RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 12/7/2010 10:08:47 PM

Q-Ball

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I haven't posted in awhile because work is killing me. That's not necessarily a bad thing, too much is better than not enough these days, but I am on a project that is keeping me busy 'til 8 most nights, and on weekends.

Dan is posting pretty regularly it seems, so recounting action here might be redundant. I'll share some thoughts, and open it up to questions if anyone wants to know.

The highlights:

AIR WARS continue over India. I am overall about 1-1 , which isn't helpful for auto-victory, but I am staying in to bleed the Allied air. P-38s in particular I want to shoot down, and I am managing to keep those pools empty so far. The RAF is also really suffering. The ratios also changed because before I entered an attrition war, I pulled out all my best pilots; all the guys over Bombay are 50/70-ish rookies. (meaning 50 exp, 70 air skill, kind of my training standard).

SUBS continue to sink Allied xAKs. I got a TK off California awhile back, and CL ENTERPRISE is now reported sunk, after taking 2 torps awhile ago. Not sure if that's real, but the location looks right (entry box off Mombasa; she was hit near Socotra)
PANZERARMEE INDIA is advancing on Jalagon near Bombay, to clear some space before a last effort on Bombay

IN THE PACIFIC, I am assembling forces for a big operation, that is really just points hunting, and designed to force the Allies to come out and play.

STRATEGICALLY, I have no idea what the Allies are up to. I can't read any tea leaves, other than convoys are unloading at Karachi alot, and I see shipping around Canton Island, the Aleutians, all of which could mean something or nothing.

I have to assume Dan can move on anything, so I am garrisoning the usual spots, islands in the Pacific, etc. If I am paying particularly attention to anything, it's probably the KURILES (because Dan has done that before), SUMATRA (because that would obviously cut-off 12 divisions in India and would be a disaster), the DEI in general (because of the OIL), and CENTRAL PACIFIC, because that's the shortest route to Japan.

I consider the SOLOMONS, NEW HEBRIDES, and EASTERN NEW GUINEA as unlikely targets. It's not like Dan to go "the long way", and in 1943 at least, the Japanese don't mind slugging it out with LBA.

The only way to quickly respond to an invasion is Land-Based Air, so I have strategically placed Air HQs, Bettys, Zeros, plus some VALs for those bases that can't support torps.

OBJECTIVES: With all going on at work, I haven't had time to think about where I am going. I think Auto-Victory is out of reach. If it is, I am playing for the long-haul, which is a different game. I would dearly love to bring the USN CVs to battle, but that seems unlikely now on my terms, as there isn't anything I can attack that would require CVs to defend it.

I would do this game differently the next time, starting with taking SOCOTRA in the Indian Ocean. (I though it would trigger reinforcments, but too late found out it wouldn't) Or, even better, Invading Australia, which is much easier to isolate. I think I was playing a fast game up until April/May, when I got bogged down in India and didn't press a landing closer to Karachi, for fear of triggering a pile of reinforcements and not taking India. No idea how close I could have gotten, as I don't know how desperate Dan was in terms of troops in India. Maybe I overestimated this.

Anyway, I am assuming DAN has kept everyone up to date basically on the action, at least from his standpoint, so fire off questions if you like.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 12/7/2010 10:25:14 PM

witpqs

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If it's any consolation, even though Socotra doesn't trigger reinforcements it really should trigger them. So you played a better game by not going there.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 12/7/2010 11:37:46 PM

JohnDillworth

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Thanks for the update. Dan is pretty regular, but we appreciate the view from the other side. I think you could have been more aggressive in India in the beginning. You were going along fine but then bogged down outside Bombay. Although a landing at Karachi would have triggered reinforcements, Dan would have had no place to send them. I believe your might have run up enough points to make auto-victory at least within reach. He had no way to force you out as the KB is at least an equal match until 1943. one mans opinion.
Taking
Socotra would have been really interesting.

Work is good thing, but it sure is nice to see the occasional post from you

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/5/2011 9:46:40 AM

d0mbo

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Hi Q,

Hope you will find the time and inspiration to post for a bit what your intentions are after your minor setback in India. No doubt others will be very interested to hear from you as well, especially we JFB's.

Keep up the struggle!

Cheers,

d0mbo.

