Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

"Fires"?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> "Fires"? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
"Fires"? - 9/20/2010 4:41:35 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		I can't seem to locate any explanation of "fires" in the rules. I started about 250,000 of them in Tokyo a couple turns back..., but I can't see any effects. Could someone help please? 1945 is uncharted water for my opponent and myself.
Post #: 1
RE: "Fires"? - 9/20/2010 4:52:46 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Think 'fire storm' from a fire bombing campaign. Supposed to damage industry and manpower IIRC.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 2
RE: "Fires"? - 9/20/2010 4:53:21 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Have a peek at the first paragraph on page 152 of the manual. Fires can result from targetting Manpower Centers in a City Attack.

Alfred

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 3
RE: "Fires"? - 9/20/2010 4:56:24 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Have a peek at the first paragraph on page 152 of the manual. Fires can result from targetting Manpower Centers in a City Attack.

Alfred


They can also occur randomly. I've had bombardment TFs start raging fires before. They are probably targeting the Manpower in their bombard algorithm (when MP is present).

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 4
RE: "Fires"? - 9/20/2010 5:15:37 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Have a peek at the first paragraph on page 152 of the manual. Fires can result from targeting Manpower Centers in a City Attack.

Alfred



I understand how to start "fires"..., but I can't seem to see any results from
having done so. Nor can my opponent. Do they actually damage anything? And
how long does it take?

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 5
RE: "Fires"? - 9/20/2010 5:25:00 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Have a peek at the first paragraph on page 152 of the manual. Fires can result from targeting Manpower Centers in a City Attack.

Alfred



I understand how to start "fires"..., but I can't seem to see any results from
having done so. Nor can my opponent. Do they actually damage anything? And
how long does it take?


They have to get pretty big to do anything from what I've seen. Check your manpower from turn to turn, if anything, that will be what is damaged first. Also, check to make sure anything is actually producing with the fires going.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 6
RE: "Fires"? - 9/20/2010 6:15:10 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Have a peek at the first paragraph on page 152 of the manual. Fires can result from targeting Manpower Centers in a City Attack.

Alfred



I understand how to start "fires"..., but I can't seem to see any results from
having done so. Nor can my opponent. Do they actually damage anything? And
how long does it take?


They have to get pretty big to do anything from what I've seen. Check your manpower from turn to turn, if anything, that will be what is damaged first. Also, check to make sure anything is actually producing with the fires going.



Thanks..., I'll keep looking. But in a game that allows me to worry about the command capabilities of the CO of Garbage Scow 69 at Addu Atoll, I'd really expected something more visually satisfying to result from some of history's most devastating air attacks.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 7
RE: "Fires"? - 9/20/2010 8:05:04 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


..., I'll keep looking. But in a game that allows me to worry about the command capabilities of the CO of Garbage Scow 69 at Addu Atoll, I'd really expected something more visually satisfying to result from some of history's most devastating air attacks.



I don't know if you read many AARs of classical WITP, but in the earlier game, Speedy in his AAR v Fabertong commented on how disappointed he was with the damage caused by fires. He determined that it simply was not worthwhile and subsequently limited himself to targetting industry and leaving manpower alone. AFAIK, the AE devs did not alter this component.

Alfred

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 8
RE: "Fires"? - 9/20/2010 8:46:28 PM   
pws1225

 

Posts: 1166
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
Status: offline 		In my last game against the AI, I used B-29s from Formosa to bomb Osaka's manpower pool. After a couple of weeks of night time runs at 8,000 feet, light and heavy industry, as well as manpower, was damaged. At one point, 'Fires' were over a million. The effort was worth over 500 VPs. So from my limited experience, fires seem to impact more than just manpower, especially if you keep stirring up the rubble by repeated raids.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 9
RE: "Fires"? - 9/20/2010 8:50:36 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I don't know if you read many AARs of classical WITP, but in the earlier game, Speedy in his AAR v Fabertong commented on how disappointed he was with the damage caused by fires. He determined that it simply was not worthwhile and subsequently limited himself to targetting industry and leaving manpower alone. AFAIK, the AE devs did not alter this component.

Alfred


My distant memory is of some trigger number--like 80,000 (maybe 8000?)--Fires to equal a firestorm in WITP. A firestorm did significant damage over multiple days as I recall. Normal Fires went out after the day's turn resolution.

