Artillery - How Much is Too Much?

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Artillery - How Much is Too Much? - 8/13/2002 11:18:02 AM

Capt. Pixel

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So I guess my question to the gentle readers of this forum is:

What levels of artillery access do you prefer in your PBEM games?

Do you tend to be more 'realistic' and limit artillery to those organic to a formation (ie. a Company's assets), or do you open up the gates and allow for five Divisions worth of artillery assets?

It's certainly possible to reduce a comparable combined arms force with nothing more than 90% of your points spent on artillery and 10% on scouts/FOs. The result is usually predictable: the enemy grinds to a halt and slowly crawls along underneath a steady rain of steel. Attrition eventually takes it's toll and the game ends with a whimper. And if both sides indulge, both sides get ground to a halt.

Reducing your opponent's mobility is certainly a desireable result. But when both sides use this tactic, it can make for a rather slow, un-enjoyable game (IMHO).

I've been on both the delivering and receiving end of this kind of overkill approach. It's not much fun either way. Once I ended an opponent's Assault prematurely, just because I managed to pin or supress almost his entire force in one massive barrage. We were both extremely dissatisfied with that result. :(

I personally prefer to negotiate 10% to 15% as a guideline for purchases. I've found that level sufficient to impose my will on the enemy and not so overwhelming as to pin all of my forces at once. ;)

So, how about you? What do you use as a guideline for artillery purchases? :cool:

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10% and less - 8/13/2002 4:27:16 PM

Rokondo

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I prefer Air strikes :D
But I learn that artillery is very important in the game.
I usually take the 155mm or 4.2 mortars (US)
Something that I learn lately is to defend the artillery.
Few ways to defend:

* Put few units near to help if enemy air troops land near.

* Put your artillery not in one group (I see that good players see the smoke and start to shell where is possible the artillery place)
Put the artillery few hex from the ammo depot and separate.

* Try to move your artillery after few truns (you just lose one shell ride ) ;)

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- 8/13/2002 5:16:27 PM

Belisarius

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Rokondo; if you put your artillery a few hexes away from the ammo depot, what's the point in having a depot at all? :rolleyes:

I find airborne assaults utterly useless. I still have to see one that worked. I dropped a company on Scharfsch�tze, it was down to a platoon in one single turn. Red dropped a company on me, that all but disappeared in three turns.

I have an uncanny ability to lose contact with my artillery no matter what, so I always try to bring at least 3 battalions into play (10-12 pieces) if points allow me.

15% is my preferred limit - including FO's and ammo dumps.

onboard artillery will be detected, so I usually set up several positions and alternate fire between them.

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Tactic & strategy of the Game. - 8/13/2002 5:58:05 PM

Rokondo

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Belisarius
[B]Rokondo; if you put your artillery a few hexes away from the ammo depot, what's the point in having a depot at all?
[/B][/QUOTE]

[B]Tactic [/B]
Well I play allot !
I saw that most of the players search in the start of the game for smoke that the artillery makes. :eek:

If in the start you have full ammo in your artillery so its no problem to fire few rounds of shells (make the smoke to your enemy where he think you are) and then move the artillery near you ammo dump for reload. :D

[B]Strategy[/B]
If you lose your artillery in the game its will be more difficult to win.
I lose my artillery in few games and it�s been very difficult to hit the enemy troops. :(

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For the Sake of Reality... - 8/13/2002 8:44:18 PM

Orzel Bialy

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to answer the original theme of this thread...I think limiting arty to 5% of the total build points is about right...10% if you are playing an assualt scenario.

When you have a game and the build points are 10k + and you are buying 15% or more in arty...that's a lot of arty batteries! Far more than would be available in most real-life, WW2 battlefield situtations...at least until 45' when the Allies (especially the Russians) could muster very large numbers of arty units against the German Army simply because the area of what the Germans were left holding had shrunk in size.

