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RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work

 
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RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 3:15:22 PM   
Sardaukar


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From: Finland/Israel
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202

11 or 12 I think

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Found some discussion with search function, mentioning that LRCAP works only within normal (clean range without droptanks) range of plane. So I bet range to TF is your problem. What is your planes' normal range without drop tanks?



Could there be some glitch that the planes WON'T go to LR-CAP when they have drop-tanks on (even if they would be within normal range?)


That can well be the case, might be worth making thread on Tech Support and putting save there.

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(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 31
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 3:22:11 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202

11 or 12 I think

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Found some discussion with search function, mentioning that LRCAP works only within normal (clean range without droptanks) range of plane. So I bet range to TF is your problem. What is your planes' normal range without drop tanks?




SoliInvictus202,

Sorry but you are quite mistaken.

The clean range of the A6M2 Zero is only 7 hexes for normal range, 9 hexes at extended. These ranges can be increased with the use of drop tanks up to 11 and 14 respectively. However, AFAIK, using drop tanks is not compatible with flying LRCAP. Thus, as pointed out in post #18, you are limited to a range of only 7 hexes if you want your ships to be LRCAP'ed by A6M2 Zeros.

From Kendari or Makassar the range to Koepang is 10 hexes. From Kendari to Denpassar the range is 13 hexes. from Makassar to Denpassar the range is 8 hexes. In all these instances the range is beyond the normal clean range of your Zeros.

Alfred

(in reply to SoliInvictus202)
Post #: 32
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 3:27:06 PM   
SoliInvictus202


Posts: 367
Joined: 8/27/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202

11 or 12 I think

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Found some discussion with search function, mentioning that LRCAP works only within normal (clean range without droptanks) range of plane. So I bet range to TF is your problem. What is your planes' normal range without drop tanks?




SoliInvictus202,

Sorry but you are quite mistaken.

The clean range of the A6M2 Zero is only 7 hexes for normal range, 9 hexes at extended. These ranges can be increased with the use of drop tanks up to 11 and 14 respectively. However, AFAIK, using drop tanks is not compatible with flying LRCAP. Thus, as pointed out in post #18, you are limited to a range of only 7 hexes if you want your ships to be LRCAP'ed by A6M2 Zeros.

From Kendari or Makassar the range to Koepang is 10 hexes. From Kendari to Denpassar the range is 13 hexes. from Makassar to Denpassar the range is 8 hexes. In all these instances the range is beyond the normal clean range of your Zeros.

Alfred


if that is the case - you can confirm that LRCap only works without droptanks?

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 33
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 3:39:35 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		I don't think drop tanks really matter, because LRCAP max. range is normal clean range. Thus it does not matter if you carry them or not, you can only LRCAP up to 7 hexes with A6M2.

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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to SoliInvictus202)
Post #: 34
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 3:42:56 PM   
SoliInvictus202


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I don't think drop tanks really matter, because LRCAP max. range is normal clean range. Thus it does not matter if you carry them or not, you can only LRCAP up to 7 hexes with A6M2.

quote:

.


ok...that explains yesterday's debacle...but still not the one before...as this was only (just checked) 6 hexes away from Kendari....so...this should have worked then...

anyway - thanks for all the answers.....

< Message edited by SoliInvictus202 -- 10/31/2010 3:47:55 PM >

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 35
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 3:51:49 PM   
SoliInvictus202


Posts: 367
Joined: 8/27/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline 		just one last question:

why select LRCAP - if CAP has the same effect? - i've seen ships being protected by Cap (first turn Buffaloes over Force Z, or several other occasions later on in my game as Allied) - and that works better apparently...

(in reply to SoliInvictus202)
Post #: 36
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 3:56:07 PM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Not sure I understand the question...? You can't give a destination for "CAP". You can set up a CAP and then hope for "leaking CAP" by increasing the max range, but you have no control whatsoever how many and where your fighters show up.

