RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available!

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RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/26/2010 8:47:45 PM

Florestan

Posts: 227
Joined: 6/5/2010
From: Montpellier, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baleur
I could sit and list game after game that updates more frequently but that wouldnt make much difference.

Well, and among them how many have only one developer ?

Well, I half agree with you : from the customer point of view, I think the game shouldn't even be out yet... There are still numerous little bugs here and there, the lack of QA shows a lot. In fact, I wonder if, aside from Elliott own testing we are the only QA... This is also why I often warn about very small bugs or problems that are easy to ignore, to then see some of them corrected in the next patch.
But if we're looking at a very high potential of a game designer, here, we also are looking at a "newbie in his garage" in game development matters. Well, I suppose he had quite some experience in programming before, or he wouldn't have gotten this far.
This is also what makes the game more like he (a gamer) wanted it to be than the stupid sales and marketing people wanted it to be. But is also a very ambitious project for a lone man, especially one with this lack of experience. I read an interview about this game, and it seems that when he came to Matrix to find a editor, he also found a lot of help regarding his inexperience.
I'm sure that, if he continues to develop games, his next will not be released at a beta stage, like this one was (sorry, but it's sooo true !). I'm quite sure he is mostly not satisfied with what we are not and very satisfied with what we are.
The thing is, to make things right with a project that big, you can't do it alone and hire a composer here and a graphic designer there, and expect all will be all right. Considering these limitations, he did (and continues to do) a very, very good job of it, in my opinion.
I will add that the game was released on 25th of march, the review I read was published in early may, I bought it one month later. So, I hope still new customers continue to come and buy and support CodeForce, thanks to new reviews that appear a little late (I suppose this is part of Erik's work), understand why it is as it is, hence the comparatively low price, and above all enjoy the game! Note that we have a visitor on the forum here and there, asking before buying, or sometime even a new posting member. The game lives on !
If the beta is still on, I think it is in particular because of the numerous reported crashes that now seem mostly gone. As a programmer myself, I know it is hard to decide oneself when to release something; there is always a little something that is missing, that comes out late to prevent you from releasing. The next release will be some time later, so it would be nice if the customer had it in this one... But there are still quite some little bugs, and unless the modding work is nearly over, it is worth correcting them before to release something official.
But I suppose it is not our role to ask for or even discuss this kind of decisions.
As "hardcore" gamers (I suppose we all are, that write in this thread), we are not very representative of the average customer, in particular in the way he will or will not be frustrated by a problem or another, when trying a patch that is official. This is more the work of the marketing...
I may hate the way they tend to want to lower costs and remove things that will not make the program sell better but only feel better, their work is a real, needed one that requires knowledge and professionalism. Let them work!

(in reply to Baleur)

Post #: 61

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/26/2010 9:55:20 PM

jscott991

Posts: 530
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline

I wonder if my point has been misconstrued a bit.

I like that they release betas to help with testing and QA.

I just think they've released far too many in proportion to official releases and, in doing so, have kept the results of their good work hidden from a majority of the game's players, many of which probably abandoned it thinking that it had too many little problems. I bet most rely on the updater to know when there is a patch, not the forum, but all of these fixes have been targeted only at forum users. That's a poor strategy in my mind.

(in reply to Florestan)

Post #: 62

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/26/2010 10:42:27 PM

the1sean

Posts: 854
Joined: 5/11/2010
From: Texas, USA
Status: offline

Hmm, I am in pretty avid disagreement. As a disclaimer, I started playing soon in April. In terms of both time played and enjoyment factor, Distant Worlds is the best 4x of the past 6+ years. FYI, I own Civ 4, GalCiv 1 and 2, Sword of the Stars, Armada 2526, Space Empires 4 and 5, Imperium Galctica 2, Hearts of Iron 2 and 3, Europa Universalis, Victoria, Crusader Kings, Sins of a Solar Empire, Master of Orion 1-3, the entire Total War series (an amazing series), and those are just the 4x games I play (I also love RTS's, FPS's and RPG's) So I game a lot, it isnt a crime!