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Post #: 424

RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/19/2011 10:27:05 PM

Q-Ball

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I haven't posted in a long time; first, it was work, then getting into WITE.

The fact is I have lost this game. It's over. Through my indifference and sloppiness, and Dan's exploitation of that, I am going to lose approx. 7 Divisions in India. They are cut-off around Poona. I can't see surviving that type of hit. If I can get them to a coast and pull fragments, maybe I can keep going.

I have a bad attitude right now on this game, because I found this one pretty dull. It wasn't a Naval Game at all, just a badly abstracted land war in India, and not really very interesting. I should have gone for Karachi, because I could have lost 7 Divisions that way, and maybe one. But I haven't seen an Allied warship larger than a DD in harms way since January of 1942, or nearly a year ago in game terms. Yawn. That's probably the right strategy for the Allies, and a winning one. Not Dan's fault, he is a gracious opponent, just a good one who knows what it takes to win.

The IJN sits in port for lack of anything to do. I could load up an invasion for somewhere, but what's the point? I had several divisions prepped for Suva and they are still at Rabaul, but I decided that wouldn't buy me anything, just another outpost to defend, and possible exposure to losses. As it is, I need those troops to replace the ones lost in India.

Anyway, that as much as WITE is why I lost interest in this one. Once I got ashore in India, it got very boring.

The Smart Allied player will fortify Pearl Harbor, Sydney, Melborne, Karachi, and forget everything else. Whatever you do, don't take the fleet out of port. This is a winning strategy; the Japanese can get close in VPs, maybe 3:5 to 1 like I did, but you can't win Auto Victory without all of Australia or India, unless the Allies player does something stupid and tries to fight a Naval War.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 12:38:57 AM

John 3rd

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I can understand the frustration Q-Ball. Good thoughts!

I have argued many times that the aggressive Allied is the one who really wins due to the simple math. ANYTHING the Japanese lose is terrible while the Allies can lose nearly everything they have and still have parity by the end of 1943. Though bloody the Allied player should fight it out instead of Sir Robin.

The ground war is abstract and not very satisfying for those of us who play for the FLEET aspect. If I can bolster your thoughts though--there is no doubt that Dan will launch a counter-offensive sometime in the next few months of gametime and then the game will, once again, become quite exciting.

My .02...

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 1/20/2011 12:40:46 AM >

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 12:55:56 AM

JohnDillworth

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I think this one was a candidate for auto-victory if you went early, hard and fast for Karachi. Even if he had both Australian Divisions in India you could have taken it, and there was nothing he could have done in 1942 to take it back. You could have then mopped up the rest of India. I love reading your AAR's, and I am reading your WITE AAR's, and I like CR's too, so it's kind of like being friends with both your jilted wife and your hot , new girlfriend. I like them both, but it's a bit awkward

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 3:11:23 AM

Chickenboy

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I hear ya Brad. It's a tough call on some games. For those Allied players that really want to *win the game*, they'll adopt increasingly unrealistic defensive postures designed to safeguard from autovictory, but without semblance to real life exigencies. The "Sir Robin" taken to the extreme becomes "I'm not going on an offensive until 1944, when I get my cool toys."

When they turtle up for two years of game time, it's understandably dull. I would not begrudge someone that dropped a game where their opponent wanted to wait for two years of meaningless turn flipping to come out and fight. It's an unrealistic expectation that IJ players are expected to wait as long as it pleases the Allies to start fighting.

That being said, I don't think that is this scenario. Canoerebel is already on a general offensive in India and will likely be on an offensive elsewhere soon.

If you lose 5 divisions, you'll be back to even in a sense, considering that you start with a number of extra divisions in scenario 2. All's not lost, even if some of these troops don't make it back.

Where's that bad boy bushido bully? The (rising) sun will come up tomorrow.

Now, how to make him bleed? Nay. "Bleed" sounds too passive. Hemorrhage a warm gout. Yes, that's better.

C'mon. Kill! Kill! Kill!

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 3:16:09 AM

John 3rd

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What he said!

BANZAI!

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 3:20:58 AM

vicberg

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The real question is whether you are still enjoying WITPAE....if not, don't do it.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 9:59:44 AM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

The (rising) sun will come up tomorrow.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 10:13:22 AM

d0mbo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

The real question is whether you are still enjoying WITPAE....if not, don't do it.