And you are right about the effects of arty over-kill (what a play on words eh? :D ) in a game. What is the fun in playing a game when both sideds are just saturated by HE's turn after turn after turn? Eventually the troops crack and run and the battle degenerates into a shell of a battle.

Anyway, that's my spin on the arty issue. ;)

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- 8/13/2002 9:25:25 PM

Belisarius

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I'm not sure I agree.

Mortars, FH's, OB arty, ammo dumps and FO's can only total 5%? That's not even realistic. We're playing battalion level here, and one could at least imagine that the scenarios we play are some that recieved more attention from higher command.

At least the regimental artillery should be available; the smaller howitzers and mortars. I can agree that limiting OB arty to 5% can be a good idea to avoid overkill. In a 7000p battle that'd be 350 points, which will barely give you 4 150 mm tubes.

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- 8/13/2002 11:07:00 PM

Capt. Pixel

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Belisarius
[B]I'm not sure I agree.

Mortars, FH's, OB arty, ammo dumps and FO's can only total 5%? That's not even realistic. We're playing battalion level here, and one could at least imagine that the scenarios we play are some that recieved more attention from higher command.

At least the regimental artillery should be available; the smaller howitzers and mortars. I can agree that limiting OB arty to 5% can be a good idea to avoid overkill. In a 7000p battle that'd be 350 points, which will barely give you 4 150 mm tubes. [/B][/QUOTE]

I tend to agree. We all like to think that our little sector of the front is the only battle going on (that's truly important, anyway). So why shouldn't we get a large chunk of the regimental or divisional artillery assets?

BTW, I think the general consensus is that FOs and Ammo units are NOT included in the purchase limits. Only artillery and maybe Air strikes should be included.

Another method might be to limit only certain calibers. For instance, 5% maximum on any caliber over 100mm. Anything under 100mm is unlimited. That way, Belisarius could have his 4 x 150s and as many 50/60/75/81mm as he wants to buy.

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Re: Artillery - How Much is Too Much? - 8/13/2002 11:17:35 PM

Bernie

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Pixel
[B]So I guess my question to the gentle readers of this forum is:

What levels of artillery access do you prefer in your PBEM games?

So, how about you? What do you use as a guideline for artillery purchases? :cool: [/B][/QUOTE]

Generally (pun intended), I play PBEM games where the points are between 3k-5k and limit arty to 10% maximum. This only includes arty in addition to any that may be part of a unit (ie: it would not include the 50mm mortars that are part of so many Japanese units). This can be adjusted a little depending on the type of engagement. I would expect and allow an opponent making an assault to go as high as 20-25% arty on the assumption that a planned assault usually takes advantage of any/all arty in the area.

Some tricks I like to use are buying the same units for offboard and onboard arty, keeps the enemy guessing (and wasting their own arty trying to hit offboard units). I'll adjust the proportions depending on ammo settings since OB arty can't be resupplied. I also watch for and pound smoke in enemy rear areas and triangulate enemy arty using cell grid graph paper and the reported firing range. I never fire all my arty at once, instead alternating shooting and scooting. I'll often have a battery or two of OB that is never fired if the enemy has OB, leaving those exclusivly for counter-battery firing. I'll also often use unit level mortars to fire smoke around my rear areas to mask the smoke signatures of my own arty. In limited ammo games I use mobile ammo vehicles to resupply, one truck for every two batteries. Though they resupply slower than ammo dumps, they're not sitting ducks either, and with alternating my fire between batteries the trucks can usually keep up. I have a few other tricks I use but no sense in giving away all my secrets, eh? ;)

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Re: Re: Artillery - How Much is Too Much? - 8/13/2002 11:30:38 PM

Capt. Pixel

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bernie
[B]
Some tricks I like to use are buying the same units for offboard and onboard arty, keeps the enemy guessing (and wasting their own arty trying to hit offboard units).
...
I'll often have a battery or two of OB that is never fired if the enemy has OB, leaving those exclusivly for counter-battery firing. [/B][/QUOTE]

That's a neat trick to confound the 'bean-counters' (like me :) )

On the subject of Counter-battery; is it necessary to hold Off-Board in reserve (ie. not fired) to insure counter-battery? Or will counter-battery be fired regardless of whether or not you plot the Off-Board battery?

