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RE: English in Europe - 4/3/2010 10:54:12 PM

joeblack1862

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

I wish my usage of languages foreign to me was half as good as the usage of my native English by most foreigners.

That's not a limitation in you Greybriar or your countrymen, i would say it is all a matter of motivation and availability. When I lived in the Netherlands, everyday we watched television or listened to the radio and what did we hear? English all the time (and German because we were close to the border). My then Dutch girlfriend, was fluent in English and German and not bad at French. She was the one who put the idea to me that this accessibilty of the English language gave motivation to learn and the opportunity to hear it everyday. She spoke English with an American accent and sang with an American accent

.

I was lucky, I had the motivation and circumstances to learn foreign languages and so I did. I never felt the need to critisise the native speakers for what I perceived as poor grammar, I just listened to them and learned some interesting ways that they use their language, colloquialisms.

I guess I see people as individuals, all have a brain, all are capable in the right circumstances and with the right motivation.

I don't particulalry like some of the sweeping statements in this thread about certain "groups" of people being less than others because it doesn't make sense and is just plain elitism in my opinion. For example "it is almost always the the people from the UK who have appalling grammar", or pointing out a single mistake in one of my posts (here's anotherr feuw for yoo junk2 drive).

That's not my game, but feel free to find some more grammatical errors in my posts if you feel it makes your point

As they say in Liverpool, "Me? I can't be arsed"

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Post #: 31

RE: English in Europe - 4/3/2010 10:57:18 PM

junk2drive

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My apologies if I offended you.

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Post #: 32

RE: English in Europe - 4/3/2010 11:05:06 PM

joeblack1862

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

My apologies if I offended you.

I think we both feel strongly about something, and as such I don't except your apology... because none was needed

Now if you thought I had a point after all this writing, then that would be cool

edit:
Actually, that was pretty graceless of me, I accept the spirit in which the apology was made and I would also wish I have not offended you in any way.

< Message edited by Joe Black -- 4/3/2010 11:12:22 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: English in Europe - 4/3/2010 11:14:09 PM

ilovestrategy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JW

However, students who take two years of Spanish or French can not really speak Spanish or French. They can simply translate a few words and read a little of the language. Students not in the college prep program are not required to take a foreign language.

That's what happened to my 16 year old daughter. I asked her why after a year of Spanish she still could not speak any of it and she told me that course "just goes through the motions."

My wife was born and raised in the Philippines and speaks perfect text book English(She told me that they speak English in grade school all the way through college). When she first came here to the States in 1990(Damn, I've been married almost 20 years?

) she had problems understanding American English. Threw her for a loop.

I learned Tagalog from text books. I'll be speaking Tagalog with my wife and she'll stop me and tell me that no one speaks such and such word anymore, even though it's in the dictionary.

One thing I do have to say is that I was born and raised with English and everyone's grammar here puts mine to shame.

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Post #: 34

RE: English in Europe - 4/4/2010 2:46:23 AM

Zakhal

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Considering the english language my experience is mostly from internet but what I learned is that I never had problems with americans. I spent seven years talking with them on payd forum and the only conflict I ever had was with mexicans.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 4/6/2010 9:43:28 PM >

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Post #: 35

RE: English in Europe - 4/4/2010 10:10:12 AM

jackx

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I won't add much to the points already made by the other Germans, as they were fairly comprehensive - English skills are more or less expected, and when one is asked which foreign languages one speaks, the general implication seems to be "foreign languages in addition to English".
That point still seems lost on a large number of young people, whose English skills don't really extend beyond a crude mix of school English and whatever they picked up on the internet. Not that you can't communicate with that, but it's not necessarily English anymore - I think it was the BBC that had an article or even a series while back on how English as a lingua franca (and at a fairly high, i.e. business level, at that) could be notoriously hard to understand for native speakers... ;)

To be fair, however, one has to take into account that an increasing number of (young) people in this country are not actually native German-speakers, and English subsequently isn't the first foreign language they have to learn, but the second or even third.