Basically this. Let's just say I am very happy my opponent doesn't use this extreme Sir Robin tactic you encountered in your game (although we are playing stock #1), otherwise we might have the same problem. Perhaps I should give him credits for that when I send my next turn.......

Thanks for letting us know your thoughts, Q-ball.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 1:15:49 PM

FOW

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Unfortunately there are no 'political' consequences in WITP:AE for doing a major Sir Robin - unlike WITE

for the Axis:
a. If AGN fail to take three important towns the Finns capitulate.
b. If AGS is pushed back to Rumania that country changes sides, joining the Soviets

If the Sovs 'Sir Robin' then they:
a. risk giving the Axis a chance of autovictory by getting 290 Manpower centres (?)
b. don't gain combat experience thereby not getting some LCUs to gain 'Guards' status
c. giving the Axis more resources to continue the war
d. let the Finns remain in the game

Yes I too have been seduced by WITE

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 2:55:20 PM

John 3rd

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I would love to see some sort of game consequence for Sir Robin. Should be a way to GAIN VP by holding onto 'hot' sites for longer periods or something like that. ANYTHING that would encourage the Allies stand and fight as they did during the war.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 3:28:06 PM

obvert

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New here, but this is the first AAR I have followed throughout since getting addicted. I agree, when India turns into another China, and there is no naval action, I'd be bored stiff.

However, the strategy I've found most useful once an opponent turtles the navy is to wipe the board of transports. Couldn't the IJN move farther south and hit supply routes all over the pacific? With CVs? Using the scout cruisers and subs to find things. Better than port at least, right? And I find sending land and air down with the ship fun and satisfying.

I'm curious if there would be a drawback to this strategy, even from this point? At least you go out swinging. Make the tanker problem more severe.

As long as land air is strong in DEI, then any move there could at least take out some critical units, possibly even supporting CVs

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 3:53:29 PM

Mynok

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Biggest problem is the fuel that would be consumed.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 4:47:43 PM

janh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
I would love to see some sort of game consequence for Sir Robin. Should be a way to GAIN VP by holding onto 'hot' sites for longer periods or something like that. ANYTHING that would encourage the Allies stand and fight as they did during the war.

I wonder whether something like a "major loss of PP for the loss of certain cities before a given date" could be implemented as an option (at game start). Maybe even at the risk that PP sum up to negative values?

< Message edited by janh -- 1/20/2011 4:48:54 PM >

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 7:44:51 PM

crsutton

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Well, I enjoyed the AAR while it played out.

But you are in a roundabout way covering two issues that I have brought up and seen them shrugged off.

The first is autovictory. Your entire stragetic plan centered on an attack in India with the hope of pulling off an autovictory. Now that autovictory is out the window you find yourself overexposed and in a vulnerable position, and you have lost hope and sound like you want to bag it. Well, this is exactly why I hate the concept of AV. I have seen too many Japanese players in AE and WITP shoot for the moon, fall short, and then throw in the towel after 1943 comes around and they realized they have shot their wad. This is the perfect example. I really enjoyed you move into India. It was interesting because it has not been attempted and we all wanted to see what happened. I don't fault you for that it is just that the autovictory carrot caused you to play in an unrealistic manner. Hindsight being 20-20, you should have done the "short con rather than the long" Grabbing Celyon, killing a lot of soldiers and then bailing out late in the year when the pressure got too hot.

The second is scenario #2. You need to understand that given the extra resources (especially air superiorty into 1943) the Allied player has no choice but to play very cautiously until well into 1943. This does not mean a total bail out as my personal feeling is that would give the Japanese player too much of a chance to grab territory. However, my scen#2 mantra is anything but my carriers. That is, I will risk anything but my carriers unless I am in a position that is critical to me. Which means virtually never..... Your main axis has been into India. CR had no reason to risk his carriers there once he knew that you would not get AV as any carrier fight against the full KB in 42 is a recipe for disaster for the Allied player.

Given scen #2 and the real threat of AV, the loss of three or Allied carriers might have put you over the edge. Once again, here is an example of auto victory creating an artificial situation which dictates strategy. No AV threat and Canoe might have been more willing to come out and play.

