RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/23/2010 11:03:46 PM

PyleDriver

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Stuart, theres two things. By the time I move a PzC north from Kleist rain will fall, and I have to look at C&C. Hoth is loaded now. They become less effective if overloaded...42 is a rough game, sure I make it look easy. The transfer of trucks and the management of AP's is a tring task...Just wait, opp's you are...I'm still thinking of Kleist moving overland north....I still have things in mind...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/23/2010 11:17:54 PM

Neal_MLC

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If this is an ALPHA AAR, what are the PBEM AARs going to look like

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/23/2010 11:20:30 PM

ComradeP

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If the resistance at Moscow is too tough, you could try moving along the Oka up to Murom. The problem is that the terrain in the North makes a big advance towards Yaroslavl or Ivanovo from the West more or less impossible in winter/early spring it seems.

If you can get to Vladimir and the railroad clear hex Northwest of Vladimir bordering the hex with the special water hexside, it's basically over for Moscow.

If you switch all or at the least the vast majority of your Panzer and Motorised formations to the Eastern flank, you should be able to make some progress as the terrain is quite good. You could even advance to Saransk to more or less cut the front in two and create more space between the forces at Moscow and Soviet reserves in other parts of the Soviet Union. That huge steppe area to the East is just begging you to move some mobile formations there, formations that might be less useful in the wooded/swampy area around Moscow.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 5/23/2010 11:22:15 PM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 1:44:29 AM

wodin

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Ive read many AAR's and this one with everyone talking strategy has to be the most exciting one I've ever read. I keep reading peoples comments then going back to check the map to see how it would work and what they are seeing. PyleDriver I thankyou for a great AAR....better than many East Front books I've rad.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 8:33:07 AM

PyleDriver

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(DAR) Well the pockets were taken out in order. Over 130k Soviets taken. Still my railheads will take a week or so to get repaired across the Okh...Unlike the Rolling Stones, time is not on my side...This is good huh, I have more in store.... Damn I created this monster, I used to kick this AI around like a red headed step child...lol...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 11:00:01 AM

ComradeP

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Many of those Soviet units/stacks seem to be really weak, so even when mud/winter comes, you should still be able to make some progress.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 1:57:44 PM

Hard Sarge

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you don't want to attack in mud

really, you don't want to

your losses are going to be heavy

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 3:31:39 PM

ComradeP

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Even if the defender has a strength of 1 and you're attacking in clear or perhaps preferably wooded terrain?

I was under the impression that mud mostly slows down movement and thus momentum, but weapons should function normally aside from artillery shells without proximity fuses. Mud might even be more difficult for the defender, as static equipment could sink into the mud.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 4:44:45 PM

PyleDriver

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Ron is correct, you just lick your wounds and wait for frost...This winter offence will be interresting to see...BTW I have no idea why my last post was so screwed up...

< Message edited by PyleDriver -- 5/24/2010 4:53:31 PM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 4:53:06 PM

Joel Billings

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In mud assuming low Soviet reserves you can hammer out a hex here or a hex there. But it's almost impossible to gain much more than that and forming pockets is what the Germans need to do. Otherwise it's pure attrition with a ratio of losses that is very bad for the Germans. Using non-random weather mud only lasts 3 weeks in the fall.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 6:19:13 PM

critter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Even if the defender has a strength of 1 and you're attacking in clear or perhaps preferably wooded terrain?

I was under the impression that mud mostly slows down movement and thus momentum, but weapons should function normally aside from artillery shells without proximity fuses. Mud might even be more difficult for the defender, as static equipment could sink into the mud.

Got to agree with ComradeP. Seems stupid to waste 3 weeks.
But then again, maybe you want your troops to be fresh for the frost?

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 6:27:27 PM

Hard Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Even if the defender has a strength of 1 and you're attacking in clear or perhaps preferably wooded terrain?

I was under the impression that mud mostly slows down movement and thus momentum, but weapons should function normally aside from artillery shells without proximity fuses. Mud might even be more difficult for the defender, as static equipment could sink into the mud.

it goes deeper then that, you have 10,000 men, attacking, in a clear turn, you may get 8,000 of them into the battle, during mud, you still have 10,000 men, but you may only get 2,000 to show up

really, believe me, you will learn to either love or hate MUD

my current game, I got to the point, the only chance the Russian has, is the weather breaking, and, the 2nd week of Oct, the MUD hit (really hurt having to withdraw my SS Mot Div (3rd SS)

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 6:30:07 PM

Hard Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: critter

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Even if the defender has a strength of 1 and you're attacking in clear or perhaps preferably wooded terrain?

