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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/27/2010 8:28:10 AM   
PyleDriver


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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Stuart, Kleists job is to draw Soviet reserves and roll the line north... 2nd PzA is clearing Hoth's right...My honey do list was heavy today, I should have more ss's soon.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/27/2010 5:46:31 PM   
PyleDriver


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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		(AAR) Well Schmidt's 2nd PzA struck hard clearing most of the swamps and has become a real threat. Supply will be a problem when the rain hits... Hoth plans a thrust NE to cross the Moskva next week... 2nd Army got LIX corp across the Oka and is providing 2nd PzA's flank... Heinrici's 4th army has a choke hold on Kaluga now, remember he's holding the big guns now...What I'm looking for now is a railhead over the Moskva for the winter offense...Just checked, we have winter clothing this year...lol...




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/27/2010 6:20:11 PM   
PyleDriver


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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		OK, I'm giving up the ghost. I have 2 weeks before the fall rain. I have pretty colored arrows of what I plan for guys...Hum can I do it?...Stay tuned...Damn I love this game...




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< Message edited by PyleDriver -- 5/27/2010 6:24:36 PM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/27/2010 6:41:28 PM   
zbig

 

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Status: offline 		Has there been a decrease in Soveit air activiy due to the their air units moving to avoid the panzers?

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/27/2010 6:57:32 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Not really (they have so many now), air units can move and still put planes in the air. Depends how far they move there airbases as to how many they can get flying... Post this on Q&A, others may give a better answer...I hate commericals, and this movie is getting good...Once agian, this is a S&T site, not a Q&A...Please post questions there...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/27/2010 7:26:20 PM   
Neal_MLC

 

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Status: offline 		What does the Finnish/Leningrad front look like?

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/27/2010 8:53:06 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		Attacking on 6 axis in late 42 The logistics, replacement and rest model kinda keeps suspending my belief. A more plausible one would help the AI no end.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/27/2010 9:41:16 PM   
SGHunt


Posts: 873
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From: Lancaster, England
Status: offline 		That offensive is so sweet - you are doing this right.   Both of the final cities before Moscow encircled in one turn (and what joy when 2nd Pz frees its own infantry after Ryazan falls!  Next turn do you think?)

Whilst I am always suggesting for you push too hard and too fast, it seems, and in a way that I'm sure would put my spearheads at risk, you are maintaining both pressure and cohesion.   I learn.  

I guess you've missed the full encirclement by a week or two before the mud stops everything?   And... where are those Soviet tanks?

But, you are very strong to the S and SE of Moscow, and if Uncle Joe does not pull everything away from the Oka and create a final defence behind the Moskva, he is surely knackered (this is a technical military term used by the British - it describes a really rather delicate and uncomfortable situation).

So, Kleist is set to continue the roll North, chewing up troops all the way.    Two weeks left and he can kill a lot more, but he can't surely get to where your orange arrow points before the mud, can he?

Final thought, if 3rd Pz (yellow arrow) cuts NE rather than SE, wouldn't it support the main thrust by Model over the canal?   If you can effect the link up with Hoth to the east of Moscow, all those troops you are looking to net to the SW of Moscow will be done for anyway, won't they?

I've never really become aware of Herr General Schmidt before - what a classic Prussian



Jon, don't sleep - play and post....

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 12:03:39 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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Status: offline 		Yep Stuart, I'm looking to net units more before the rain comes and get in postion...As far as the Leningrad front it's static. I'll let you know where the action is guys...Sorry Stuart at my age I need my naps...lol...Smirfy, I'm keeping supply lines short and only looking at 30 miles in 2 weeks, Kleist does plan a bold move north (he's got the tigers that havn't sprung yet)...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 12:40:02 AM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Yep Stuart, I'm looking to net units more before the rain comes and get in postion...As far as the Leningrad front it's static. I'll let you know where the action is guys...Sorry Stuart at my age I need my naps...lol...Smirfy, I'm keeping supply lines short and only looking at 30 miles in 2 weeks, Kleist does plan a bold move north (he's got the tigers that havn't sprung yet)...


Enjoy your nap. I make your supply lines over a thousand miles not thirty. I'm not quite sure the Russian rail network could sustain 6 plus armies on the offensive especially intensive methodical ones. I'm not even sure if the rail network was perfect to the front Germany could supply and sustain that intensity of combat. The Campaign resembles Ludendorff on crack rather than the Blitzkreigs raison d'être.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 1:57:38 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Well the RR's are western gadge now and the Germans were renown for time management. So yes the distance to railheads is a key and it is 30 miles. If I had the trucks Moscow would have been mine already... Now can I pull off the hat trick this winter, it remains to be seen....

