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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/9/2010 11:25:38 PM

Swayin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: blastpop
I've been playing for over an hour and have not yet finished the German 1st turn. What are you folks experiencing for the first turn of the scenario and the length of the game?

I played the scenario twice last night in about three hours for both attempts -

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/9/2010 11:53:09 PM

Zaratoughda

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jjax... your units start out with 2 turns worth of supply, and then the panzers get so far in front of the railhead that it hard to get much supply normally, but then there is air supply.

Units being within a certain distance of their HQs is significant for command control purposes, and units that are not, lose a lot of MPs so, probably that is the major factor in your units 'running out of gas'.

Zaratoughda

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Post #: 62

RE: Road To Minsk - 12/9/2010 11:56:18 PM

hgilmer3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

jjax... you might try letting the AI play against the AI and watching how it proceeds, and then trying it again and seeing if you can do better.

Watching the AI play against the AI gets you past the obvious, and that is a big step.

Zaratoughda

I used AI vs AI to figure out strategy in the Battle in Normandy game I have. It gives you ideas on where to go with how many units and what units.

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Post #: 63

RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:03:45 AM

Krec

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Took Minsk on T 3 Ended up with a Minor Loss. Great fun.

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Post #: 64

RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:09:25 AM

hgilmer3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Krec

Took Minsk on T 3 Ended up with a Minor Loss. Great fun.

That's what happened with me. I took Misnk on T3 and then I realized I was supposed to capture more cities.

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Post #: 65

RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:16:36 AM

Krec

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i think a draw is about what you can get.
the other point citys are on the far right side
i killed just about everything in site although i ended T4 early could have killed a few more units , was really fun , love the movies at the end , really cool footage.
This game is very good.

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Post #: 66

RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:18:57 AM

pompack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Thanks Trey.

BA - makes sense. Still much for me to learn on this but I'm happy with how I managed to achieve a Major Victory on this one...of course if it was a campaign would need to have refined things more.

jjax - Only played this one twice and got a major victory last time. I guess if you could show a screenshot or two of your dispositions it could help? What I've found so far is that you need to use your infantry to blast holes in the frontier for your panzers to roll forward to create an encirclement west if Minsk on Turn 1. Turn 2 should be focussed on liquidation of the pocket by infantry as your Panzers take Minsk and head east with infantry following on and covering the flanks. Turn 3 should be a rush for Mogilev etc by your Panzers. If you do that you'll get a Major victory.

How have you played it so far?

Thanks for the tips. I think my biggest problem is that I am not securing my flanks. My Panzers are running out of juice before they get to their objectives; so my supply lines must be getting cut.

If I still can't score a minor victory, I'll post a shot and beg for some more help.

AI Vs AI sounds like a good idea as well.

On another thread BigAnorak provided the most important tip that I have seen yet: before you end the turn, hit "c" and sort on the "DtHQ" column and look for negative numbers; anyone with a negative distance is too far from the next higher HQ and won't get many movement points next turn. Then move the HQs or the units to fix the problem.

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Post #: 67

RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:23:04 AM

Krec

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What i find works for me is to clear a path then bring the HQ up close to its units. Never had any problems moving units . Just keep that HQ close.

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:24:40 AM

pompack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Krec

What i find works for me is to clear a path then bring the HQ up close to its units. Never had any problems moving units . Just keep that HQ close.

I tried that before I used "c" but then I discovered that it was the HQs themselves that were out of range.

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Post #: 69

RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:26:22 AM

Krec

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You can tell too by the colors of the Units, Red=bad yellow=ok blue=best the closer the better.

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:28:45 AM

pompack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Krec

You can tell too by the colors of the Units, Red=bad yellow=ok blue=best the closer the better.

Which setting do you use for that?

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:30:22 AM

Krec

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i dont know . but the units turn colors when i select the HQ .

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:32:26 AM

Krec

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The whole Air thing is still a mystery to me though . i dont do Manuals so i am flying by the seat of my pants . How does air work , i cant figure it out for nothing other then flying AI recon missions.

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:38:25 AM

pompack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Krec

i dont know . but the units turn colors when i select the HQ .

Ah, got it now. I thought you meant the colored corners. I keep that set to display morale but I would be interested in what other people monitor with it and why they do it.

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 1:24:26 AM

hgilmer3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Krec

The whole Air thing is still a mystery to me though . i dont do Manuals so i am flying by the seat of my pants . How does air work , i cant figure it out for nothing other then flying AI recon missions.

There's a good turn 1 deal with the air corp in the War Room, I think. Tells you what to do on the 1st turn of the big campaign.

