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RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime

 
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RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/7/2010 3:17:09 AM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

Standard Laser Mark 0 starts at 100, is upgradable to 200 (at Mark 99) by increasing 1 point at a time, then at what would be the 201 improvement you get the Enhanced Laser Mark 0.

This way you use the parts longer, and its not a race to see how fast you can crash the programs all the time.

It would still be simple. The new componant is exactly the same as the Mark 99 version of the previous part, but now you can upgrade it another 99 times....etc etc.

That sounds a lot like the epic fail MOO3 had. Where you had to redesign all your ships every single turn!!!

Actually this wouldn't have been too bad if the upgrade was automatic (that is, laser 76 replaces all laser 77 automatically and immediately) and the improvements are only in things like damage or range (size and energy requirement could alter the amount you need and "break" the design requiring a redesign)
All you are saying though is that you want less technologies and that tech lasts longer... play with very slow research then.

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Post #: 91
RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/7/2010 7:26:58 AM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

Standard Laser Mark 0 starts at 100, is upgradable to 200 (at Mark 99) by increasing 1 point at a time, then at what would be the 201 improvement you get the Enhanced Laser Mark 0.

This way you use the parts longer, and its not a race to see how fast you can crash the programs all the time.

It would still be simple. The new componant is exactly the same as the Mark 99 version of the previous part, but now you can upgrade it another 99 times....etc etc.

That sounds a lot like the epic fail MOO3 had. Where you had to redesign all your ships every single turn!!!

Actually this wouldn't have been too bad if the upgrade was automatic (that is, laser 76 replaces all laser 77 automatically and immediately) and the improvements are only in things like damage or range (size and energy requirement could alter the amount you need and "break" the design requiring a redesign)
All you are saying though is that you want less technologies and that tech lasts longer... play with very slow research then.


Actually what I really want is a slow research system, but one that also takes care of the details for me. I like the idea of being able to set my budget for research by saying 'I'm going to specialize in lasers by giving 25% of the budget to that tech while leaving the other techs to split the remaining 75%.' This would be part of my perfect game, and it is merely a case of 'thinking out loud' here.

Automatic upgrade is an absolute must with a system such as this. Like you there is no way I'd like having to upgrade and retrofit every single mark improvement.

If a research system like this was to go into effect, you'd need an auto-upgrade/auto-retrofit system such as I described in some other thread. That is you set a % of budget to be spent upgrading, and the AI does what it can to get the best 'bang for buck' by constantly upgrading/retrofitting ships for you without you having to do anything.

So yes, I'd love it, but I also am a realist and know that this probably is not for DW.

< Message edited by Shark7 -- 6/7/2010 7:30:05 AM >


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RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/7/2010 8:46:24 AM   
taltamir

 

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but how is such a system improving the game compared to the current system?
Just slow research down even more, or mod out the highest end things so there are only 3 tech levels. or both.


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Post #: 93
RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/7/2010 4:23:23 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

but how is such a system improving the game compared to the current system?
Just slow research down even more, or mod out the highest end things so there are only 3 tech levels. or both.



Actually, what I like is an open-ended research system.

I'll explain.

Basically, I would do away with the components 'Laser, Blaster, Death Ray' and simply have techs such as 'Beam Weapons, Ballistic Weapons, Torpedo Weapons, etc'. These would be open ended techs, but there would be some type of curve that would make each point of improvement exponentially harder to achieve than the previous one. So long as you keep research funded, you keep making improvements over time.

There are no redesigns or retrofits (unless you want to change a design to carry more or less weapons or add types). But there would be an additional cost for maintainence as ships are automatically 'upgraded' as they visit fuel depots (that is as the tech improves, the ships automatically benefit from the breakthrough). You do not have to mess with it or redesign your ships every time you turn around.

You could even have multiple research areas on the same system.

