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RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/30/2010 4:51:18 AM

Keston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pipewrench

If you reaching out too far the colony will only become a burden due too shipping costs and safe transit lanes. It will force the player to be very selective as fuel and strategic materials could wipe inventory and bankrupt the economy if poor areas are selected.

Yes, and for this to be interesting and enjoyable the game AI must present the decisions for selection and necessary information for the player's attention, with recommendations/option (and not pop-up blocking all other action)!

(in reply to Pipewrench)

Post #: 151

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/30/2010 3:38:49 PM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
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From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keston

quote:

ORIGINAL: pipewrench

If you reaching out too far the colony will only become a burden due too shipping costs and safe transit lanes. It will force the player to be very selective as fuel and strategic materials could wipe inventory and bankrupt the economy if poor areas are selected.

Yes, and for this to be interesting and enjoyable the game AI must present the decisions for selection and necessary information for the player's attention, with recommendations/option (and not pop-up blocking all other action)!

Filter potential colonies by estimated shipping costs.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Keston)

Post #: 152

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/30/2010 5:41:41 PM

Dadekster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

you know, I just tried a game with normal speed colonization with the handicap of letting the AI design my ships (so my ships are equally as powerful/weak as the AIs)... One of the AIs got lucky and scored way of darkness AND a fleet of capital ships early on and gave me tons of grief for most of the entire game (and the others, it personally annihilated half the other AIs!)

I ended up actually utilizing the colonization tech. finding and conquering races that can colonize every planet type is a lot harder when you can't slaughter their entire fleet with one of your ships.

I haven't had this happen to me yet but since you have do you feel that some of this stuff makes for a bit of an unbalanced game? I know there were two variables in that they had a fleet of percursor ships and a advanced government so maybe the effect was bigger that usual but what are your thoughts on it?

I guess there are two ways to look at it in that one, it adds a bit of a random anything goes factor into the game and two, it just makes for too much unbalance/power based on random goodie huts. Thoughts?

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 153

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/30/2010 6:12:41 PM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dadekster

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

you know, I just tried a game with normal speed colonization with the handicap of letting the AI design my ships (so my ships are equally as powerful/weak as the AIs)... One of the AIs got lucky and scored way of darkness AND a fleet of capital ships early on and gave me tons of grief for most of the entire game (and the others, it personally annihilated half the other AIs!)

I ended up actually utilizing the colonization tech. finding and conquering races that can colonize every planet type is a lot harder when you can't slaughter their entire fleet with one of your ships.

I haven't had this happen to me yet but since you have do you feel that some of this stuff makes for a bit of an unbalanced game? I know there were two variables in that they had a fleet of percursor ships and a advanced government so maybe the effect was bigger that usual but what are your thoughts on it?

I guess there are two ways to look at it in that one, it adds a bit of a random anything goes factor into the game and two, it just makes for too much unbalance/power based on random goodie huts. Thoughts?

Those random fleets might be very unbalancing... the thing is, there are dozens of AI empires and there is only one of you...
So the chances of YOU being the one to find those? very low... its usually one of the AIs that finds them, which then it uses them to conquer all the other AIs and give you grief.
That was a 100 star map though... on a larger map there would be enough of those that everyone could have a good chance of finding them... but also, it would be less likely someone will find them right off the bat (since they would be more planets to explore)

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I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Dadekster)

Post #: 154

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/31/2010 1:32:44 PM

Locarnus

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From: Earth, Sol
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Ave,

reading all those suggestions about the colonization problem, I made a post in the wishlist thread (page 24).

The basic is, to seperate the full colonization of an at least partly suitable planet (eg desert for humans)
and the colonization of another solid planet (eg vulcan for humans).

While even a small colony for the former should be self-sustaining and working as it is now, in the latter case it should only be doable by some kind of biosphere.
This biosphere colonization means, that there is a tight pop cap (eg 30mio) possibly expanding by hab technology.
It also means that those biosphere colonies cost some kind of state upkeep (permanently), to maintain the structures as well as the colonists (by definition a not hospitable planet lacks some vital resources for this species, eg water, atmosphere, climate control, gravitation aso...).