I don't bother to reserve Off-board specifically for Counter-battery, but Counter-Battery still seems to occur even if that battery was plotted to another mission. :confused:

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- 8/13/2002 11:48:40 PM

Belisarius

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Pixel
[B]Another method might be to limit only certain calibers. For instance, 5% maximum on any caliber over 100mm. Anything under 100mm is unlimited. That way, Belisarius could have his 4 x 150s and as many 50/60/75/81mm as he wants to buy. [/B][/QUOTE]

My point exactly. :)

Limits on <100mm weaponry is always useful as well, but to connect to what Orzel said, a tight limit on the BIG guns would reduce the tendency in PBEM games to pound each other senseless with heavy artillery. :p

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Re: Re: Re: Artillery - How Much is Too Much? - 8/13/2002 11:57:41 PM

Bernie

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Pixel
[B]

That's a neat trick to confound the 'bean-counters' (like me :) )

On the subject of Counter-battery; is it necessary to hold Off-Board in reserve (ie. not fired) to insure counter-battery? Or will counter-battery be fired regardless of whether or not you plot the Off-Board battery?

I don't bother to reserve Off-board specifically for Counter-battery, but Counter-Battery still seems to occur even if that battery was plotted to another mission. :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]

I remember reading here someplace that CB only fired if you had an OB unit unassigned that turn, but I've since seen CB firing from units that had just finished laying down a barrage. I suspect, but don't have hard data for, that a unit that fires during a turn can still fire CB, but not as many rounds. Better to have the crews sit ready and fire a full CB barrage. The other advantage to having dedicated CB is that since it never fires on the map it is not subject to enemy CB fire. :):) There, you pried one of the secrets out of me I promised not to divulge...now I'll have to kill you. :)

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- 8/14/2002 12:19:22 AM

Belisarius

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So the only trick left is to resist the urge to place as many fat yellow circles on the map as possible? :D :D

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I guess I should have been more specific... - 8/14/2002 4:03:48 AM

Orzel Bialy

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my % limits were in regard to Off Board Arty...because of the tremendous effects three or four batteries of 105mm or larger calibre guns have on the game in general. Oh yeah, I wouldn't consider FO's and other units as being part of the percentage limit either....just the arty units themselves.

If a player wants to spend additional points to have on-board arty/SPA's/FH/Mortars then that's his choice...since he does so at the price of other core units.

I guess I'm a big fan of certain limits because, in my view, there is little fun to a game when the map becomes a moonscape of shellholes...and there is a near constant rain of HE for 14-15 turns. :(

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Post #: 13

Counterbattery - 8/15/2002 3:31:29 AM

Capt. Pixel

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On the subject of dedicated OB CB units, seems like a lot of points to park offboard just to wait. IMHO a worse waste of points than Level Bombers. :)

I'd guess that you'd wait and see what the opponent's arty is up to and then bring in onboard barrages if nothing OB presents itself?

I'm also led to believe that the arty unit's range is important. If your enemy's arty outranges yours, you're not going to get the chance to Counterbattery anyway (a chronic problem for the Germans).

It's difficult to 'calculate' the effect of CB. You might manage to suppress a battery for a time, but I can't recall ever seeing an OBA unit completely destroyed. (If it happens, it must be really rare). In a competent army the affected battery shuts down, rallies a turn or two later and starts up firing again. That's a few turns that he's not barraging your field, but it's also a few turns that you're not returning the favor. :)

Of course, there's always the issue that it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it! :eek:

But if I have it, I'm gonna use it. Whether I need it or not! :cool:

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- 8/15/2002 5:11:56 AM

rbrunsman

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Capt. Pixel, you're right about needing to keep an eye on arty ranges. I bought an OB btty of 150s and they could only reach the middle of the map! So, since I held the middle, they just sat there for the whole game doing nothing! What a waste of resources.:o :mad:

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quit complaining - 8/15/2002 2:44:02 PM

Curieus

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Unfortunately you more than made up for it with those evil 210mm batteries :mad:

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Re: quit complaining - 8/16/2002 1:37:16 AM

rbrunsman

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Curieus
[B]Unfortunately you more than made up for it with those evil 210mm batteries :mad: [/B][/QUOTE]

Well... Yes, I guess you are right. We'll definitely put a limit on arty next time around.