I was under the impression that mud mostly slows down movement and thus momentum, but weapons should function normally aside from artillery shells without proximity fuses. Mud might even be more difficult for the defender, as static equipment could sink into the mud.

Got to agree with ComradeP. Seems stupid to waste 3 weeks.
But then again, maybe you want your troops to be fresh for the frost?

well, again, I don't think the Idea is it is stupid, or that the Generals were Stupid, you just couldn't do it, when trucks don't move, when tanks don't move, you don't move

the Mud season was nasty, and even the Germans looked forward to the snow

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 7:11:21 PM

ComradeP

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I'll move the discussion to the Q&A thread.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 9:19:44 PM

Zorch

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Jon, did you something with air recon to make all those Soviet units near Moscow visible? I assume that most of them were there before, but didn't show up because your units were too far away...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 10:11:04 PM

SGHunt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver
Well the pockets were taken out in order.

Blimey - that was impressive, especially the fact that you took out the stack that had been 'freed' by the Russians. Now there's some kind of hole in the front line - smash through to the Moskva and over with everything you've got. That is some schwerpunkt. And you have some 'spare' infantry divisions in the rear to close up the gaps a bit.

Are you sure you won't go through that 1=3 infantry division to the N and E of your main assault groups, and over the river that way? Maybe see how much progress the cyan Pz Armee to the East (I've forgotten its designation)can make first.

I have just spotted the strongest Sov Infantry Corps by far to date in this AAR - an attack value of 14!!! Hmmm, yes, perhaps some caution after all... On second thoughts - attackieren!

Finally, I had assumed that the 'spare' Kleist Pz Korps would simply move overland using the movement points shown. On friendly and open terrain they would be at the OKa this turn if they advance behind the infantry line, no? And I had him linked up with the Cyan Pz A, not Hoth. Inf Korps are then shuffled to Kleist to prevent overload. I know you are short of admin points, but everone is activated now, aren't they?

And sure, you make it look really easy...!

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 10:19:10 PM

SGHunt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
you could try moving along the Oka up to Murom

Pieter

Now that would be bold! Problem is there's no railway line to Murom except through Moscow...And if you could drive to Vladimir, you would be strong enough to just close up the gap much closer to Moscow. Less logistical problems and less front to defend.

I like the idea of the grand sweep, but I can't see it's at all feasible. You just love the thought of that open tank country to the West of Murom, don't you?

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 11:37:45 PM

PyleDriver

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Stuart, Hoth hit that crossing with everything he could muster. I don't do peicemeal attacks when a show of force is needed. Got to hit them so hard they bleed...Its still all about time now...Hum...Oh, 2nd PzA is on the move, this is not over yet...Almost like a good movie...lol...Oh then theres Kleist...I really am getting into postion after the fall rain. First time I had to do this...I love this game so...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/24/2010 11:51:53 PM

janh

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I wonder whether you could ask someone of your dev team to take a screenshot of the russian dispositions and strength at this point and post it in a different thread. That would probably give deep insights into the reactions and planning qualities of the AI...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/25/2010 11:15:02 AM

ComradeP

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quote:

Now that would be bold! Problem is there's no railway line to Murom except through Moscow...And if you could drive to Vladimir, you would be strong enough to just close up the gap much closer to Moscow. Less logistical problems and less front to defend.

I like the idea of the grand sweep, but I can't see it's at all feasible. You just love the thought of that open tank country to the West of Murom, don't you?

Stuart,

I was surprised to see that there doesn't seem to be a rail bridge at Ryazan, I don't know how problematic that would be in terms of supplies (if supplies can move across the major river). There are rail lines West of Murom that shouldn't be too difficult to capture, but there's no link to the rest of the railroad network due to the lack of a bridge at Ryazan.

I wasn't thinking about a grand sweep per se, but more about creating a large encirclement instead of a limited one. Space can help when you're trying to encircle something.

Yes, a smaller encirclement would be less taxing on the logistics, but it's also easier for the Soviets to break through it. If the Soviets would penetrate an encirclement in the shape of a larger circle, you can make the circle smaller and keep the encirclement in tact.