This would also solve the issue of claiming systems without a hospitable planet within.
That a colony ship transporting eg 10 mio people and providing the resources for a colony/biosphere should cost more than some cruiser is also obvious.
Imho a colony module the current size should provide only 1mio people, taken from the constructing planet, for 10mio about 10 times the current costs should be paid, as was also proposed earlier.
Otherwise it was just too simple to just take over a mini reptilian colony with 20mio pop and spam an endless stream of colony ships to get all those ice moons or whatever. Therefore the biosphere colonies still have some purpose even after having a bunch of minors within the empire.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 155

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/31/2010 1:51:24 PM

taltamir

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10x the cost for a colony ship with 10x the pop when you require that it REMOVE said pop from the planet that built it makes NO SENSE!
If colony ships stop producing colonists out of thin air, then there is no reason to EVER pay more for a colony ship... because passenger ships could and would easily make up any deficit by moving people around.
It also makes the loss of a colony ship devastating, its very expensive AND carries many precious citizens...

Also, an expensive colony with very low cap has its own problems... sure you can CLAIM a system without the right species... but its too costly so you still need to go out and acquire said species. So nothing really changed, everyone rushes to acquire species.
Besides... if you see an alien claiming planets in systems you could not you know exactly where to find a race you should conquer... start a "border skirmish" (war, conquer a few planets, reconcile) and then spread those far and wide.

The biggest complaint people had was that you had to spam colonies, and the more you spammed the better, and there was no limit to how much you spam... actually, I said was but it should be IS, that is the current state.
Rather then start out with very convoluted and complex solutions that might cause a lot of damaging unforseen consequences, it would be safer to start with smaller changes...

I say, start by making colony ships pickup colonists rather then create colonists... then let people play some games with that to see how things work out now. (this will also give some use to passenger ships, right now they are not very useful aside from brining passengers to resorts).
After people have a chance to get a better feel to what the effects of this are, we could go forward and make suggestions of further tweaks as needed.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/31/2010 1:53:17 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Locarnus)

Post #: 156

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/31/2010 2:01:21 PM

Locarnus

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From: Earth, Sol
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sorry, maybe wrong expression

wanted to propose that 1 colony module, holding 1mio people costs about what it costs now
if you want to send 10mio people, build a ship with 10 modules, for 10 times the current costs

imho the problem of the rush does not only stem from the thin air issue.
when fixing the thin air issue without increasing the costs this would mean to further increase the effect of an independent colony, because such colony would provide much more people to spam colony ships from.
without financial restriction an empire without independents is even more hampered in relative terms than it is now since it nether has the race, nor the comparable manpower.
=> unnecessary creation of new balance problems, again in favor of the player

about the cost side, the thing is, that the state has to spend money to increase the reach of the private sector, a standard in most colonization efforts
and with the private sector utilizing the resources in the system, it feed back to the state after a while, possibly making the biosphere colony a worthy investment

< Message edited by Locarnus -- 5/31/2010 2:04:18 PM >

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 157

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/31/2010 2:14:58 PM

taltamir

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independant colonies are not problem though. The AI gets those as well, and often... AI empires are typically hetrogenous.

Currently independent colonies don't benefit you... UNLESS it is of a race that can colonize special planets and you have none of them yet. once you have a single planet with race X giving you ability to colonize planets of that type, you don't need the independent colonies anymore.

Financial restriction always exists, and this is no way favoring the player...

quote:

about the cost side, the thing is, that the state has to spend money to increase the reach of the private sector, a standard in most colonization efforts
and with the private sector utilizing the resources in the system, it feed back to the state after a while, possibly making the biosphere colony a worthy investment

Certainly, but:
1. unintended consequences.
2. how does it improve the game.
3. you are still better off getting race X to colonize said planet without a bioshpere.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/31/2010 2:15:30 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Locarnus)

Post #: 158

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/31/2010 2:42:25 PM

Locarnus

Posts: 287
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From: Earth, Sol
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

independant colonies are not problem though. The AI gets those as well, and often... AI empires are typically hetrogenous.