Shields for example could research strength, power consumption and recharge. Lasers would research power consumption and damage, etc. These would not have to be 1 breakthrough = 1 point, but could even be a minor percentage. Say that your shield has a typical power consumtion of 200, at each breakthrough level you gain 0.5% improvement in this case you get 200 * 0.005 = 1 point of improvement. The next breakthrough would be 199 * 0.005 = .99 (you'd need to track a couple of decimal points).

As you can see with power consumption formula like this for more RP expenditure you actually get a diminishing return...it will always cost power, and the more you improve it, the less the next improvement will gain. Some aspects (the ones that reduce starting stats) would eventually hit a point where an improvement would show no actual improvement gain. With carefull balance of RP requirements you would eventually hit a point where the systems stabilize, but always allow you to continue improvement, though with an RP cost so high the game would be over before you hit the next advancement point. Basically it is a soft-cap system.

Anyway, this is a dream, little more. But I thought I'd try to explain the system I favor...again I am not adding this to the wishlist thread...this system would likely be satisfying to only myself and a small percentage of others.

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RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/7/2010 6:39:11 PM   
taltamir

 

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this is interesting system... its very much not DW though.

I don't think it should increase costs of ships as you improve it, that would cause issues.
Basically, if your guys invented an improvement that reduces power consumption by ~1% (aka, improve efficiency), you could just say "ok, so since the reactor delivers X watts to it we just pump more energy through it for more damage"
And I think certain areas should not improve at all (namely, do not reduce power consumption or size)... a 5MW laser does more damage to the enemy the more efficient it gets. You could say "its the same damage but less power"... and that would be true, but you could at the same time run more power through it to get more damage. It forces redesign to alter power, size, or cost.
But range, damage, to hit, etc can be improved and have an interesting and valid system. Just a very different system from other games on the market, this type of experiment is not something DW Should go towards directly... maybe something for moders to experiment with.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 6/7/2010 6:42:56 PM >


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RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/7/2010 7:51:05 PM   
Yarasala

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

but how is such a system improving the game compared to the current system?
Just slow research down even more, or mod out the highest end things so there are only 3 tech levels. or both.



Actually, what I like is an open-ended research system.

I'll explain.

Basically, I would do away with the components 'Laser, Blaster, Death Ray' and simply have techs such as 'Beam Weapons, Ballistic Weapons, Torpedo Weapons, etc'. These would be open ended techs, but there would be some type of curve that would make each point of improvement exponentially harder to achieve than the previous one. So long as you keep research funded, you keep making improvements over time.

There are no redesigns or retrofits (unless you want to change a design to carry more or less weapons or add types). But there would be an additional cost for maintainence as ships are automatically 'upgraded' as they visit fuel depots (that is as the tech improves, the ships automatically benefit from the breakthrough). You do not have to mess with it or redesign your ships every time you turn around.

You could even have multiple research areas on the same system.

Shields for example could research strength, power consumption and recharge. Lasers would research power consumption and damage, etc. These would not have to be 1 breakthrough = 1 point, but could even be a minor percentage. Say that your shield has a typical power consumtion of 200, at each breakthrough level you gain 0.5% improvement in this case you get 200 * 0.005 = 1 point of improvement. The next breakthrough would be 199 * 0.005 = .99 (you'd need to track a couple of decimal points).

As you can see with power consumption formula like this for more RP expenditure you actually get a diminishing return...it will always cost power, and the more you improve it, the less the next improvement will gain. Some aspects (the ones that reduce starting stats) would eventually hit a point where an improvement would show no actual improvement gain. With carefull balance of RP requirements you would eventually hit a point where the systems stabilize, but always allow you to continue improvement, though with an RP cost so high the game would be over before you hit the next advancement point. Basically it is a soft-cap system.

Anyway, this is a dream, little more. But I thought I'd try to explain the system I favor...again I am not adding this to the wishlist thread...this system would likely be satisfying to only myself and a small percentage of others.