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 2:53:16 AM   
blam0

 

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Status: offline 		What a great game.  What a great AAR!

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 4:15:43 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Smirfy, my own view is that there's no balance issue here or logistical one. PD simply is better and smarter than the AI and is manhandling it. I do not believe he'd be getting away with this kind of stuff anywhere near so easily against a human player at his level.

At this point I'd like to see a human to human match between the playtesters. That will be the true test. Hard Sarge vs. PD would be a good matchup. At some point the devs need to make this happen anyways in order to test game balance. (And I suspect this game will eventually be played in large part by PBEM.) Because right now it's very easy for me to identify errors in computer play and write off problems on that score.


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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 6:00:04 AM   
wurger54

 

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quote:

At this point I'd like to see a human to human match between the playtesters. That will be the true test. Hard Sarge vs. PD would be a good matchup. At some point the devs need to make this happen anyways in order to test game balance. (And I suspect this game will eventually be played in large part by PBEM.) Because right now it's very easy for me to identify errors in computer play and write off problems on that score.


Yep!




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 8:34:27 AM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Smirfy, my own view is that there's no balance issue here or logistical one. PD simply is better and smarter than the AI and is manhandling it. I do not believe he'd be getting away with this kind of stuff anywhere near so easily against a human player at his level.

At this point I'd like to see a human to human match between the playtesters. That will be the true test. Hard Sarge vs. PD would be a good matchup. At some point the devs need to make this happen anyways in order to test game balance. (And I suspect this game will eventually be played in large part by PBEM.) Because right now it's very easy for me to identify errors in computer play and write off problems on that score.



At this point when the developers can actually change things perhaps they will considered after going to such detail on every aspect of the game was continuous line offensives along the entire Russia front feasible for Germany? I have to say based on all the empirical evidence I'm not sure what we have dovetails with the nuances of operational warfare in the east and its evolution interesting as the AAR is.


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Post #: 645
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 9:07:28 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		But it is not a continuous offensive along the entire front. A good chunk of it, 1/3 or more, is pretty quiet. And PD has been resting and rotating units throughout the game.

The problem here is the AI's passivity and inability to mass and use its reserves properly in those areas of the front which are active. It's spreading itself all over the front. PD is baiting it in a way that he could never do against a human, in a way that is frankly exploiting the AI's programmed responses. It's smart, but gamey as hell. I've come to the conclusion that his entire push past Voronezh, which never made sense to me on a purely strategic basis, is based on just this: he's taking advantage of the AIs inability to distinguish between what matters and what doesn't. It reacts to this diversion. A lot of his seemingly oddball pushes are in fact designed around predictable AI behavior and to elicit such responses.

I'm particularly gobsmacked at the AI's dispersal of forces in the south at a time when Moscow is under direct threat. I would have approximately zero mobile corps in the South against PD. Conversely, he should be fighting against all two dozen of them along the immediate Moscow front rather than the half dozen or so I see in the screenshots. Nor do I see the AI massing AT units against the panzers. (Where are all the AT units? Is it even building them? I've seen but a bare handful.)

Ultimately it is impossible to judge the game balance and mechanics when the AI plays so woodenly.

A human player I'm morally certain could do better than this. Let's put Sarge up against PD and see what happens. Then we can judge if the operational tempo of the game is too high or not.

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Post #: 646
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 12:49:01 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		The Germans were still fairly close to Moscow at the start of the summer 1942 campaign season, so I don't think the logistics would've been a killer if the operation had taken place in real life. It is surprising that virtually all German troops are non-static, that does seem weird as there was no way in hell the Germans could basically put all their troops in an offensive posture, with adequate supplies for an attack, for weeks.

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Post #: 647
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 1:08:05 PM   
SGHunt


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Status: offline 		Pieter - I understand that there are penalties for having too many units on the go at once?

And for Smirfy (is your handle from the Bash St Kids, BTW?) -  I also believe that there has been a lot of research done on the production and supply logistics, fatigue, wear and tear, mechanical breakdown (and repair) etc.  See various threads.

As for the AI vs Humie debate - there have been occassions durng this AAR (and during Elmo's) where the AI has done a pretty good job IMO, and would have presented many on this forum with some interesting challenges.   I recall Elmo's first winter was a none too pleasant for those of us who had been urging him on.

And I bet we will all take some time to learn how to beat it, as Jon certainly has learned over the long period of his play testing.    He will also learn how to beat me, I expect, if ever I pluck up the courage to PBEM.   I do know that what we have over the AI is unpredictability (but we are still predictable plenty of times!)  And we forget to do stuff and behave recklessly, or over-cautiously, blow the logistics, underestimate what's 'out there' or whatever.