My point is that I have a good feel for how devs update their games, and how meaningful said updates are. To be brutally honest it seems like DW was released in a late Beta state. I can forgive a lone developer though. I lurked in these forums until after some of the more recent patches, because the game then appeared very playable. I have enjoyed it immensely. The lists of fixes since release so far is staggering. This next patch will be a beast. I have played plenty of other 4x's that have never ever even gotten to the playable state that DW is currently in (i'm glaring at you especially, Paradox Interactive, and you too, MoO3/Quicksilver). Most of those games were developed by decently sized companies as well.

The DW patches have been steady, and while I prefer intensive Quality Assurance efforts prior to release like those of Blizzard and Valve, the devs here have listened to player feedback and responded with comprehensive gameplay fixes and improvements more than any one dev I have seen to date. Most companies stop short at bug fixes, and dont care about providing gameplay and interface improvements. They leave those for the expansions, yet in this upcoming patch we see huge amounts of gameplay and interface improvements.

I have been patiently waiting for the fully finished patch to be released, and I look forward to enjoying the fruits of "community QA" and dev efforts. If you want to see what normally happens with the majority of 4x's, go take a hard look at the patch releases of some of the companies that I mentioned before. I am not trying to sling mud, just remind all of us what usually actually happens with 4x game developement by anything but the largest and most successful companies (and if you look at their history, thats a big part of why they have hordes of die-hard fans today). The devs here are doing the right thing, lets not lose sight of the extraordinary efforts being made by a very small, very new company.

Some may not agree, but my hat goes off to you guys. I look forward to playing your games for years to come!

(in reply to Florestan)

Post #: 63

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/26/2010 11:00:46 PM

the1sean

Posts: 854
Joined: 5/11/2010
From: Texas, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I wonder if my point has been misconstrued a bit.

I like that they release betas to help with testing and QA.

I just think they've released far too many in proportion to official releases and, in doing so, have kept the results of their good work hidden from a majority of the game's players, many of which probably abandoned it thinking that it had too many little problems. I bet most rely on the updater to know when there is a patch, not the forum, but all of these fixes have been targeted only at forum users. That's a poor strategy in my mind.

I agree in part, but I think that player abandonment isnt the big issue, its more of a publicity and market accessibility issue. If this game was for sale on either Steam and/or Impulse it would be selling like hotcakes.

In my humble opinion, Matrix needs to strike up a deal with a digital download platform like Stardock's Impulse. Tons of Indie titles have utterly thrived there (like Armada 2526, Gratuitous Space Battles, AI war, etc). It gives their games great market coverage and PR, plus extreme ease of purchase. I am a good example, I downloaded Armada off of Impulse after seeing an ad for it on there.(Impulse by far my preferred carrier, they carry tons of wargame/4x titles, and already have the attention of a large portion of Distant World's target audience). In contrast it took me forever to even hear about Distant Worlds, and even then I was loathe to purchase a digital download anywhere but on Impulse, especially from such a small company. There is a huge target audience waiting untapped for the Matrix Games game catalogue.

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 64

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/27/2010 2:43:46 AM

Baleur

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Joined: 1/18/2010
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I do agree with that, about paying attention to the players in the patches, i didnt think of that :)
I'm impressed with how many changes i noticed in the beta patch that i later read about in the "wishlist" thread, and i was like "lul wtf its already added?" :)

(in reply to WoodMan)

Post #: 65

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/27/2010 5:28:58 PM

the1sean

Posts: 854
Joined: 5/11/2010
From: Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baleur

I do agree with that, about paying attention to the players in the patches, i didnt think of that :)
I'm impressed with how many changes i noticed in the beta patch that i later read about in the "wishlist" thread, and i was like "lul wtf its already added?" :)

Exactly, its really impressive, they have directly implemented player suggestions to fix not only bugs but drastically improve gameplay. The immediate correlation and subsequent patch response is something I have never seen before on this scale.