I'm one of the group who likes the current system more, although that could do with some improvements.
Your systems sounds very like the SEV system to me. I found that tedious, I like it more when research is about significant breakthroughs and discoveries, and that's simply not the case when every research "success" brings only one point more damage or something like that. The MoO2 system with a lot of very different components was neraly ideal for me in this respect (apart from the fact that some components that were quite useless).
On the other hand, when at the end of the research tree, I could live with a system that works like you describe but only begins then.

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Post #: 96
RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/7/2010 8:06:09 PM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yarasala
I'm one of the group who likes the current system more, although that could do with some improvements.
Your systems sounds very like the SEV system to me. I found that tedious, I like it more when research is about significant breakthroughs and discoveries, and that's simply not the case when every research "success" brings only one point more damage or something like that. The MoO2 system with a lot of very different components was neraly ideal for me in this respect (apart from the fact that some components that were quite useless).
On the other hand, when at the end of the research tree, I could live with a system that works like you describe but only begins then.


I agree with pretty much all you said :P

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Post #: 97
RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/7/2010 10:23:16 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yarasala
I'm one of the group who likes the current system more, although that could do with some improvements.
Your systems sounds very like the SEV system to me. I found that tedious, I like it more when research is about significant breakthroughs and discoveries, and that's simply not the case when every research "success" brings only one point more damage or something like that. The MoO2 system with a lot of very different components was neraly ideal for me in this respect (apart from the fact that some components that were quite useless).
On the other hand, when at the end of the research tree, I could live with a system that works like you describe but only begins then.


I agree with pretty much all you said :P


Like I said, I'm not advocating moving DW to this system, hence why I will never put this in the wishlist thread. Just explaining what my idea of the best research system would be. If I was making my own game, that is the system I would use, but DW is not my game, and my tastes for the system could be quite unique.

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RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/8/2010 6:38:28 AM   
taltamir

 

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fair enough

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RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/9/2010 12:59:49 AM   
JosEPhII


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[{quote]taltamir wrote:That sounds a lot like the epic fail MOO3 had. Where you had to redesign all your ships every single turn!!! [/quote]

No you didn't! 

Only when major tech advance was achieved. And generally when you had several advances to combine for an new line. And you used the older designs for Piracy control, Antaran X Expeditions, and added system defenses. You could scrap them but they definitely had better uses. Go to the Atari MoO3 forum and read the Gen. Disc. sub forum thread Evon1.2.5.

JosEPh  


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RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/9/2010 5:13:13 AM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JosEPh_II

quote:

taltamir wrote:That sounds a lot like the epic fail MOO3 had. Where you had to redesign all your ships every single turn!!!


No you didn't! 

Only when major tech advance was achieved. And generally when you had several advances to combine for an new line. And you used the older designs for Piracy control, Antaran X Expeditions, and added system defenses. You could scrap them but they definitely had better uses. Go to the Atari MoO3 forum and read the Gen. Disc. sub forum thread Evon1.2.5.

JosEPh  


You "had to" in terms of "there was new micro advances in tech every turn that you could apply to your ship designs to make them better, but if you didn't redesign you would not benefit from the new tech"...
You could make do with outdated ship designs, but my point was that the system of a million tiny updates was made out of epic fail.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 6/9/2010 7:55:38 PM >


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RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/9/2010 2:55:14 PM   
BigWolfChris


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No idea if it's been thought of
But personally I would like to see a mixture of Gal Civ 1 and Space Empires IV with components

Basically put, there would be major advancements and minor advancements

Major advancements would be new components (or even major improvements to current components)
These would require redesigns and retrofits, and would happen now and again

Then you would have Minor advancements, which would be geared to improving efficiency of current existing components
These would not require redesigns or retrofits, since the improvement would be automatically added

For example:
For Lasers -
Titan Beam Lvl 1, Titan Beam Lvl 2, Titan Beam Lvl3
Lvl 1 would be the major as the discovery of the component, while Lvls 2 & 3 would be minor as improvements to the component