Get rid of autovictory. I got no problem with the Japanese player having an equal chance of winning the game. But find another way to do it. There would have been no autovictory in real life anyways. It is silly to see it in a historical simulation such as this.

Considering that you have all your fleet elements and will only lose some infantry. (and you got extra infantry), I don't see your situation as so bad. With conversions and accelerations possible in the scenario, the Japanese player can still have a massive carrier fleet and match the Allied carrier fleet until the end of 1943. But if you heart is not into it then now is the time to negotiate peace. Perhaps ask a skilled Japanese player to take over for you.

Anyhow, it was fun to watch.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 8:35:25 PM

Capt. Harlock

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quote:

The Smart Allied player will fortify Pearl Harbor, Sydney, Melborne, Karachi, and forget everything else. Whatever you do, don't take the fleet out of port. This is a winning strategy; the Japanese can get close in VPs, maybe 3:5 to 1 like I did, but you can't win Auto Victory without all of Australia or India

What about the West Coast? If the Japanese help themselves to, for example, Vancouver, they can raid the Seattle area with CV's and LBA. The loss in shipping and destruction of HI should be a major step towards auto-victory. And it will be a strong-willed Allied player indeed who will not bring the fleet out for that!

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 10:25:00 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

What about the West Coast? If the Japanese help themselves to, for example, Vancouver, they can raid the Seattle area with CV's and LBA. The loss in shipping and destruction of HI should be a major step towards auto-victory. And it will be a strong-willed Allied player indeed who will not bring the fleet out for that!

Never Vancouver. The strait defenses at Victoria are among the best on the map. See my Emergency Reinforcement posts for what happened when I sailed many IJN heavies past Victoria. Glub, glub. You can't bring ships to Vancouver from the northwest either. Non-navigable water. You have to run the gauntlet.

Coal Harbour is doable as a strat bombing airbase and port. SeaTac traffic dead meat, and the Seattle industry is reachable.

Alfred's idea BTW. He has some good ones.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/20/2011 11:01:55 PM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
I would love to see some sort of game consequence for Sir Robin. Should be a way to GAIN VP by holding onto 'hot' sites for longer periods or something like that. ANYTHING that would encourage the Allies stand and fight as they did during the war.

I wonder whether something like a "major loss of PP for the loss of certain cities before a given date" could be implemented as an option (at game start). Maybe even at the risk that PP sum up to negative values?

Sounds like a decent idea.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/21/2011 1:30:37 AM

vicberg

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Though I don't like auto-victory, that's what is supposed to prevent sir robin.� The allies IRL were compelled to fight early and often and at inferior odds without future knowledge of what was coming and when.� That aspect of the war�is completely missed in this game because allies know what they are going to get and when and how much ground they can give up without risking auto-victory.� Auto-victory is supposed to force the allies to fight, but it doesn't go nearly far enough, imo.� No other way to stop sir robin.� If the political costs of complete retreat were much higher, allies wouldn't retreat.

< Message edited by vicberg -- 1/21/2011 1:31:05 AM >

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/21/2011 1:33:17 AM

vicberg

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If i were going to go a step further, I believe that political costs for losing bases should be variable...sure, allies can retreat, but after SRA and Solomons are obtained, it should be quite risky to simply run away.� Now, of course, the japs have far superior abilitites in this game than in IRL so that should be taken into effect, but a variable number assigned to each spot, would make it a very different game and overall a much more fun game, early, mid and late.

< Message edited by vicberg -- 1/21/2011 1:41:13 AM >

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/21/2011 2:19:28 AM

Q-Ball

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Thought we play for the "experience", VPs do loom there, and I have argued for awhile that the VPs in this game are skewed. Auto Victory is the only hope for Japan; after that, no hope for victory. I don't mean victory in the sense of signing a peace treaty on the deck of YAMATO in San Francisco bay, but rather some sort of "Better than expected" outcome, like Japan being only 1/2 BBQ'ed in late 1945, instead of full-on charred.

Gameplay favors Japan, and VP's favor the Allies. That's the situation.

I realize I still have a game even losing piles of ground troops, but it's just been kinda boring getting here. And I don't blame Dan, that's what you have to do in Scen #2, which I will never play again BTW, on the condition that Allied player feel compelled to bring out the fleet at some point.

