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RE: Business Model - 7/16/2010 1:56:04 AM   
htuna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: t001001001

The developer should've stayed out the price argument...his curt "we're happy with sales and the price will not be falling" statement was an "in yer face" comment and just made me dig my heals in


He's explaining to you that retailers generally do not discount products that are already selling well.




I'm with Judge on this one.. I was on the fence, even though I had not yet paid 80 for a game yet.. but the reviews were so good.. but the 'smug' way that comment was made.. That shut the door for me.. I don't even think of buying now.. maybe two years from now if it's reasonable during the Xmas sale.. but now.. no interest


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Post #: 61
RE: Business Model - 7/16/2010 2:59:02 AM   
axisandallies


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quote:

ORIGINAL: t001001001

The developer should've stayed out the price argument...his curt "we're happy with sales and the price will not be falling" statement was an "in yer face" comment and just made me dig my heals in


He's explaining to you that retailers generally do not discount products that are already selling well.



Not true, ever been to a grocery store?

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Post #: 62
RE: Business Model - 7/16/2010 3:15:02 AM   
axisandallies


Posts: 329
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		In retail when something new comes out we put it on sale. then take if off sale after awhile and then by word of mouth people end up buying it. I have no problems with Matrix games, their customer service is outstanding and for that alone I'm a life long member. I would pay $80 for some games but not this game.

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Post #: 63
RE: Business Model - 7/16/2010 4:26:18 AM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
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From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		This article is interestinghttp://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/.../UnNews:Why_Game_Developers_should_STFU_about_'Used_Games'

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Post #: 64
RE: Business Model - 7/16/2010 4:30:23 AM   
NefariousKoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

This article is interestinghttp://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/.../UnNews:Why_Game_Developers_should_STFU_about_'Used_Games'


quote:

Error 404: Page not found!



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Post #: 65
RE: Business Model - 7/16/2010 4:36:06 AM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
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From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		sorry about that,says go to main page,un news ,july 16

< Message edited by bairdlander -- 7/16/2010 4:40:28 AM >

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Post #: 66
RE: Business Model - 7/20/2010 10:24:28 PM   
SlickWilhelm


Posts: 1854
Joined: 7/22/2007
From: Rochester, MN
Status: offline 		As long as Matrix Games continues to offer what I consider the best customer service in the industry, I will continue to make all of my wargame purchases from them, even though I could find them cheaper somewhere else. Their willingness to host this forum is another reason to remain loyal to Matrix Games.

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Post #: 67
RE: Business Model - 7/20/2010 11:54:49 PM   
RangerX3X


Posts: 399
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

Their willingness to host this forum is another reason to remain loyal to Matrix Games.



Are you serious?

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Post #: 68
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 5:43:45 AM   
E

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerX3X

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

Their willingness to host this forum is another reason to remain loyal to Matrix Games.



Are you serious?


I whole-heartedly concur with Slick Wilhelm.

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Post #: 69
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 3:27:46 PM   
SlickWilhelm


Posts: 1854
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerX3X

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

Their willingness to host this forum is another reason to remain loyal to Matrix Games.



Are you serious?


Well, not very often...but in this case, yes. Do you think it's cost-free and time-free to maintain a forum like this? I hardly think so. This is the only forum where I'm a "regular", and I appreciate that Matrix Games provides a place for us to discuss wargames.

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Post #: 70
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 3:46:26 PM   
wworld7


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Status: offline 		Let us not forget the time Erik has to spend baby-sitting us. There again what better way could he have to spend those "extra" hours?

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Post #: 71
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 5:15:15 PM   
diablo1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

Let us not forget the time Erik has to spend baby-sitting us. There again what better way could he have to spend those "extra" hours?


You mean when he's not sitting in his pile of gold and silver like Donald Ducks grandpa tossing it over his head over and over screaming "I'm Rish!", "I'm Rish!", I'm Rish!"

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Post #: 72
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 5:58:35 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

Let us not forget the time Erik has to spend baby-sitting us. There again what better way could he have to spend those "extra" hours?


You mean when he's not sitting in his pile of gold and silver like Donald Ducks grandpa tossing it over his head over and over screaming "I'm Rish!", "I'm Rish!", I'm Rish!"


Its Scrooge McDuck man,.............

Now about the BftB game and its price, and the greed that causes games to be overcharged for. I will NEVER pay $80 for a game that is the same as many other games out there. I will pay $80 for a game thats unique,...and BftB is far from unique. Is it a good game? yeah, but thats no reason to charge extra. Is it polished? yes, but again that should be the standard,...not something you charge extra for. Is there anything that really warrants a price tag of $80? Judging from the demo,...no,...not at all.