You could even expand this
Titan Beam, Titan Beam Improved Range, Titan Beam Improved Damage, Titan Beam Faster Fire, etc


You could even get general techs that increase efficiency of all related techs, like reactor output, or hyper drive energy use

End of the day, it's all math, and providing it's designed correctly, would be straight forward to do and would allow for the tech tree to be extended without much hassle in the area of ship or base design
Infact, you could keep the current components, but just insert minor techs into the tree, zero extra components, zero extra graphics, and with the advantage of allowing races to give minor improvements to ships without the overhead of redesigning or retrofitting


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RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/9/2010 7:57:30 PM   
taltamir

 

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@BigWolf: those are some very nice ideas. and I think they would work out nicely.
Just as long as the minor advancements are such that you don't benefit from a redesign (since the AI Would redesign, and you would feel like you are forced to constantly redesign).

This means increasing range and damage and maybe rate of fire.
but leaving size and energy unmodified.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 6/9/2010 7:58:01 PM >


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RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/9/2010 11:08:12 PM   
BigWolfChris


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Tbh, the thought is, size would remain unaffected, but energy would still get lowered, but at such a minor amount that would take multiple minor advancements to actually benefit from a redesign
At the same time, you could need 2 minors for the weapons energy efficiency, as well as a minor in reactor efficiency for a retrofit to be worth the effort

End of the day, games are about numbers, it's just a case of getting the right numbers into play to make it all work and stay fun


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RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/10/2010 7:03:44 AM   
taltamir

 

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the problem with lowering energy:
1. It requires a redesign
2. With a directed energy weapon lower energy is the same as higher damage. What do I mean? you are actually improving efficiency, efficiency determines what percentage of energy goes to damage and what is wasted. If you improve efficiency you can either keep the same specs and do more damage... or you can reduce size and power consumption and do the same amount of damage.

This isn't just realistic, its also a better game design mechanic.

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Post #: 105
RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/10/2010 8:03:35 AM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

the problem with lowering energy:
1. It requires a redesign
2. With a directed energy weapon lower energy is the same as higher damage. What do I mean? you are actually improving efficiency, efficiency determines what percentage of energy goes to damage and what is wasted. If you improve efficiency you can either keep the same specs and do more damage... or you can reduce size and power consumption and do the same amount of damage.

This isn't just realistic, its also a better game design mechanic.


Plus with energy reduction you eventually hit a brick wall...that being zero...so that no improvement can be made. Granted Zero should not be possible, but...you'd eventually have to have a stopping point.

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Post #: 106
RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/10/2010 8:13:28 AM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

the problem with lowering energy:
1. It requires a redesign
2. With a directed energy weapon lower energy is the same as higher damage. What do I mean? you are actually improving efficiency, efficiency determines what percentage of energy goes to damage and what is wasted. If you improve efficiency you can either keep the same specs and do more damage... or you can reduce size and power consumption and do the same amount of damage.

This isn't just realistic, its also a better game design mechanic.


Plus with energy reduction you eventually hit a brick wall...that being zero...so that no improvement can be made. Granted Zero should not be possible, but...you'd eventually have to have a stopping point.


The 100% efficiency... where 5000 watts of power yields 5000 watts of energy delivered to the opponent.
100% efficiency is theoretically impossible to achieve though.

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Post #: 107
RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/10/2010 8:16:49 AM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

the problem with lowering energy:
1. It requires a redesign
2. With a directed energy weapon lower energy is the same as higher damage. What do I mean? you are actually improving efficiency, efficiency determines what percentage of energy goes to damage and what is wasted. If you improve efficiency you can either keep the same specs and do more damage... or you can reduce size and power consumption and do the same amount of damage.

This isn't just realistic, its also a better game design mechanic.


Plus with energy reduction you eventually hit a brick wall...that being zero...so that no improvement can be made. Granted Zero should not be possible, but...you'd eventually have to have a stopping point.