Currently independent colonies don't benefit you... UNLESS it is of a race that can colonize special planets and you have none of them yet. once you have a single planet with race X giving you ability to colonize planets of that type, you don't need the independent colonies anymore.

Financial restriction always exists, and this is no way favoring the player...

quote:

about the cost side, the thing is, that the state has to spend money to increase the reach of the private sector, a standard in most colonization efforts
and with the private sector utilizing the resources in the system, it feed back to the state after a while, possibly making the biosphere colony a worthy investment

Certainly, but:
1. unintended consequences.
2. how does it improve the game.
3. you are still better off getting race X to colonize said planet without a bioshpere.

well, i think the thin air problem is the main issue, due to the effects you have described
but only solving this main issue is imho not enough to end the colony rush.
If the costs do not rise the player is imho favored because the real benefits of a colony ship are extremely higher than the costs, not only in the long term but, and thats the problem, even in the short term, even when the thin air problem is resolved.
Especially in comparison with the building costs of a destroyer or similar.
Because the game does not use an EHE players are more likely to gain benfits from it and it is considerably harder to implement house rules like with the tech trading.

Why not make a check box for a colony module cost multiplier.
Very simple to implement, because it would only change a number eg 10fold. And anyone can have it as s/he wants.

granted the "biosphere colony" takes more valuable time/effort to implement

about your points
ad 1: if not specific, that can be the case for any correction/change, even for the thin air issue
ad 2: freedom of choice
what if i dont play with the "teeming" setting? then i m forced to conquer some AIs or be overrun
I can mark my territory without the need to conquer some independents.
Maybe you like to conquer, maybe others want to live more or less peacefully. Games like DW should leave that up to the player.
ad 3: Better off, yes, if you only consider efficiency.
But many on this forum do not play to efficiently conquer most of the universe. (Which is not too hard to do given the ai)
In fact, many may set house rules not to conquer as fast as possible, as efficient as possible.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 159

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/31/2010 3:18:25 PM

Barleyman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir
10x the cost for a colony ship with 10x the pop when you require that it REMOVE said pop from the planet that built it makes NO SENSE!
If colony ships stop producing colonists out of thin air, then there is no reason to EVER pay more for a colony ship... because passenger ships could and would easily make up any deficit by moving people around.
It also makes the loss of a colony ship devastating, its very expensive AND carries many precious citizens...

You're talking like colonizing another planet shouldn't be expensive undertaking with failure being devastating? That's how it is in most 4X games and it seems to work pretty good too.

Let's say the aim is to slow down colony spam - Making the ships expensive and fresh colonies resource/money sinks would force you to consider your options instead of spreading through the map like a proverbial locusts. Cf sword of the stars how this can work.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 160

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/31/2010 6:41:25 PM

Yarasala

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barleyman

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir
10x the cost for a colony ship with 10x the pop when you require that it REMOVE said pop from the planet that built it makes NO SENSE!
If colony ships stop producing colonists out of thin air, then there is no reason to EVER pay more for a colony ship... because passenger ships could and would easily make up any deficit by moving people around.
It also makes the loss of a colony ship devastating, its very expensive AND carries many precious citizens...

You're talking like colonizing another planet shouldn't be expensive undertaking with failure being devastating? That's how it is in most 4X games and it seems to work pretty good too.

Let's say the aim is to slow down colony spam - Making the ships expensive and fresh colonies resource/money sinks would force you to consider your options instead of spreading through the map like a proverbial locusts. Cf sword of the stars how this can work.

Agreed, like stated in another thread. Obviously that is an important point that a lot of players (at least of those who write in this forum

) want to see changed. And again I vote for a (moddable / optional) possibilty to reduce the range of ships drastically.

But I also like the possibility to (optionally) increase the price of colony ships. To make them take their pop from the planet instead of from thin air would be preferable, but surely harder to implement.

Btw, independent colonies *do* benefit you because the pop is higher and the colony gives you more profit faster.

I would also like an option to increase unrest the more different species are at the same planet (what may be further influenced by a tolerance setting per race and / or government type), but along with a possibility to somehow control which species goes where. This control doesn't need to be absolute, just a setting like "prefer colonists of race X" per planet would do if then passenger ships try to gradually ship race X to the planet and ship all other races away.