Once this patchcomes this patch finally hits the streets the we will have to amend the wishlist by deleting issues that have been resolved. It will be very gratifying for devs and players alike, I am sure

(in reply to Baleur)

Post #: 66

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/27/2010 6:00:13 PM

Igard

Posts: 2282
Joined: 3/29/2010
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

Once this patchcomes this patch finally hits the streets the we will have to amend the wishlist by deleting issues that have been resolved. It will be very gratifying for devs and players alike, I am sure

Could we start a new wishlist. Would that be easier/quicker? Or would it confuse the hell out of Elliot?

The only thing we would need to do is transfer the relevant/good wishes from the old wishlist.

(in reply to the1sean)

Post #: 67

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/27/2010 6:09:12 PM

Falokis

Posts: 144
Joined: 5/23/2010
Status: offline

Either you fixed all my crashing issues or I'm just getting very lucky. Either way, nice work on the most recent patch.

(in reply to Florestan)

Post #: 68

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/28/2010 1:59:30 AM

Radtoo

Posts: 3
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline

Not a bad patch.

Auto-fleet warfare now works a tiny bit better by the fleets picking close nearby targets, except that you need massive amounts of escort ships doing defense for your actual attack fleet (capitals, cruisers, destroyers, troop transports etc.) to do any offensive maneuvering rather than mounting a VERY uninspired, inefficient defense which for the most part means sitting somewhere doing nothing while the enemy kills economic structures. They only really do something useful (=attack the enemy) when you have got a ton of escorts around.

War weariness is also still way too strong on huge maps with victory conditions reliant on large dominance (say, 50%+ of population or planets). You may be insanely powerful prior to the war and technologically advanced, once you're at the in the inevitable war with everyone left (since they fear you for your size), it seems you have to collapse under the weight of war weariness. Even low corruption, max'd tech, very rich planets, many independent nations for bonus', and either "secret" form of gov't couldn't keep me out of the red with a fleet just barely large enough to do attack and defense at the same time.

Now the positive stuff: Performance got better ingame on my multicore machine, as expected, and no crashes happened during a few incomplete games on huge maps.

(in reply to Falokis)

Post #: 69

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/28/2010 2:21:20 PM

WoodMan

Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
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quote:

You may be insanely powerful prior to the war and technologically advanced, once you're at the in the inevitable war with everyone left (since they fear you for your size), it seems you have to collapse under the weight of war weariness. Even low corruption, max'd tech, very rich planets, many independent nations for bonus', and either "secret" form of gov't couldn't keep me out of the red with a fleet just barely large enough to do attack and defense at the same time.

But this is cool, it's like the same problem that caused Roman/British Empires to collapse, greatly simplified of course.

(in reply to Radtoo)

Post #: 70

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/28/2010 4:50:28 PM

Javaslinger

Posts: 34
Joined: 6/4/2010
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does the dev ever respond/comment in this forum?

(in reply to WoodMan)

Post #: 71

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/28/2010 5:38:40 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Javaslinger

does the dev ever respond/comment in this forum?

yes, often.
Elliot: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showProfile.asp?memid=26449
Erick: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showProfile.asp?memid=9

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Javaslinger)

Post #: 72

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/28/2010 5:49:09 PM

jscott991

Posts: 530
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

quote:

You may be insanely powerful prior to the war and technologically advanced, once you're at the in the inevitable war with everyone left (since they fear you for your size), it seems you have to collapse under the weight of war weariness. Even low corruption, max'd tech, very rich planets, many independent nations for bonus', and either "secret" form of gov't couldn't keep me out of the red with a fleet just barely large enough to do attack and defense at the same time.

But this is cool, it's like the same problem that caused Roman/British Empires to collapse, greatly simplified of course.

Well, no, not really.

The British Empire collapsed because of the rise of the principle of self determination, something pushed by the United States (and, of course, various nationalist groups). Once Britain signed a document granting self determination to the people of Austria-Hungary (and the Central Powers in general), it essentially signed its own death warrant. How can you deny self determination to Commonwealth countries while granting it to Czechs? But this is a big debate for another thread.

The Roman Empire collapsed because of bureaucratic atrophy, imperial overstretch, and changing demographics (the shift of the weight of the empire's population from west to east, and growing "barbarian" numbers). Some might argue that Rome collapsed because of fighting with the barbarians, but this kind of on-again, off-again warfare is not simulated by DW's war exhaustion.