I can't remember what Fires damaged, but I also dimmly recall it being, maybe, Manpower, and then a random amount of random industries in the hex. Much like an A-bomb attack. OTOH, I also have dim memories of discussion saying a firestorm only upped the Manpower losses, so . . .

I never got a firestorm going in WITP, despite some 800+ plane B-29 raids. I think I got into the 30,000s (or 3000s if my decimal memory is off.)


_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 10
RE: "Fires"? - 9/22/2010 3:53:52 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		Well according to the "mouseover" I left 376,318 "fires" burning in Sasebo from last turn's attack. Is this enough to do something? Doesn't seem to be any sign of it...

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 11
RE: "Fires"? - 9/22/2010 5:31:29 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Suggest you look over the course of 2 or 3 turns and see what develops.

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 12
RE: "Fires"? - 9/22/2010 8:26:47 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


..., I'll keep looking. But in a game that allows me to worry about the command capabilities of the CO of Garbage Scow 69 at Addu Atoll, I'd really expected something more visually satisfying to result from some of history's most devastating air attacks.



I don't know if you read many AARs of classical WITP, but in the earlier game, Speedy in his AAR v Fabertong commented on how disappointed he was with the damage caused by fires. He determined that it simply was not worthwhile and subsequently limited himself to targetting industry and leaving manpower alone. AFAIK, the AE devs did not alter this component.

Alfred



that´s my guess on it too. Forget attacking manpower or creating fires, just kill all the industry, usually takes only one big attack to more or less knock out a big factory anyway.


_____________________________


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 13
RE: "Fires"? - 9/22/2010 1:00:52 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Suggest you look over the course of 2 or 3 turns and see what develops.



Well, the next turn continuing attacks started another 750,000+ "fires" (according to the combat reports, and taken with a large grain of salt). Still seemed like a good follow through. So imagine my surprise when the "mouseover" revealed only 125,000-odd "fires" at Sasebo after the second turn of bombing.

I guess Castor Troy is right. This is an area where all the designers from 2by3 right up through the AE team have failed miserably. Really a shame, as incindiaries proved the very best way historically to take out Japanese industries..., with or without a "firestorm".

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 14
RE: "Fires"? - 9/22/2010 1:18:54 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		The fires are reduced by the local fire departments after your attacks each day.  What you see in the mouseover is what is still burning after the firefighting efforts.  The way to really get a firestorm going is to do this for several days in a row, so the amount of fire remaining each day increases and continues to damage the other industry at the base.  The big issue with this being effective in WitP was the percentage of fires that got extinguished every day.  It was too high and never really left any fires burning to "build on" with the next day's attacks.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading that this was corrected in AE, and with 125k "fires" remaining after your turn, it seems to be more effective now...


_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 15
RE: "Fires"? - 9/22/2010 1:22:14 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		What he said.

And have a look at factories and such over those turns and see if they are being damaged/destroyed.

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 16
RE: "Fires"? - 9/22/2010 1:25:59 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Oh, yeah, I recall that the fires are supposed to actually destroy the factories instead of just damaging them.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 17
RE: "Fires"? - 9/22/2010 2:01:25 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

The fires are reduced by the local fire departments after your attacks each day.  What you see in the mouseover is what is still burning after the firefighting efforts.  The way to really get a firestorm going is to do this for several days in a row, so the amount of fire remaining each day increases and continues to damage the other industry at the base.  The big issue with this being effective in WitP was the percentage of fires that got extinguished every day.  It was too high and never really left any fires burning to "build on" with the next day's attacks.




That was basically what I did. Having 375,000 fires burning, the following turn I hit it heavily (and seemingly successfully) again. So imagine my surprise when the total of "fires" not only didn't increase, but actually decreased by 2/3rds. Rather counter-intuitive to say the least.

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 18
RE: "Fires"? - 9/22/2010 2:02:45 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline 		Down here in Texas, we call them "fars." As in "Hey, Alvin. Ju get thet far goin yet?"

Seriously.

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 19
RE: "Fires"? - 9/22/2010 6:40:39 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

Down here in Texas, we call them "fars." As in "Hey, Alvin. Ju get thet far goin yet?"

Seriously.



there is actually a sign about 50 miles from where I live that reads, and I quote:

'Farwood fer sale'

need I say more?