And yes, a Hard Sarge Vs PD AAR would be great, especially if they play with full FOW and they post to two separate AAR threads.    Drool....  How about it boys, once Jon has captured Moscow?

And, aren't we all off topic?   Sorry...



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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 1:30:22 PM   
SGHunt


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Status: offline 		Smirfy - 'was continuous line offensives along the entire Russia front feasible for Germany?'

No, definitely not - continuous lines  are themselves only just feasible across the whole front and only this by having the odd single regiment to 10 miles of front.  

I also think it is much more like 50% of the front that is quiet at the moment - a lot more units than that are 'activated' to be sure, but nothing like that many are on the offence.   South, below Kleist it seems about 4 divisions are committed to offensive action over some 350 miles of front.  Up North, 250 miles, with no units on the offence.   This makes a bit more than half the total front, even accounting for bulges and bends, and quite a bit more if we add the Finns.

S

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 4:37:26 PM   
vinnie71

 

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Status: offline 		BTW would the Russians have that much superiority in men and machines to be able to deploy massive formations in a head on counterattack in '42? I guess not, coz they've just come out from a disastrous year...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 4:58:37 PM   
PyleDriver


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Status: offline 		Stuart thanks for watching my back... I am an expert player, one of the best 3 we have. If you play Andy, Joel or myself, you're bound to get beat. Yes I make it look easy (its not), buy the game and you post your results (if you dare)...Now can we get back to enjoying this AAR and shut the hell up on this...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 5:50:49 PM   
Smirfy

 

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NP I'll move over to Q+A

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 6:06:17 PM   
The SNAFU


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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 8:18:31 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		von Jaeger, the AI is making all sorts of rookie mistakes, don't even try to defend it. It's being led around by its nose by PD. Its distribution of forces given the strategic situation borders on the asinine. PD is baiting it and making it spread itself all over the map. Quite simply, the AI doesn't know the difference between what matters and what doesn't and is being suckered into leaving Moscow underdefended. I applaud PD's cleverness, but let's understand exactly what he's doing here, he has been quite open about it in fact.

Put Sarge against PD. You know damn well it would be a very very different game than this.


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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 8:48:03 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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Status: offline 		Guy's the AI is going alot better job now. Look at Jon's 42 posts (its on page 2) I did earlier, I crushed the AI...Ron already backed from the offer and I'm way behind getting my S&T guide ready. Guys this is still Alpha lets just enjoy the AAR...I have more stuff to send to Joel and Gary now. You guys are killing me...Instead of playing and posting (ss's) I have to respond to this crap...Please dump it on Q&A...I don't get paid to do this, so get off my back...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 8:59:20 PM   
roman uk

 

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Status: offline 		I think Pd has the correct tactics in taking on the Soviets, encircling smaller elements, and ensuring decent exchange rates ( men 7:1, armor 4:1), however is barely breaking even in the short term, and will be swamped in the long term unless he changes the strategic balance (aka, uses the short term advantage to lessen the manufacturing advantage of the soviets).

(PD : Though the Soviet numbers seem stable (5.5 million men, have the losses you inflicted lessenned them qualitatively?)

Looking at the soviet losses they have committed huge material resources. In 42 the soviets still had poor C+C, and PD has played in a very disciplined manner. I would be interested if they did attack wholesale against the best of the Nazis, perhaps Izyum 2? I believe the argument of Moscow 42, vs stalingrad, was to force the Soviets to a head on clash when the Nazis still had a qualitative advantage.

This AAR is very entertaining. Lets see if PD takes Moscow, and see if it changes the overall equation. I for one am routing for PD (g).


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Post #: 656
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 9:30:43 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Well the quality of there new units is bad (40%). Thats why I keep hitting the and routing them. The question now is after a month of mud, how will they stand after there entrenchment...I fugure a November and December offence, after that Im going on defence...Of course if I bust it open I will run with it...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/28/2010 9:36:02 PM   
wiking62


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From: England
Status: offline 		Looking forward to your next screen shots Jon. I am eagerly awaiting my daily fix of your excellent AAR.

Steve

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Post #: 658
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/29/2010 6:18:44 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		(DAR) Well Steve this bone is for you... Both Kaluga and Ryazan were sacked. I have RR repair across the Oka now...I have alot of power and little time...As far as where the Soviet armor is, there in a reserve role popping there ugly heads and wearing me down...I really can't keep this up much longer, I cant burn up my armor...




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/29/2010 6:50:30 AM   
Neal_MLC

 

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Status: offline 		I would really love to see a level 4 screenie. I think level 4 is what I want. I would like to see as much of the front as I can and still see unit types.

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