And, about the problem that you need certain races to colonize certain planet types: introduce terraforming tech like in so many other 4x space games (whatever terraforming is for a specific race

(in reply to Barleyman)

Post #: 161

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/31/2010 7:05:43 PM

Locarnus

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From: Earth, Sol
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

And, about the problem that you need certain races to colonize certain planet types: introduce terraforming tech like in so many other 4x space games (whatever terraforming is for a specific race ).

I think terraforming is implemented in this game better than in most others.
You can fully inhabit marsh and desert with research (read: terraforming ability) without biosphere.
But you can never convert a small ice planet/moon into something even partly resembling eg dune or even earth.

not enough mass -> not enough gravitation -> impossible to hold an atmosphere (and certainly not an oxigen/nitrogen one) regardless of terraforming scifi, just 6th grade physics

terraforming means (in the widest sense) to form a celestial object (and most likely only a layer some tens of kilometers thick), within the laws of physics

I understand that one aspect of scifi is to bend or even break some physical rules or current understandings of those, but I m quite happy when it is not done too much too often
reptilians on ice planets without atmosphere is cruel enough...
then rather the silicoids from moo2...

(in reply to Yarasala)

Post #: 162

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/31/2010 7:27:36 PM

Yarasala

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Locarnus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

And, about the problem that you need certain races to colonize certain planet types: introduce terraforming tech like in so many other 4x space games (whatever terraforming is for a specific race ).

I think terraforming is implemented in this game better than in most others.
You can fully inhabit marsh and desert with research (read: terraforming ability) without biosphere.
But you can never convert a small ice planet/moon into something even partly resembling eg dune or even earth.

not enough mass -> not enough gravitation -> impossible to hold an atmosphere (and certainly not an oxigen/nitrogen one) regardless of terraforming scifi, just 6th grade physics

terraforming means (in the widest sense) to form a celestial object (and most likely only a layer some tens of kilometers thick), within the laws of physics

I understand that one aspect of scifi is to bend or even break some physical rules or current understandings of those, but I m quite happy when it is not done too much too often
reptilians on ice planets without atmosphere is cruel enough...
then rather the silicoids from moo2...

Sorry, but "bending" (or rather extrapolating

) physics is just part of such a game. Install gravity generators on said ice moon, install artificial suns orbiting the planet in low orbits etc.
So you can always explain complete terraforming to yourself.
In MoO2 you could form completely new planets from asteroid belts. So if the planet doesn't suit you destroy it and reassemble the parts with advanced enough technology ...

(in reply to Locarnus)

Post #: 163

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/31/2010 7:52:33 PM

Dadekster

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That kind of stuff occurrs near the end of the game though near the end of the tech tree with sun destroyers and planet creation techs. I'd worry more about the beginning of the game (colony spamming) then the end although I do understand the point you are making.

I think a lot of this has to do with the philosophy/game design that the dev's intend. Do they want to make this a game where each colony is a precious thing where its loss will have implications or do they want it to be a game where unless you lose a whole sector you shouldn't flinch? It is over arching decisions like this that should determine things like colony expansion rate and so forth imo. As it is now I feel that planets on a single basis even in the early game are pretty throughaway, not counting your homeworld that is. Planets are indistinguishable from one another other than maybe the ones with ruins or unless it has one of the four coveted resources. So maybe colony spamming is what they want. If so it works.

(in reply to Yarasala)

Post #: 164

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/31/2010 11:16:13 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barleyman

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir
10x the cost for a colony ship with 10x the pop when you require that it REMOVE said pop from the planet that built it makes NO SENSE!
If colony ships stop producing colonists out of thin air, then there is no reason to EVER pay more for a colony ship... because passenger ships could and would easily make up any deficit by moving people around.
It also makes the loss of a colony ship devastating, its very expensive AND carries many precious citizens...

You're talking like colonizing another planet shouldn't be expensive undertaking with failure being devastating? That's how it is in most 4X games and it seems to work pretty good too.

Let's say the aim is to slow down colony spam - Making the ships expensive and fresh colonies resource/money sinks would force you to consider your options instead of spreading through the map like a proverbial locusts. Cf sword of the stars how this can work.