It would be a strange state that collapsed because it's people were tired of fighting a successful defensive war. If every small state in DW declares war on a huge empire and that huge empire just cleans their clock (presumably without the war even touching the core worlds), why on earth would the people of the larger empire become "exhausted"? Especially since in DW, you don't really raise or lower tax rates during times of war.

War exhaustion is a silly concept in all games. It makes something tangible into something abstract. People become exhausted during wars because of higher production, higher consumption of resources, or loss of territory/casualties. None of that happens in DW (or in EU, the king of forced war exhaustion). My taxes during a DW war stay constant. My force construction remains constant. And I seldom lose even a single ship or planet. If I'm not required to overstretch my economy to win a war, then I shouldn't experience war weariness. What is causing my people to become weary?

Anyway, rant over. DW's devs love using blanket values to cover up game imbalances (corruption), so I'm not sure we'll see exhaustion/weariness go away.

(in reply to WoodMan)

Post #: 73

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/29/2010 12:48:54 AM

WoodMan

Posts: 1345
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From: Ol' Blighty
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There is no need to lecture me, I did study history at university, and have a great interest/hobby in studying the Roman Empire until this day, when I said greatly simplified I really meant greatly simplified�

I agree that the specific term war weariness is perhaps not the best way of limiting the expansion of Empires in DW, but I think it is good that some kind of mechanic that prevents this is in place.

quote:

War exhaustion is a silly concept in all games.

I agree, but if you can come up with some more complex and realistic way of simulating the overstretching of large Empires, please tell the devs because I would probably support it

Edit: Oops sorry jscott, this post and the above are sort of wrong, when I read War Weariness, for some reason I forgot that in-game this is simply a morale issue, yes real-life weariness is generally "weariness" within the economy/infrastructure of said Empire *not* the morale of the population. I too would prefer something that simulates this than just putting a morale hit on your Empire population.

< Message edited by WoodMan -- 7/29/2010 1:21:32 AM >

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 74

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/29/2010 2:25:45 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
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rome collapsed because of a series of really bad leaders... born of incest, spoiled rotten, and brain damaged by lead pipes...
its amazing really that it took that long for it to collapse.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to WoodMan)

Post #: 75

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/29/2010 2:29:38 PM

jalapen0

Posts: 122
Joined: 4/10/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

rome collapsed because of a series of really bad leaders... born of incest, spoiled rotten, and brain damaged by lead pipes...
its amazing really that it took that long for it to collapse.

Sounds just like our leaders now.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 76

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/29/2010 3:50:40 PM

jscott991

Posts: 530
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

rome collapsed because of a series of really bad leaders... born of incest, spoiled rotten, and brain damaged by lead pipes...
its amazing really that it took that long for it to collapse.

After the end of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, this largely isn't true.

Some will argue that Rome collapsed because it simply couldn't be administered (too big of a state for its time). Others will point towards the demographic and population issues I mentioned above. And the classic high school history answer is that it collapsed because of barbarians.

But it would have collapsed even if they had cloned Caesar or Trajan 200 times to serve as Emperor.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 77

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/29/2010 7:50:10 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

Some will argue that Rome collapsed because it simply couldn't be administered

oh right, that is another big issue... communication AND transportation technology was too limited for an empire that size.

quote:

Others will point towards the demographic and population issues I mentioned above

that contributed to it, I over simplified, but bad leaders had a lot to do with it.

quote:

And the classic high school history answer is that it collapsed because of barbarians.

Which is like saying that scavengers cause death because they eat the corpse. the barbarians just sorta finished it off when it was already done for.

quote:

But it would have collapsed even if they had cloned Caesar or Trajan 200 times to serve as Emperor.

Couldn't outstanding leadership address many of the issues?

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 78

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/29/2010 8:03:12 PM

Florestan

Posts: 227
Joined: 6/5/2010
From: Montpellier, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jalapen0

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

rome collapsed because of a series of really bad leaders... born of incest, spoiled rotten, and brain damaged by lead pipes...
its amazing really that it took that long for it to collapse.

Sounds just like our leaders now.