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to morganbj)
Post #: 20
RE: "Fires"? - 9/22/2010 7:20:06 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline 		I saw one once (about 1957) near Brownsville that said "Free Worms"

The line below it said "25 cents a dozen"



There was another guy who was selling bait up near Gothwaite. He was selling worms in old sterno cans. His sign said "Can 'o Worms 10 Cents or two for a Quarter." He said a lot of people bought two.


(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 21
RE: "Fires"? - 9/22/2010 11:56:07 PM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline 		If I bring a pig to the fire bombing, would it be called a roast? I can afford the pig, not the beer so BYOB.

_____________________________

ASUS Maximus IV Extreme-Z Intel Core I7 2800k Corsair Hydro Heatsink Corsair Vengeance DD3 24GB EVGA GTX 580 Western Digital 1.5TB Raid 0 Windows 7

(in reply to morganbj)
Post #: 22
RE: "Fires"? - 9/23/2010 11:56:11 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Fires in a city have a chance to go 'wild' and increase. More fires, higher the chance it will become a firestorm.
(a) You gain strategic points from the FIRE damage.
(b) MP is either destroyed or disabled by the FIRE.
(c) Other industry in city can become disabled by the FIRE.
All these are random events and each industry device in the city is checked.

Fires decrease at a lower rate in AE (4%) than WITP (10%).

Edit got the percentage wrong - it is .4 which is 40%

Edit sorry rates are complements to what I said:
Fires decrease at a lower rate in AE (60% per turn) than WITP (90% per turn). See post below for spreadsheet image

< Message edited by michaelm -- 9/24/2010 12:05:44 PM >

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to Misconduct)
Post #: 23
RE: "Fires"? - 9/23/2010 7:27:45 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Fires in a city have a chance to go 'wild' and increase. More fires, higher the chance it will become a firestorm.
(a) You gain strategic points from the FIRE damage.
(b) MP is either destroyed or disabled by the FIRE.
(c) Other industry in city can become disabled by the FIRE.
All these are random events and each industry device in the city is checked.

Fires decrease at a lower rate in AE (4%) than WITP (10%).



Are you sure about that 04% Mike? My experiance has been more like 64%.

quote:

That was basically what I did. Having 375,000 fires burning, the following turn I hit it heavily (and seemingly successfully) again. So imagine my surprise when the total of "fires" not only didn't increase, but actually decreased by 2/3rds. Rather counter-intuitive to say the least.

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 24
RE: "Fires"? - 9/24/2010 12:02:20 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Looks like I just took the numbers from the code formula without thinking; wasn't thinking too clearly. The correct values should be the complement of what I said: WITP is decreased by 90% to 10% of previous FIRES value, AE is decreased by 60% to 40% of the previous FIRES.

I have have put this into a spreadsheet to make it a bit clearer.

Based on the 375K fires, this is how the FIRES should decrease (assuming nothing else increased them) by the turn % and as a total %.
It shows the values from WITP and AE, and show that the FIRES can last twice as long with AE than it did with WITP.








Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 25
RE: "Fires"? - 9/24/2010 3:30:45 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

If I bring a pig to the fire bombing, would it be called a roast? I can afford the pig, not the beer so BYOB.

No, it would be called pig. A burnt pig, but a pig nonetheless.

(in reply to Misconduct)
Post #: 26
RE: "Fires"? - 9/24/2010 3:37:59 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

If I bring a pig to the fire bombing, would it be called a roast? I can afford the pig, not the beer so BYOB.

No, it would be called pig. A burnt pig, but a pig nonetheless.


I'd call it supper. Slightly overdone perhaps...but still edible.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to morganbj)
Post #: 27
RE: "Fires"? - 9/24/2010 10:14:26 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Looks like I just took the numbers from the code formula without thinking; wasn't thinking too clearly. The correct values should be the complement of what I said: WITP is decreased by 90% to 10% of previous FIRES value, AE is decreased by 60% to 40% of the previous FIRES.

I have have put this into a spreadsheet to make it a bit clearer.

Based on the 375K fires, this is how the FIRES should decrease (assuming nothing else increased them) by the turn % and as a total %.
It shows the values from WITP and AE, and show that the FIRES can last twice as long with AE than it did with WITP.




Thanks Mike..., nice to know I'm not crazy or being particularly put apon by the program.

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 28
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> "Fires"? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

2.969