WitP is a game that is worth extra money, its a unique game, that you arent going to find anywhere else. BftB is just another RTS game among countless other RTS games.

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Post #: 73
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 6:31:26 PM   
diablo1

 

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quote:

BftB is just another RTS game among countless other RTS games.


Oh are you ever going to catch flak for that statement.

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Post #: 74
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 7:10:08 PM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

BftB is just another RTS game among countless other RTS games.

0/10 too obvious.

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Post #: 75
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 7:27:41 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

BftB is just another RTS game among countless other RTS games.


Oh are you ever going to catch flak for that statement.



Point out one thing in the demo that hasnt been done before.................

Dont get me wrong,...it appears to be very solid, very polished,...but there is nothing groundbreaking about it.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 7/21/2010 7:28:57 PM >

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Post #: 76
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 7:30:22 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cmurphy625


quote:

ORIGINAL: t001001001

The developer should've stayed out the price argument...his curt "we're happy with sales and the price will not be falling" statement was an "in yer face" comment and just made me dig my heals in


He's explaining to you that retailers generally do not discount products that are already selling well.




I'm with Judge on this one.. I was on the fence, even though I had not yet paid 80 for a game yet.. but the reviews were so good.. but the 'smug' way that comment was made.. That shut the door for me.. I don't even think of buying now.. maybe two years from now if it's reasonable during the Xmas sale.. but now.. no interest




Well, it never bothered me. I happen to like the guy, (what little I know about him) and I honestly appreciate that he spends time in here in the GD forum now and then to see what's being discussed. I feel he got a rough handling from some of the forum dwellers and I wish I could apologize for the behaviors. I can't of course but I wish I could.

If the game does not present itself as a good value to you, don't buy it. Whining about the pricing, (or the dev's comments about pricing) as if it's some sort of personal attack just looks pathetic to me.




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Post #: 77
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 7:46:33 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

BftB is just another RTS game among countless other RTS games.


Oh are you ever going to catch flak for that statement.



Point out one thing in the demo that hasnt been done before.................

Dont get me wrong,...it appears to be very solid, very polished,...but there is nothing groundbreaking about it.

Wrong genre. It's not an RTS. It lacks base building, health bars, unit building, and similar anti-realistic gimmicks that characterise the RTS genre. If anything, it's an RTW, but I would rather call it a Continuous Time Wargame as it doesn't have to be played in real time, it can also be played in accelerated time which has a big influence on gameplay.

Anyway, could you point me to countless games similar to what Panther Games make?

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 7/21/2010 7:47:03 PM >

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Post #: 78
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 9:36:36 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR


quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

Let us not forget the time Erik has to spend baby-sitting us. There again what better way could he have to spend those "extra" hours?


You mean when he's not sitting in his pile of gold and silver like Donald Ducks grandpa tossing it over his head over and over screaming "I'm Rish!", "I'm Rish!", I'm Rish!"


Its Scrooge McDuck man,.............

Now about the BftB game and its price, and the greed that causes games to be overcharged for. I will NEVER pay $80 for a game that is the same as many other games out there. I will pay $80 for a game thats unique,...and BftB is far from unique. Is it a good game? yeah, but thats no reason to charge extra. Is it polished? yes, but again that should be the standard,...not something you charge extra for. Is there anything that really warrants a price tag of $80? Judging from the demo,...no,...not at all.

WitP is a game that is worth extra money, its a unique game, that you arent going to find anywhere else. BftB is just another RTS game among countless other RTS games.



"WitP is a game that is worth extra money, its a unique game, that you arent going to find anywhere else."

Priceless. WitP is also likely the most anal computer wargame ever made as well. Likely only capable of being compared with ASL Advanced Squad Leader for magnitude level of omg anal levels of detail only the truly obsessed could want.

I own both games by the way, so it's not like I am just saying things I can't know.
I also own BftB and consider it a great deal more playable than WitP will ever manage to be.

I suspect if given a chance, I'd rather I was never hooked on ASL and also never bought WitP. Great designs to be sure, just not overly playable ones. Nauseating sums of detail that with some effort might have been rendered likely more playable if not for how some of wargaming value mind numbing detail over all at the price of everything else too.

WitP is no more worth the 80 bucks I spent than BftB was. Both cost me 80 bucks, one is likely going to remain mostly unplayed for being more in line with just wanting something I know will be brutally accurate, should I ever have virtually nothing else to do and no life so I could spend the required incredible sums of time needed to play it.

If you look over at Gamesquad, home of the largest density I can think of of ASLer, you will also find, that like WitP, they too likely scorn anything non ASL, and can't fathom while anyone would want to play anything else, not that the day is long enough for them to actually think there is time enough for anything else.