The 100% efficiency... where 5000 watts of power yields 5000 watts of energy delivered to the opponent.
100% efficiency is theoretically impossible to achieve though.


Good thing I don't believe in theories, eh? I tend to look at things with the 'Impossible just means no one has done it yet' mentality. You never know till you try.

Still in game, getting to 100% efficiency in any aspect should be the end game and very, very hard to attain.

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RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/10/2010 8:19:47 AM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

the problem with lowering energy:
1. It requires a redesign
2. With a directed energy weapon lower energy is the same as higher damage. What do I mean? you are actually improving efficiency, efficiency determines what percentage of energy goes to damage and what is wasted. If you improve efficiency you can either keep the same specs and do more damage... or you can reduce size and power consumption and do the same amount of damage.

This isn't just realistic, its also a better game design mechanic.


Plus with energy reduction you eventually hit a brick wall...that being zero...so that no improvement can be made. Granted Zero should not be possible, but...you'd eventually have to have a stopping point.


The 100% efficiency... where 5000 watts of power yields 5000 watts of energy delivered to the opponent.
100% efficiency is theoretically impossible to achieve though.


Good thing I don't believe in theories, eh? I tend to look at things with the 'Impossible just means no one has done it yet' mentality. You never know till you try.

Still in game, getting to 100% efficiency in any aspect should be the end game and very, very hard to attain.


Impossible as in "time travel is impossible" and "magic is impossible" type of impossible.

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Post #: 109
RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 6/10/2010 2:45:54 PM   
BigWolfChris


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I see what you mean Tal
But I was thinking with efficiency it would happen rarely and still be fairly small, in order to need a couple of minor techs to make a difference
But range + damage modifiers would be a must
Hell, you could even call that efficiency modifiers, but wording it as the same amount of energy give higher range and damage

It's basically the same thing (equal energy = more range/damage) either way, but to think about it, keeping the energy number per component would, as you say, would probably be better

I'm wondering if it would be worth allowing modifiers to make components cheaper as well?
But I've not played since 1.03, so I don't know how the new economy handles, I remember it being stupidly easy then, so if it still is, a price modifier would serve little purpose


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Post #: 110
RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 10/21/2010 10:18:35 PM   
adecoy95


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if you dont think that the ai can handle custom ship designs, try not designing them, use the regular ships. if you still want to design your own ships, but dont want to steamroll the ai (as bad), try building ships that do not go over the size of the base non custom ships of the same class

< Message edited by adecoy95 -- 10/21/2010 10:19:34 PM >

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Post #: 111
RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 10/27/2010 7:52:50 AM   
diablo1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lordxorn

GalCiv 2 AI designed the latest ships.


It also designs ships based on what it has discovered the player is using so if you build heavy torpedo ships it will counters with heavy ECM equipment. GC2 is the best 4x game out there as far as AI goes. It's one of the few games that "learns" as the player custom builds more radical ship types.

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Post #: 112
RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 10/27/2010 8:14:44 AM   
Aures

 

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Well I wouldn't go too overboard about GC2's AI system. Sure it can be challenge, but only if you let the AI cheat to a ridiculous extent (before I stopped playing I was using furthest difficulty setting to the right but one). With ships the main way the AI cheats is by being able to build much bigger ships than you can. I will admit the AI did seem fairly good at designing many different ships to make the most of the available space (though it often built ships that were way over-engineered for what was needed, actually counting against the AI economic advantage). DW could probably learn something about AI designed ships from the GC2 system.

If you set the difficulty to whatever puts you on par with the AI in GC2 you can whoop it easier than you can DW's AI. In DW the only way you can get the AI to cheat is by giving it a better starting position relative to you and raising your own corruption.

Having code that causes the AI to alter their designs in response to your weapon loadout is cool, but it is just a special piece of code related to the rock-paper-scissors weapons system. Afaik the AI in GC2 doesn't have any generalised learning capability. The ability to play rock-paper-scissors hardly qualifies it as the best 4x AI.

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