I like the idea of a lower limit that is just placed on 100mm+ OB arty. Maybe no point limit but just that you can only have 2 sections or 1 battery of the big stuff (modified up or down my map size). I wouldn't have a problem if my opponent wanted to buy 10 on-board 81mm mortar batteries. I think a balanced force is the best but if someone wants to go nuts, who am I to stop them. It's just a game after all.

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- 8/17/2002 4:36:30 AM

OKW-73

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Usually i buy quite a lot arty in my pbem games...arty strikes will take sometimes 30 mins real time in replay cause i like it fast arty off (want to see what i hit if anything). In 5k points game i usually buy arty with 1k or more points, and i prefer Nebelwerfers and 122+ howitzers., but of course this all depend who am i playing against and map/mission also...

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- 8/17/2002 5:19:53 AM

rbrunsman

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OKW-73, you should challenge Curieus to a game. He loves to receive arty barrages. ;)

Seriously, don't you find that it bogs the game down too much? After playing one PBEM with unlimited arty, I just didn't find it very satisfying even though I was the one with the 210mm batteries. I would much rather have more targets for my arty than I do arty to use. That way you have to make priority decisions and how you choose can make the difference between winning and losing. This is a main reason I like turn-based games. It lets me agonize over my decisions instead of just throwing everything I have at a situation.

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- 8/18/2002 2:06:01 AM

OKW-73

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]OKW-73, you should challenge Curieus to a game. He loves to receive arty barrages. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

Heheh...yes i did see that from his answer ;)
[QUOTE][B]
Seriously, don't you find that it bogs the game down too much? After playing one PBEM with unlimited arty, I just didn't find it very satisfying even though I was the one with the 210mm batteries. I would much rather have more targets for my arty than I do arty to use. That way you have to make priority decisions and how you choose can make the difference between winning and losing. This is a main reason I like turn-based games. It lets me agonize over my decisions instead of just throwing everything I have at a situation. [/B][/QUOTE]

I dont think it bogs it too much after all arty hasnt been so effective in 7.1 anymore. Those 75mm FH's feel like mortars, so they are quite useless IMO and got dissapointed to Katyusha also. I remember only one game where my opponent did surrender after first turn and after 30 real min arty barrage, because he did say he losed too much to have change to win, but i doubt it and im sure that most of his units were just deppressed a bit. ;) And mostly i play big games with big maps so if enemy is not a completely new to game it decreases arty effect down quite much cause area you are shooting at is large and cant be sure where to shoot at least in start of game and later i usually shoot my own troops more than enemy because of blitzkrieg ;) Always forgetting cancel those old arty orders....heheh

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OOB - 8/19/2002 8:07:21 PM

Curieus

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Hey, rbrunsman, how about posting your OOB and battle plans for Franko? Or did the file i sent you not work? Btw was busy with work, things might clear up now. Have found a possibly nice 2person scenario, what slot numbers have you free, so that we can investigate it?

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- 8/20/2002 1:14:15 AM

rbrunsman

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Curieus, I couldn't get to my OOBs in the end-game file and I don't remember the details of my army. Do you have a turn from before the end game? I'll be able to get it from that.

I'm using slots 3, 10 & 11 right now.
Send me a scenario. You pick the sides because I feel like a took advantage of you with my 210mms in the last battle. You can pay me back for the abuse you took. :D The only thing I require is C&C off.

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