LOL !

(in reply to jalapen0)

Post #: 79

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/29/2010 8:05:50 PM

WoodMan

Posts: 1345
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From: Ol' Blighty
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lol, well since its got massively off topic here, I think its about time for the official patch

(in reply to Florestan)

Post #: 80

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/29/2010 8:19:23 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

Hi guys,

After some discussion with Elliot and reviewing the reports so far, we've decided to make 1.0.6.0 official. There are still some issues, but it represents a huge improvement over the current official release and many customers do not upgrade until a new official release is available. We expect to release 1.0.6.0 officially later today and continue our work with the reported 1.0.6.0 issues in the next update.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to WoodMan)

Post #: 81

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/29/2010 8:43:42 PM

WoodMan

Posts: 1345
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From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline

Thx Erik, and you are right, it is a huge improvement over the current official release. Good job on the Beta patches, I'll get the official late then

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 82

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/29/2010 9:53:00 PM

jalapen0

Posts: 122
Joined: 4/10/2010
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I"m assuming 1.06 beta games are compatible with 1.06 final?

(in reply to WoodMan)

Post #: 83

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/29/2010 11:18:24 PM

adecoy95

Posts: 420
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will any more modding be supported in this version?

(in reply to jalapen0)

Post #: 84

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/30/2010 1:58:05 AM

jalapen0

Posts: 122
Joined: 4/10/2010
Status: offline

No, they said that's the next patch. That's when this game will really rule. I hope the modders are ready to go. I need more weapon variety. :)

(in reply to adecoy95)

Post #: 85

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/30/2010 3:09:23 AM

adecoy95

Posts: 420
Joined: 3/26/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jalapen0

No, they said that's the next patch. That's when this game will really rule. I hope the modders are ready to go. I need more weapon variety. :)

personally one of the first things i will try to do is make a race that can colonize gas giants, and possibly only gas giants, it would give massive populations but you would have to fight the other races for resources because you have to build mining stations on their worlds xD

(in reply to jalapen0)

Post #: 86

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 7/30/2010 7:47:30 AM

Baleur

Posts: 372
Joined: 1/18/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: adecoy95

quote:

ORIGINAL: jalapen0

No, they said that's the next patch. That's when this game will really rule. I hope the modders are ready to go. I need more weapon variety. :)

personally one of the first things i will try to do is make a race that can colonize gas giants, and possibly only gas giants, it would give massive populations but you would have to fight the other races for resources because you have to build mining stations on their worlds xD

LOL and dont forget watching the other civs colonize the moons around your homeworld XD Would be awesomely annoying!

(in reply to adecoy95)

Post #: 87

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 8/1/2010 3:23:27 AM

Wade1000

Posts: 771
Joined: 10/27/2009
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Nice!
I'm just checking in again after a time away from the forum. I look forward to these improvements. Looks like much of what many of us wanted.

Thankyou.

_____________________________

Wish list:population centers beyond planetary(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture):Ships,Ring Orbitals,Sphere Orbitals,Ringworlds,Sphereworlds;ability to create & destroy planets,population centers,stars;AI competently using all advances & features.

(in reply to Baleur)

Post #: 88

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 8/1/2010 4:53:42 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baleur

quote:

ORIGINAL: adecoy95

quote:

ORIGINAL: jalapen0

No, they said that's the next patch. That's when this game will really rule. I hope the modders are ready to go. I need more weapon variety. :)

personally one of the first things i will try to do is make a race that can colonize gas giants, and possibly only gas giants, it would give massive populations but you would have to fight the other races for resources because you have to build mining stations on their worlds xD

LOL and dont forget watching the other civs colonize the moons around your homeworld XD Would be awesomely annoying!

eh, you just need to conquer another race, or someone needs to conquer some of your planets...

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Baleur)

Post #: 89

RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available! - 8/3/2010 1:52:02 PM

Gertjan

Posts: 698
Joined: 12/9/2009
Status: offline

Thanks again! Great work. I will update soon and also haven't played for a while. Looks like SC2 will have to wait for me.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 90

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RE: New v1.0.6.0 Public Beta Now Available!