as 4 guns for every one lost.

Impressive figures, taken in a vacuum. But perhaps not enough. The Russians may actually be in a position to absorb such losses and spring back once the weather turns.

I actually think Pyledriver in many respects is doing the right thing and is handling his forces exceptionally well. (The real life Fall Blau plan was imo absurd and imposed tasks on the Wehrmacht beyond its strength to achieve.) Kill the Sovs while the killing is good. But where I disagree is in the idea that a knockout blow is in the cards, or that taking Moscow is any kind of strategical end point. This is not, in fact, chess. Moscow isn't the king, nor is any single postion on the map. I'd have to look at detailed production and manpower figures, but based on Joel's comments, if you really wanted to permanently cripple the Soviet warmaking potential, you'd need to go much further than that.

However. Even leaving Moscow aside, the Germans are in much better shape than in real life simply because there is no Stalingrad situation in play here. They are in excellent position to parry any Soviet counteroffensive mounted during the winter if they don't burn out the Wehrmacht. It's a question of knowing when to stop.

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Post #: 328
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/22/2010 4:35:04 AM   
kfmiller41


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Status: offline 		Seems to me that victory for the Germans could be based on a combination of taking strategic places, and inflicting heavier losses on the red army than were done historically. From the many things I have read even the fact that soviet Russia was a dictatorship didn't mean if couldn't be bled down (it was historically) and if the Germans conduct a spirited defense with more freedom of action than they had in real life I would think Russian losses could be so bad that the army could have collapsed. Just my humble opinion. Without some kind of incentive for the German player to keep fighting the good fight then I could see players throwing in the towel if they don't think they have any chance after 1941/42.

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Post #: 329
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/22/2010 4:46:39 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		If you calculated victory in a relative fashion to real life performance, I'd say Pyldriver has won (or at any rate is in an very good position to win since he will almost certainly avoid a Stalingradesque brainfart.)

If you determine victory on an absolute basis...not so much. (And by absolute I mean just that: the war is won.) But that's probably not a fair metric: he inherited the scenario conditions which are not favorable to the Germans.

Which brings up an interesting design philosophy question: how should we determine victory in these games? Starting from 1941 the absolute metric is probably best, but in a scenario? How do we define victory in, say, a Bagration scenario?

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