For me, that second foreign French, and to be fair, I shouldn't claim to be able to speak that, as I hardly ever have need to do so, and my pronounciation is horrible because of it. I'm always a bit ashamed of that, since while I mainly need good reading comprehension for university, I live close enough to France to easily be able to hone my French if I wanted to. :(

Latin complements the package, but I have no love for that language, nor am I any longer very good at it, as GoodGuy already pointed out, it was required as a qualification to get into university in the first place, and hasn't been needed much since then.

And while I think it's admirable that most Germans, even those with a very limited grasp of English, do try to accomodate others by using it when possibl, the results sometimes just make me cringe, and if/when professional translators are available, such vile aural attacks should be avoided (yes, I'm looking at you, Mr. Oettinger >;)).

What's worse though, and really annoys me, is the often garbled translations one gets as part of the news, both on radio and TV. These usually come by way of voice-over a second or two into the foreign language being spoken, and more often than not, if you do actually understand what's being said by the foreign speaker, you'll quickly realize that there are subtle (or sometimes quite grave) differences in meaning. I could live with that if they blocked out the foreign language completely, but since it can still be heard behind the voice-over, it's like a constant reminder that they're getting it wrong.

I've had a friend from the US comment on that while he was staying in Germany, that was quite an embarassing moment... but I guess it doesn't say much about how Germans treat foreign languages, but rather more about how TV and radio stations try to cut costs... ;x

< Message edited by jackx -- 4/4/2010 10:19:55 AM >

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Post #: 36

Question - 4/4/2010 11:35:47 AM

hermanhum

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You mean like this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nebogipfel

Same here Vasquez,

Must have been years ago, I�ve seen a game manual written in the German language.

I didn�t care about my English language for many years. As I got back to wargaming, I recognized that it is important for me to improve my English skills. The use of the English language, for example, here at Matrix, is far better than in any playstation forum I�ve been so far.

So, meanwhile, I care about words I don�t know and use a translator. Sometimes,I think, it would be nice if someone would correct me if I�m wrong.

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Post #: 37

RE: Question - 4/4/2010 12:31:27 PM

Nebogipfel

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uhhh, that hurts ,

but that was exactly, what I asked for.

Seems to be the only way to improve my english skills.

thanks hermanhum

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Post #: 38

RE: English in Europe - 4/5/2010 12:36:41 AM

Joe D.

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From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Joe Black, yes I used a broad brush. What I have noticed is that when I see a poorly done post, too many times the poster lists UK as his/her location ...

What was that line from "My Fair lady"?
"Why can't the English speak English?" or lyrics to that effect?

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Post #: 39

RE: English in Europe - 4/5/2010 1:17:33 AM

105mm Howitzer

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Hi, quite a few left over after the original exodus down highway 401 to Toronto in the 70's.
By and large, English is tolerated in Quebec. They will answer in English in most large cities, but woe to you if you serve them in English. In Montreal, where one could get greeted ( first) in English, it has become a huge issue. I would say, however, language issues have definitely taken second stage to the Economy and political independance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

When it comes to people having problems with English, I would have to guess the people in Quebec are the most uptight about it.� Many of them still never forgave the Brits for winning that siege a few hundred years ago or so :P� And many still feel anything to do with English is a threat to their culture.� It wasn't that long ago that just posting a sign in English would get you arrested (no joke).� There are still places there that may still abide by that code (not sure now).� Anyone know what the current situation is over there? �

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Post #: 40

RE: English in Europe - 4/5/2010 1:25:23 AM

wodin

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Joe Black do you live in Liverpool? I am at the moment.

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Post #: 41

RE: English in Europe - 4/5/2010 1:49:25 AM

hgilmer3

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I'm not so sure the teaching of languages in all places in the USA is a novelty. I took French in High School and the teacher was from just outside of Paris and an excellent teacher. (Note: I have to make a confession that my great grandmother was Swiss French and spoke French fluently, and supposedly I was pretty good at it up until age 5 or so). Anyway, I went on to take French for two semesters in college from another teacher from France and became fairly fluent in it and took oral exams and did quite well. I also was able to read The Three Musketeers in French.