You misunderstand. I am saying that this will give you a choice:
1. use newest tech for devastating results.
2. use old tech to remove the devastating results.

If you want to implement such a thing you need to:
1. Hamstring passenger ships.
2. Make ALL colony modules cost about the same, so "upgrading" to higher tech will not be a great increase in risk and cost at no benefit.

It make no sense for a "higher tech level" colony module give you 10x the passenger capacity and 10x the cost... because that does NOT make it better, it makes it INFERIOR...

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/31/2010 11:17:41 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 165

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 6/1/2010 3:39:19 PM

Barleyman

Posts: 42
Joined: 5/12/2010
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quote:

I would also like an option to increase unrest the more different species are at the same planet (what may be further influenced by a tolerance setting per race and / or government type), but along with a possibility to somehow control which species goes where. This control doesn't need to be absolute, just a setting like "prefer colonists of race X" per planet would do if then passenger ships try to gradually ship race X to the planet and ship all other races away.

And, about the problem that you need certain races to colonize certain planet types: introduce terraforming tech like in so many other 4x space games (whatever terraforming is for a specific race ).

SoTS handles xenophobia and population control pretty well. 1st of all, you cannot shazam an alien culture into your empire just like that. You have to perform a series of rather expensive research projects to integrate aliens into your culture as productive members. Learning the language and later, trade is fairly simple but beyond that it gets more difficult.

If only the population control is bit cheesy as it should cause wild unrest to impose stright birth control policies.

A pretty drastic (and effective) way to cut down on the colony spam would be to limit colonization to the "master race" .. After all it's kinda cheesy you'd invest huge resources (well, in case of DW, very modest resources) to set up a new colony to alien species that would be liable to revolt and join another faction at a drop of a hat.

We've already been through the obvious culprits in creating locust colonization - Very cheap colony ships, can colonize with any species, new colonies are not money sinks and of course, colonists being cloned. Very elegant solution to the latter problem would be to make colony ships recruitable like troops are.

DW is sort of like socialist utopia where all species are immediately happily cooperating just like that.

(in reply to Yarasala)

Post #: 166

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 6/1/2010 3:50:23 PM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

quote:

ORIGINAL: Locarnus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

And, about the problem that you need certain races to colonize certain planet types: introduce terraforming tech like in so many other 4x space games (whatever terraforming is for a specific race ).

I think terraforming is implemented in this game better than in most others.
You can fully inhabit marsh and desert with research (read: terraforming ability) without biosphere.
But you can never convert a small ice planet/moon into something even partly resembling eg dune or even earth.

not enough mass -> not enough gravitation -> impossible to hold an atmosphere (and certainly not an oxigen/nitrogen one) regardless of terraforming scifi, just 6th grade physics

terraforming means (in the widest sense) to form a celestial object (and most likely only a layer some tens of kilometers thick), within the laws of physics

I understand that one aspect of scifi is to bend or even break some physical rules or current understandings of those, but I m quite happy when it is not done too much too often
reptilians on ice planets without atmosphere is cruel enough...
then rather the silicoids from moo2...

Sorry, but "bending" (or rather extrapolating ) physics is just part of such a game. Install gravity generators on said ice moon, install artificial suns orbiting the planet in low orbits etc.
So you can always explain complete terraforming to yourself.
In MoO2 you could form completely new planets from asteroid belts. So if the planet doesn't suit you destroy it and reassemble the parts with advanced enough technology ...

I've always been in the camp of "Enjoy the game and don't analyze it." That is, forget about what is real and possible and just enjoy the game for what it is, entertainment.

IF you take some of our favorite Sci-Fi movies...any human that shot lightning from his fingertips would 1) at the very least get nasty burns to said fingertips or 2) die, yet still I enjoy the Star Wars movies. I know that Palpatine coulnd't possibly shoot lightning from his fingertips in real life, but that does not spoil my enjoyment of the movies. I'm leaving the real world behind while I'm enjoying the movie. It's an escape from reality, which is a good thing now and then.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Yarasala)

Post #: 167