I also don't seem to play my ASL as much as I would like.

Is BftB worth 80 bucks?

Well let's just say that a great many ****ty 40 something wargames from numerous other companies likely were not worth 40 bucks or 40 cents. They were not worth 40 bucks and they were not worth 20 bucks and they were not worth 9.99 either. Which might explain why they were in the bargain bin where often all you get is garbage.

So when you DO find a decent game for 40 bucks, rejoice, be happy. Because it likely was worth more too. But IT was the fluke, not the 80 dollar wargame.

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Post #: 79
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 10:21:20 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline 		The real question is 'Is it worth $80 TO ME?" For me, the answer is no,......I dont like RTS games whether they have base building and resources or not.
But to people that like RTS games, I would be willing to bet the game would be worth $80 to them. I have said for a long time that I do not mind paying more for quality (cough cough), but no matter how good the game is there is nothing there to draw ME in. I checked it out to see if there was something new that might make me like it a little more than any other RTS, but there wasnt.

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Post #: 80
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 10:29:31 PM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline 		Scott_War, this isn't an RTS.

The only thing that BftB and the standard RTS(Command and Conquer, StarCraft, etc)have in common is:
Real-Time
World War II

I'm not taking sides in this whole argument, but BftB isn't really an RTS. It's a Real-Time wargame, a simulation. There's a HUGE difference. Again I'm not saying whether it's worth it or not, but there is difference in the type of games they are.

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Post #: 81
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 10:51:13 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline 		Oh, silly me,.... here I thought war games were usually strategy games,...therefore turn based strategy or real time strategy. Which is this again? It certainly isnt a turn based strategy game is it? You can put high heels on a pig, but its still a pig, it will just be a lot more fun to watch it walk.

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Post #: 82
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 11:36:50 PM   
Knavery


Posts: 286
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR
WitP is a game that is worth extra money, its a unique game, that you arent going to find anywhere else. BftB is just another RTS game among countless other RTS games.


I wouldn't pay 20 bucks for WitP, because I'd shoot myself in the head after 20 minutes of playing it. But that's just me. :)

Regarding Matrix Games pricing model and support... First let me say that after a lot of thought, I truly believe they have the best customer support out there. It might be due to their small size (company that is), or the fact that they really care about their customers. Either way, Matrix representatives and game developers alike respond to our issues, concerns, and inquiries. And with the market they're in, that won't likely change as Matrix is not likely going to grow into a Blizzard anytime soon.

There are a couple things I believe Matrix could improve on. First, they need to drop the price on their games after they've been out for a couple of years. A once a year sale price of $29.00-$39.00 on a game that's been out for five years isn't market smart. But a permanent price of say $30.00-$35.00 would open up more doors. And that's still extremely high-priced for a game that old. I know there's a very delicate balance in making money off of older titles, but lowering the price point will expand Matrix Games market to more casual gamers--not just the forum crowd that eats up everything released here.

The second thing that could be improved upon is Matrix Games signing some kind of QA agreement with the developers it deals with. Now, I've seen this more often than not lately. Some of these titles coming out are loaded with bugs. It's been totally up to the forum community to track and report them--some of them so obvious it makes me wonder if they were even tested. What's worse are the excuses of why things are the way they are. It doesn't matter what the reasons are, because it still looks bad. If someone at my place of employment doesn't adequately QA data that I'm ultimately responsible for, guess who gets the blame? That's right... me, and rightly so. It may not have been my direct responsibility to undergo QA, but it was my responsibility to ensure it was done properly.

These are just my observations, but in the end, Matrix Games is still a damn fine company.

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Post #: 83
RE: Business Model - 7/21/2010 11:46:37 PM   
axisandallies


Posts: 329
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


quote:

ORIGINAL: cmurphy625


quote:

ORIGINAL: t001001001

The developer should've stayed out the price argument...his curt "we're happy with sales and the price will not be falling" statement was an "in yer face" comment and just made me dig my heals in


He's explaining to you that retailers generally do not discount products that are already selling well.




I'm with Judge on this one.. I was on the fence, even though I had not yet paid 80 for a game yet.. but the reviews were so good.. but the 'smug' way that comment was made.. That shut the door for me.. I don't even think of buying now.. maybe two years from now if it's reasonable during the Xmas sale.. but now.. no interest




Well, it never bothered me. I happen to like the guy, (what little I know about him) and I honestly appreciate that he spends time in here in the GD forum now and then to see what's being discussed. I feel he got a rough handling from some of the forum dwellers and I wish I could apologize for the behaviors. I can't of course but I wish I could.