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Post #: 37
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 3:56:57 PM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Tip: if you want to LRCAP a TF and you know 100 % that this TF will end its turn in a certain base hex (either friendly of hostile), LRCAP the base, and not the TF.

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Post #: 38
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 3:59:44 PM   
Grollub


Posts: 6674
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From: Lulea, Sweden
Status: offline 		The manaul doesn't say anything specific about LRCAP and drop tanks. What it says, however, is (on p153); "The amount of fighters protecting the friendly units at the moment of an enemy airstrike is based on the range to the hex being protected and the normal radius of the aircraft flying Long Range CAP" (bold text put in by me).

In my games, I've never set LRCAP beyond normal range and I've had few problems. Ok, some times I've wished that the CAP would've been a little heavier, but such is life ...

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(in reply to SoliInvictus202)
Post #: 39
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 4:03:02 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		LRCAP (specifically because you can set a destination) is also used to intercept enemy transport planes dropping supplies, picking up/dropping LCUs.

As VSWG has posted, without the use of LRCAP you would be dependent on "leaky" CAP. That will deliver far fewer fighters than a dedicated LRCAP over your Task Force.

Alfred

(in reply to VSWG)
Post #: 40
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 4:06:54 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I don't think drop tanks really matter, because LRCAP max. range is normal clean range. Thus it does not matter if you carry them or not, you can only LRCAP up to 7 hexes with A6M2.

quote:

.


ok...that explains yesterday's debacle...but still not the one before...as this was only (just checked) 6 hexes away from Kendari....so...this should have worked then...

anyway - thanks for all the answers.....


I've gone over your posts in this thread and other than a reference made in your post #8, I failed to see any details about your apparent failure to LRCAP a TF at 6 hexes range. Could you provide some specific details (including screenshots) of the failure so that we can try to find the reason for the failure.

Alfred

(in reply to SoliInvictus202)
Post #: 41
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 4:08:53 PM   
SoliInvictus202


Posts: 367
Joined: 8/27/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline 		if you say so.....thanks for the tips all -
however as posted above I've had the most recent experience that not even a LRCap within 7 hexes does it's job...
well...it's the way it is....


thanks again for your help....

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 42
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 4:12:46 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202

if you say so.....thanks for the tips all -
however as posted above I've had the most recent experience that not even a LRCap within 7 hexes does it's job...
well...it's the way it is....


thanks again for your help....



But without any details on this <7 hexes failure, we can't establish the reason for the failure which in truth is probably quite different from the failure to LRCAP TFs at Koepang and Denpassar.

Alfred

(in reply to SoliInvictus202)
Post #: 43
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 4:22:57 PM   
SoliInvictus202


Posts: 367
Joined: 8/27/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:



But without any details on this <7 hexes failure, we can't establish the reason for the failure which in truth is probably quite different from the failure to LRCAP TFs at Koepang and Denpassar.

Alfred


as mentioned in the first post - it's was a TF enroute to Koepang....protected by that 44 zero unit (screenshot) - and it was sunk half way between Koepang and Kendari....

never mind though - it's the way it is...

now knowing that LRCap works differently my entire war plan is faulty as I expected to be able to protect all my operations to Koepang and Denpassar (which would have in turn taken over that duty for the next step) out of Kendari and Makassar - an assumption where I Was obviously wrong and thus the entire warplan will not work :D



< Message edited by SoliInvictus202 -- 10/31/2010 4:23:14 PM >

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 44
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 6:05:34 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I don't think drop tanks really matter, because LRCAP max. range is normal clean range. Thus it does not matter if you carry them or not, you can only LRCAP up to 7 hexes with A6M2.

i agree that drop tanks SHOULDN'T matter, but perhaps there is a glitch so in fact something unfortunate happens if you use them... and being it is a glitch, perhaps it might be affecting only certain aircraft?

Only one way to know - test it!