Anyway, back to the grind.....

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/21/2011 2:49:51 AM

SuluSea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

However, the strategy I've found most useful once an opponent turtles the navy is to wipe the board of transports. Couldn't the IJN move farther south and hit supply routes all over the pacific? With CVs? Using the scout cruisers and subs to find things. Better than port at least, right? And I find sending land and air down with the ship fun and satisfying.

I'm curious if there would be a drawback to this strategy, even from this point? At least you go out swinging. Make the tanker problem more severe.

Against a seasoned opponent this should never happen. The allied player has enough picket ships to put in vital areas to the edges of maps and along his shipping lanes in the SE Pacific /SF to Pearl. In my last game my opponent tried to crack the shipping lanes 3 times and one ended in nothing sunk and two ended with some AMc's and a few low value Aks that were refueling the line shot up. My transports some being huge troop ferrys or tankers just scattered.

I actually found comfort every time the KB would run over trip wires because I knew where the opponents carriers were and went into overdrive elsehwere.

I'd caution about allied CVs just because they aren't striking the KB doesn't mean they aren't working or somewhere stalking, by October of '42 the allied player should be more than willing to engage if it's on allied terms.

My opinion could change on this but I believe the onus is on the Japanese side to do something to force the allied player to use his carriers earlier than he feels comfortable doing. I wouldn't think a land invasion of India accomplishes that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Thought we play for the "experience", VPs do loom there, and I have argued for awhile that the VPs in this game are skewed.

I have to agree here.

It's been entertaining to read Q and have always found your tips on the Imperial side useful. Hopefully the fire will come back. Take care my friend.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 1/21/2011 2:51:52 AM >

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/21/2011 4:35:30 AM

vicberg

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In face of sir robin, I believe the best strategy is to get the basic perimeter and then build/defend. Expanding into sopac, india, OZ is fun, but counter-productive with the VPs...save supplies, fuels, build airfields and forts and stack AF units. Extremely boring, but I've seen to many games of japanese over-expansion that creates more problems than it solves because there's simply too many allied avenues of counter-attack to cut off the expansion areas...defend a smaller area with good reaction forces...dull.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/21/2011 4:40:13 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

In face of sir robin, I believe the best strategy is to get the basic perimeter and then build/defend.� Expanding into sopac, india, OZ is fun, but counter-productive with the VPs...save supplies, fuels, build airfields and forts and stack AF units.� Extremely boring, but I've seen to many games of japanese over-expansion�that creates more problems than it solves because there's simply too many allied avenues of counter-attack to cut off the expansion areas...defend a smaller area with�good reaction forces...dull.�

Read several of my earlier posts to see why your proposal is an inferior means to garner the necessary VPs for auto victory.

Alfred

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/21/2011 4:49:15 AM

vicberg

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Against a good opponent, I don't believe auto-victory is acheivable, as the game is currently structured.

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 448

RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/21/2011 4:50:16 AM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

Yep, no argument that VP are skewed. But I doubt that many playtesters got that deep into the game to balance VP. Plenty of ways to work it out. I think that major Allied ship losses in 44 should count double and then triple in 45. The American public would have had a more difficult time with massive losses as the end of the war grew near. And sunk Japanese ships in 45 and 45 should count for much less. By 1945 they are just targets anyways and should not be a source of VP for the Allies. Lots of other easy ways to tweak VP. Also, if September 1945 comes along and the Allies dont have 10,000 AV on the Japanese mainland the best that they can do is a draw.... Lots of things.

Or, you could bid VP for the Allied side at the start of the campaign with the higest bidder getting the Allies but the bid counts against his VP total at the end.

Anyhow, I always tell my Japanese opponents not to worry about VP. Come 1945 I will count my sunk carriers and know if I lost the game or not.....

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(in reply to vicberg)

Post #: 449

RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 1/21/2011 4:52:00 AM

Xxzard

Posts: 440
Joined: 9/28/2008
From: Arizona
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Holding the basic perimeter will not result in an auto victory, I think we know that. Perhaps what vicberg meant to say is that a strong defense is better in the strategic long run, aside from the auto victory parameters.

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(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 450

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