If the game does not present itself as a good value to you, don't buy it. Whining about the pricing, (or the dev's comments about pricing) as if it's some sort of personal attack just looks pathetic to me.




So your saying that no one else can have an opinion other than your own, and if they differ from yours or your friends they are whining? You should not apolagize for anyone except yourself. To be honest he i.e Erik should have stayed out of the pricing debate, and yes he did come off rude. When you have to defend your actions over and over again and explain why you did something, then yes there is a problem......

< Message edited by axisandallies -- 7/21/2010 11:49:01 PM >

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RE: Business Model - 7/22/2010 12:11:03 AM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Oh, silly me,.... here I thought war games were usually strategy games,...therefore turn based strategy or real time strategy. Which is this again? It certainly isnt a turn based strategy game is it? You can put high heels on a pig, but its still a pig, it will just be a lot more fun to watch it walk.

Because RTS games are very specific genre. They are games that combine base building, resource management, unit production and combat on the same map. They aren't wargames. Not any more any more than Chess or Rock Paper Scissors are.

Real time wargames, continuous time wargames and phase based wargames have existed long before the cancer of RTS has appeared.

Anyway, so where are all these continuous time wargames with command and control that you were talking about?

EDIT:
Never mind, 6/10, would rage again. Feigning innocence was a good move.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 7/22/2010 12:18:13 AM >

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People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
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Post #: 85
RE: Business Model - 7/22/2010 12:34:23 AM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Oh, silly me,.... here I thought war games were usually strategy games,...therefore turn based strategy or real time strategy. Which is this again? It certainly isnt a turn based strategy game is it? You can put high heels on a pig, but its still a pig, it will just be a lot more fun to watch it walk.


You are basically saying Battles From the Bulge is in the same class as Company of Heroes, Command and Conquer, and Star Craft. Can someone please explain to me how in any way possible these are same type of games?

Anyway, I'm not going to argue. Yes they both real time with strategic elements, but they are apples and oranges beyond that.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 7/22/2010 12:35:35 AM >

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Post #: 86
RE: Business Model - 7/22/2010 3:15:40 AM   
diablo1

 

Posts: 994
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		apples and oranges at the end of the day are both still fruit so same food catagory.

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Post #: 87
RE: Business Model - 7/22/2010 7:37:26 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		Counter argument: BFTB is "real time strategy" game because it runs in real-time (that can be paused accellerated) and you need to strategize to win.

"[RTS] They are games that combine base building, resource management, unit production and combat on the same map. They aren't wargames."
EU, HOI, are strategy games or war games? What about Total War?
Storm over the Pacific, WITP has all of the elements above (except for real time).
World in Conflict has no base building... is it RTS?

Do we consider something as a wargame because we think it's more historically accurate and realistic than the common strategy games?
So do you call Company of Heroes a wargame?  Achtung Panzer?  Men of War? Theater of War?

What is the distinct characteristic for one to be a strategy game and a wargame?

Or should we go to the level of control? Strategic has resource economic management, Operational controls bigger units with less control on combat, Tactical goes down to squad / individual level units where you direct fire and combat. Based on this, BFTB is RTO (Real Time Operational). EU is RTS (real time strategy). Close Combat and Combat Mission Shock Force is RTT (Real Time Tactical). We haven't even figured out if they are wargames or not.

If you look at the Wargamer website... a lot of news articles and discussion in the forums are not about grognard wargames!

I think we have a bias for calling strategy games that has no mass market appeal and only grognards would love as Wargames. And we don't want to associate these games with what the mass market plays because we grognards are of a higher class.


< Message edited by jomni -- 7/22/2010 7:56:16 AM >

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Post #: 88
RE: Business Model - 7/22/2010 8:12:24 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Anyway, could you point me to countless games similar to what Panther Games make?


Not countless but I can name a few.

Shrapnel ProSim Games (closest competitor)
HPS Point of Attack 2 (Turn-based)
Flashpoint Germany (Turn-based)

Different era but same command and control concept:
Take Command

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Post #: 89
RE: Business Model - 7/22/2010 8:24:28 AM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
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From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni
Shrapnel ProSim Games (closest competitor)


Got them - like them, but when it comes to the AI they're not even in the same league.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni
HPS Point of Attack 2 (Turn-based)


An unplayable bugfest even after all these years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni
Flashpoint Germany (Turn-based)


Huh ????

quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni
Different era but same command and control concept:
Take Command


Totally scripted AI, but cleverly done so it's not immediatly noticeable (but does after a while). Gives a good game though and yes, it's the same command & control concept

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx




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Post #: 90
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