If a turn is sent to a dev, perhaps he can rerun it with and without drop tanks to see if it makes a difference.

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 45
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 6:07:32 PM   
SoliInvictus202


Posts: 367
Joined: 8/27/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I don't think drop tanks really matter, because LRCAP max. range is normal clean range. Thus it does not matter if you carry them or not, you can only LRCAP up to 7 hexes with A6M2.

i agree that drop tanks SHOULDN'T matter, but perhaps there is a glitch so in fact something unfortunate happens if you use them... and being it is a glitch, perhaps it might be affecting only certain aircraft?

Only one way to know - test it!

If a turn is sent to a dev, perhaps he can rerun it with and without drop tanks to see if it makes a difference.


as soon as I get such a situation again I will do exactly that!
thanks for the suggestion!

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 46
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 6:09:00 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I don't think drop tanks really matter, because LRCAP max. range is normal clean range. Thus it does not matter if you carry them or not, you can only LRCAP up to 7 hexes with A6M2.

i agree that drop tanks SHOULDN'T matter, but perhaps there is a glitch so in fact something unfortunate happens if you use them... and being it is a glitch, perhaps it might be affecting only certain aircraft?

Only one way to know - test it!

If a turn is sent to a dev, perhaps he can rerun it with and without drop tanks to see if it makes a difference.


as soon as I get such a situation again I will do exactly that!
thanks for the suggestion!


No saved turns?

(in reply to SoliInvictus202)
Post #: 47
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 6:41:20 PM   
SoliInvictus202


Posts: 367
Joined: 8/27/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline 		not the one from 5 days ago usually....but maybe I get lucky - I'll look....
the ones closer only involve LRCap which was obviously never going to work, as I understood it wrongly...

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 48
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 7:11:04 PM   
Herrbear


Posts: 883
Joined: 7/26/2004
From: Glendora, CA
Status: offline 		IIRC wasn't LRCAP originally set to a max range of 5? Did this get changed in AE?

(in reply to SoliInvictus202)
Post #: 49
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 7:12:49 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

IIRC wasn't LRCAP originally set to a max range of 5? Did this get changed in AE?

Well, the hexes are different size, so all the ranges are different...

(in reply to Herrbear)
Post #: 50
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 8:09:57 PM   
erstad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202

not the one from 5 days ago usually....but maybe I get lucky - I'll look....
the ones closer only involve LRCap which was obviously never going to work, as I understood it wrongly...


What about your incoming mail from your opponent? Would you have the turn there?

BTW, I would have said I have had LRCAP work with drop tanks (inside normal range with drop tanks), although I can't absolutely swear to that.

(in reply to SoliInvictus202)
Post #: 51
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 9:16:55 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		I had good luck setting my fighters to sweep, then making them 100% LRcap and assigning a target. They become tired pretty quick so it only is good for a couple of days but at least I have a few fighters up.

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Post #: 52
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 10/31/2010 9:20:38 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:


BTW, I would have said I have had LRCAP work with drop tanks (inside normal range with drop tanks), although I can't absolutely swear to that.


Odds are that it WILL work, but best to rule out a weird glitch...

i've seen glitches show up that occurred on one person's computer (mine) but not the devs... i finally traced the problem down to a screensaver i was running...

(in reply to erstad)
Post #: 53
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 11/20/2021 8:44:05 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline 		Trying to figure out LRCAP and this thread has me confused. In my current PBEM I am LRCAP with drop tanks over Kendari from Menado with Zeroes and they appear in the cap. If I am correct that is 9 hexes which is over the 7 hex normal range described above. Did something change with a patch?

Also can you LRCAP over any hex? An enemy base or any land unit in hex with no base? I saw in another thread it said you can only fly LRCAP over your own bases? I tried to LRCAP my own base next to an enemy base but no cap happens over the enemy base. So is it better to LRCAP the enemy base when that is the hex you want to protect your troops or does that not work as per below?