As Jon seems to intend to starve Moscow first before attacking, placing as many hexes between a Soviet relief force and Moscow might be a good idea, which is also why an attack in the open steppes to the East might be a good way to distract the Soviets.

Attacking Vladimir isn't going to work unless there's the possibility of a link up with forces coming from the West, but Murom is a bit exposed and taking it would make sure the Soviets can't move forces in by train directly from the East, they'd have to take a detour to the North.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 5/25/2010 11:17:39 AM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/25/2010 10:23:58 PM

roman uk

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Dear Pyledriver,

Great AAR.

A couple of questions;

If you put pressure in front of Moscow would that draw more reserves into the pocket, out of Moscow proper? (curious how the AI would react)

Does Moscow have special supply rules, to hold out in seige?

If, or when you take Moscow, is that a strategic 'gamechanger', eg change the strategic balance towards the Wehrmacht, or does it only delay the inevitable? Is the moscow 42 strategy viable?

thanks,

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/26/2010 4:17:35 AM

PyleDriver

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Not really sure how the AI is going to react to 3rd PzA being activated... I do know by air recon they have had units there for a while and most have very good entrenchments by now...We have talked about the importance of the loss of Moscow, morale levels and such but thats still on the table. The loss of population, industry, and rail hub is huge already...I will have to beat down there air resupply (if taken), so the LW will be close to knock it down...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/26/2010 4:59:29 AM

PyleDriver

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(DAR) the Rum. Cav. Corps is spent. I pulled it off the line and sent it to garrison duty. 6 fresh Rum divisions that are rested are arriving. Voroshilovgrad is a must take now and Wiking and 13th PzD struck north...

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< Message edited by PyleDriver -- 5/26/2010 5:00:36 AM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/26/2010 12:27:36 PM

ComradeP

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It seems you either forgot to cut out the white area of the print screen, or Paint or whatever program you're using added it somehow.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/26/2010 1:32:45 PM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

It seems you either forgot to cut out the white area of the print screen, or Paint or whatever program you're using added it somehow.

I just remembered what might have happened to you Jon... it is very easy "fix"...

I think that default (i.e. blank) picture you are posting into is enlarged in MS Paint - all you need to do is to reduce it's size and it will be OK!

Thus just go to MS Paint and do the following:

Go to "Image" -> "Attributes" and place 100 x 100 there (not it must be very large numbers like 2244 x 2394)!

Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/26/2010 4:56:41 PM

PyleDriver

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Sorry guys, my wife screwed with my paint program, Leo (Apollo 11) is trying to help me get it straight. I'm not a computer guy, just Joel's jocky...Got to love to hate the wife sometimes...lol...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/26/2010 5:08:26 PM

Shadrach

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Have a look at Irfanview for a Paint replacement if all you want to do is paste screenshots and do minor editing (resize, add text etc), its free and you can stay away from the mess that is MS Paint

http://www.irfanview.com/
(not spamming, just a tip)

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/26/2010 6:23:07 PM

PyleDriver

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(AAR) Kleist countered and sent a Cav and Tank Corps to the rear. He has requested full refit for his Army. But there is a party in Tambov as troops get a break...2nd army pulled up his left and 6th the right in order... As with Hoth, Kleist has a narrow front and moble units. Punch one hole and bing, there they go...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/26/2010 10:29:53 PM

SGHunt

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I can't see where Kleist is leading his tired and battered legions now...?

Out into that wide open steppe on a gigantic hit and run raid? Does Penza have any strategic significance as a rail hub? Or are they just going to wrap up those remaining Russian Corps to the North in a final battle of anihilation before the mud, and a refit? Oh, and can I come to the party in Tambov - I need some RnR meself?

And anyway, whay are you teasing us so mercilessly - what about the real money, South of Moscow? Where do those two Panzerarmeen go now, Herr von PyleDriver?

Stuart

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/27/2010 2:40:58 AM

wurger54

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quote:

And anyway, whay are you teasing us so mercilessly - what about the real money, South of Moscow?�� Where do those two Panzerarmeen go now, Herr von PyleDriver?

Been watching this AAR with great interest. Looks like the front is about where it should be for a determined Soviet defense of the Motherland in '42. It does look like the Soviet army is in no condition to launch a great winter offensive against a German army spent from the summer's exertion. Rather the German army looks like it is tired, but temporarily inconvenienced by the fall rains on its way to taking Moscow. Is this accurate, or am I missing the boat?