Of course, this could all be an exercise of the student as opposed to the general class. You only take out what you want to take out of your classes. I have not had any opportunity to use French, though, for 20 years and so am not up to par for it, if I may say so. I'm certain I could learn it/refresh it fairly quickly, though, if I took a few classes.

I am currently learning Japanese. Just to speak it. I am not sure I will ever try to learn how to write using Japanese lettering.

One thing I'll say about forums is that if you are hoping to go to forums to see correct usage of grammar at least in English, yes, you'll be disappointed. It is an informal medium and people are not as vigilant in using correct grammar and punctuation.

Anyway, my grandfather was from Poland and I know/knew a few curse words in Polish. Does that count as even another language?

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Post #: 42

RE: English in Europe - 4/6/2010 9:20:37 PM

joeblack1862

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Joe Black do you live in Liverpool? I am at the moment.

Sorry chap for not replying earlier, no I don't, I live in sunny Luton, but I am a lifelong Liverpool fan. Love the city to bits. I guess I would be called an OOT by some

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Post #: 43

RE: English in Europe - 4/12/2010 8:29:09 AM

Marc von Martial

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie
European girls love American G.I.s They can't get enough of them. Trust me on this one, I know.
If you're an American G.I., and you want to know what it feels like to have women fighting over you, you need to take a vacation in Europe.

And a time machine to go back to the 70s or 80s ;)

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Post #: 44

RE: English in Europe - 4/12/2010 8:34:28 AM

Marc von Martial

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

... Still, if you get to a German town, and say you'd ask for directions or help, many people (and not just youngsters) will try their best to reactivate their English and help.
That may be different in France, or say Italy.

To be fair, it has gotten an aweful lot better in both countries in the last 10 years or so.
I remember when in the early 90s you could barely talk english with french or italian people of your age. These days it is a lot better. Depending on the region though. I had not so much luck with english on Sicily last year

The French english accent, not saying a typical german one is any better, is making it hard though

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Post #: 45

RE: English in Europe - 4/12/2010 10:24:19 AM

joeblack1862

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Joe Black, yes I used a broad brush. What I have noticed is that when I see a poorly done post, too many times the poster lists UK as his/her location ...

What was that line from "My Fair lady"?
"Why can't the English speak English?" or lyrics to that effect?

Hmmmm... using a stage show / movie as evidence. Bet some people believe we can talk to the annals as well

Oh... and the U-571 really did happen, didn't it http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/781858.stm (off topic, sorry)

< Message edited by Joe Black -- 4/12/2010 11:01:28 AM >

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Post #: 46

RE: English in Europe - 4/12/2010 12:13:47 PM

Lieste

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

Still, if you get to a German town, and say you'd ask for directions or help, many people (and not just youngsters) will try their best to reactivate their English and help.
That may be different in France, or say Italy.

Yes it is different - in Italy (or at least Venice), if you get in trouble with your Italian, they mostly switch to German to help... which is hilarious when my grasp of German is even more tenuous than my Italian. Still, a winning smile, body language and a few simple phrases allow most transactions to take place - and if asking directions I always produced a map, and determined where I currently was and where my destination could be found and then went from there.

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Post #: 47

RE: English in Europe - 4/12/2010 11:12:02 PM

Knavery

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I'm curious why English is even considered the universal language now. Is it due to business? Is it due to the markets? Was it a decision brought on by the Pentaverate (some of you may get this)?

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Post #: 48

RE: English in Europe - 4/16/2010 9:03:48 PM

L�tzow

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English is considered as universal language due to the internet.

We had some English lessons this week - as part of my IT training - and I'm starting to realize how bad my grammar actually is. It's one thing to enhance your vocabulary by reading websites and newspapers, and another to master the rules of a foreign language. English has more verb tenses than German.