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2537158

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Putting LRCAP over enemy base wont work, except for planes that TARGET the base (you can intercept transport planes for example that try
to deliver supply there).

Also, why would you want to LRCAP a base when you can CAP your own? On LRCAP your pilot would be gone if he is shot down, over your own
base he has a chance of survival.
Obviousely you can LRACP your own bases, this is often useful when you want to concentrate defense but want to have the majority of your fighters
on safe bases out of range.

You could sweep the enemy base instead of bombing it. Thats very dangerous in the face of AAA though, but it can be brutal if the opponent overstacks.



< Message edited by Tanaka -- 11/20/2021 9:11:26 AM >

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Post #: 54
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 11/20/2021 11:34:59 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		You can LRCAP land units and naval TFs that are not at a base hex, if that is what you are wondering.

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(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 55
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 11/20/2021 11:37:22 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Just remember that the farther away the LRCAP is from the originating base, the more time and fuel it takes to travel there and back. Also, if I remember correctly, any distance traveled greater than two hexes away from the originating base increases the chance of OPs losses.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 56
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 11/20/2021 12:02:22 PM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline 		Plus fatigue and moral suffers. Also the farther away the lrcap from the base, the fewer aircraft will be on station....GP

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Post #: 57
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 11/20/2021 12:52:10 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I don't think drop tanks really matter, because LRCAP max. range is normal clean range. Thus it does not matter if you carry them or not, you can only LRCAP up to 7 hexes with A6M2.

i agree that drop tanks SHOULDN'T matter, but perhaps there is a glitch so in fact something unfortunate happens if you use them... and being it is a glitch, perhaps it might be affecting only certain aircraft?

Only one way to know - test it!

If a turn is sent to a dev, perhaps he can rerun it with and without drop tanks to see if it makes a difference.


Perhaps it's because once the drop tanks are enabled, what was normal range now becomes an extended version of normal range, that no longer qualifies for the coded definition of normal range.

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(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 58
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 11/20/2021 12:58:14 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Trying to figure out LRCAP and this thread has me confused. In my current PBEM I am LRCAP with drop tanks over Kendari from Menado with Zeroes and they appear in the cap. If I am correct that is 9 hexes which is over the 7 hex normal range described above. Did something change with a patch?

Also can you LRCAP over any hex? An enemy base or any land unit in hex with no base? I saw in another thread it said you can only fly LRCAP over your own bases? I tried to LRCAP my own base next to an enemy base but no cap happens over the enemy base. So is it better to LRCAP the enemy base when that is the hex you want to protect your troops or does that not work as per below?

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2537158

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Putting LRCAP over enemy base wont work, except for planes that TARGET the base (you can intercept transport planes for example that try
to deliver supply there).

Also, why would you want to LRCAP a base when you can CAP your own? On LRCAP your pilot would be gone if he is shot down, over your own
base he has a chance of survival.
Obviousely you can LRACP your own bases, this is often useful when you want to concentrate defense but want to have the majority of your fighters
on safe bases out of range.

You could sweep the enemy base instead of bombing it. Thats very dangerous in the face of AAA though, but it can be brutal if the opponent overstacks.



LoBaron's point is that LRCAP is to cover your own forces, not interdict the enemy. And since LRCAP do not act as escorts, they don't help your bombers over the enemy base, AFAIK. For TFs moving at sea, once LRCAP is set over it, the assigned squadrons will try to keep it up as long as the TF is in range and weather permits.

If you set a LRCAP outside of normal range for the aircraft, I think it will automatically equip drop tanks. The A6M2 can make 14 hexes with DTs.

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(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 59
RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work - 11/20/2021 2:02:44 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline 		Oopsie, so drop tanks could be an issue for LR-CAP ? I thought they would help - also for better loiter time and staying in combat longer?

Perhaps this is the reason so few of my fighters show up at LR sorties, need to try w/out droptanks then!

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 60
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