Anyway, I think it would be still good enough for war movies. I could contribute a genuine German accent and perfectly pronounce: Achtung!

< Message edited by L�tzow -- 4/16/2010 9:04:26 PM >

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Post #: 49

RE: English in Europe - 4/16/2010 9:21:22 PM

joeblack1862

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quote:

ORIGINAL: L�tzow
Anyway, I think it would be still good enough for war movies. I could contribute a genuine German accent and perfectly pronounce: Achtung!

Don't forget "AAARGHH!" in a good German accent as you get shot. Most war movies I have seen this seems to be what happens to the Germans

By the way, I have read a lot of your posts in the past (whilst lurking) and I think your grammar is good.

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Post #: 50

RE: English in Europe - 4/16/2010 9:48:10 PM

L�tzow

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe Black

Don't forget "AAARGHH!" in a good German accent as you get shot. Most war movies I have seen this seems to be what happens to the Germans

By the way, I have read a lot of your posts in the past (whilst lurking) and I think your grammar is good.

Thank you for your courtesy.

By the way, German accent also seems to be plus for a governor career or winning the oscar.

< Message edited by L�tzow -- 4/16/2010 9:50:49 PM >

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Post #: 51

RE: English in Europe - 4/17/2010 2:26:55 AM

Doggie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe Black

Don't forget "AAARGHH!" in a good German accent as you get shot. Most war movies I have seen this seems to be what happens to the Germans

.

If you pay attention, they tape generic conversations in german and use them in different movies and television shows. You will hear the same voice shouting the exact same commands in several different war movies. It's easier to keep them on tape an/d dub them in later than it is to find extras who speak german.

If you have seen Young Frankenstein you will recall the scenes on the train, where the passengers start out talking in English and then repeat the exact conversation in german as they cross the German frontier.

The secret agents in Mission Impossible spoke generic European. The bad guys in what ever country they were in spoke english with a translyvanian accent and the agents were so fluent zat zay vould never schuspect a thing.

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Post #: 52

RE: English in Europe - 4/17/2010 2:30:42 AM

Doggie

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Villians always speak English with a British accent, because everybody knows the English are evil. Who would believe Gomer Pyle as bad guy?

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Post #: 53

RE: English in Europe - 4/17/2010 7:27:11 AM

Nemo121

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Well, to give you an idea of some of what can happen with multi-lingualism in Europe... I had an interesting situation in work yesterday ( in Ireland ) where I had a German patient who required some emergency medical treatment but wasn't able to verify some crucial medical details so I ( born in Belgium and thus a native Flemish speaker but raised in Ireland since 6 - so learnt English and Irish - and having learnt German and French in secondary school/high school ) had to make a call to this German patient's doctor who had graduated from Medical school in Hungary ( where, presumably he was instructed in Hungarian ) and where we conducted our conversation through a mix of German and French as those were the two languages we had in common ( 90% German with 10% French for some German medical terms I wasn't familiar with ). I should also mention he had reasonably good English too although not in terms of medical jargon which was why we used mostly German and French.

Anyways my basic point is that in Europe many countries are effectively bilingual ( e.g. within the one country you'll find two languages in use although one will be by far the predominant one ) PLUS individuals in those countries tend to learn at least English and German/French in order to be able to communicate with foreigners. Several times I've found myself talking to other Europeans where neither of us know the other's native language but we find we have either English, German or French in common and then there's usually a shuffle to pick the language we both want to practice most ;-).

Occasionally I've even had the comic situation in which they might speak to me in English while I'd speak in French or German because I'd want to practice them while they'd want to practice their English and we'd clarify errors the other was making as they were talking. It's actually more organic and easier than that.

Overall though Europeans do make an effort to learn the major "common" languages. It isn't perfect and certainly the older generations aren't as good at this as the younger generations. The UK is also much worse at this than continental Europe as there's a bit of "just talk more loudly, more slowly and point a lot and Johnny Foreigner will figure it out"