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 2:09:28 AM

jjax

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

jjax... your units start out with 2 turns worth of supply, and then the panzers get so far in front of the railhead that it hard to get much supply normally, but then there is air supply.

Units being within a certain distance of their HQs is significant for command control purposes, and units that are not, lose a lot of MPs so, probably that is the major factor in your units 'running out of gas'.

Zaratoughda

I played a non-serious game just to see how far I could get a group of Panzers across the map with their HQs (I did not make an attempt for Minsk). I actually reached one of the far victory locations on turn 3; so I do think my HQs were a little far in the previous game. Thxs!

quote:

On another thread BigAnorak provided the most important tip that I have seen yet: before you end the turn, hit "c" and sort on the "DtHQ" column and look for negative numbers; anyone with a negative distance is too far from the next higher HQ and won't get many movement points next turn. Then move the HQs or the units to fix the problem.

I had no idea that this screen existed; so very useful tip. I'm waiting until I get some holiday time before I dive deep into the manual (I choose to play rather than read on the little free time I get at the moment

).

So now it's just the matter of putting all the pieces together.

< Message edited by jjax -- 12/10/2010 2:10:33 AM >

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 4:45:47 AM

hgilmer3

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Yes. Make very sure your units are close to the HQ.

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 10:25:06 AM

fsp

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LOVING THE GAME!

I downloaded it right when it came out, but alas, had to work late on Tuesday night, then again work early on Wednesday, girl-friend here on Wednesday night, so no time for WITE. Work early on Thursday until 9pm, but then it was WITE time. Played the tutorial which helped a lot, though I would have wished for it to cover the use of air units other than having them on automatic.

Then figured, a 3 turn scenario sounds like a good start. Did not bother with the air force as I did not have the time to get into that. Started with the knowledge from the tutorial and had a blast. My plan was to open avenues of approach with my slower moving infantry to let the Panzer roam. I formed a decent enough pocket I think. But I did not get my Panzer close enough to Minsk in turn 1. I wanted to bypass Minsk with some Panzer groups in the South to take the eastmost objectives. I figured if I moved along the rail lines I would be fine. Turned out that rail lines in swamp do not make for super highways like I though :-)

I left some wider gaps in my inital encirclement and left some HQs undefended but I figured I could take that risk due to it being turn 1 and my opponent being the AI and hardly any Soviet units spotted.

I ended up with lots of units next to Minsk on turn 3, but could not take it as I could only make hasty attacks.
Soviets had around 280,000 casualties at the end, so I did well enough there but utterly failed everywhere else. Major Soviet victory.

Result: I suck. Game is simply great. Can't wait to play more.
I have tons of questions and should really read the manual before dumping them all in the forums.

Just one now:
Is supply even important for the Germans in this short scenario? Have not read about how it works, but from what I figure, your Panzer advance so far along the Russian gauge rail lines that there is no way they can be fixed in three turns, so why bother other than having your HQs close and keeping the line open? Does it do any good at all?

< Message edited by fsp -- 12/10/2010 10:27:45 AM >

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 11:36:59 AM

ComradeP

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quote:

Is supply even important for the Germans in this short scenario? Have not read about how it works, but from what I figure, your Panzer advance so far along the Russian gauge rail lines that there is no way they can be fixed in three turns, so why bother other than having your HQs close and keeping the line open? Does it do any good at all?

If you don't use air supply, the fuel your Panzers will have on the last turn will be minimal. However, due to the extremely limited number of turns, supply is much less of an issue than in other scenarios. The lack of logistics constraints can go for both sides. The Soviets don't need to worry about evacuating factories, for example, so they can use all their rail transport points for unit movement.

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:15:18 PM

jjdenver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe
The key to getting enemy units to surrender is that they have to spend a full turn isolated so if the Soviets re-established supply during their turn, you would have to wait another turn after you re-establish the encirclement before you get those Soviet units to surrender instead of routing and/or shattering. During that time frame, the Soviets could slip some of their units out of the trap either by movement or getting routed out of the pocket.

What does "routed out of the pocket" mean? How does that mechanic work? Thanks.

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:17:27 PM

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post deleted

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:27:48 PM

ComradeP

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quote:

What does "routed out of the pocket" mean? How does that mechanic work? Thanks.

JJ, when a unit is theoretically in a pocket (as in: surrounded by enemy hexes) but has not spend a turn in such a state (as in: it's the same turn as when that pocket was created) and the unit routs, it will have a chance of routing out of the pocket, which is not desirable as you're creating pockets to bag as many units as you can.

quote:

I'm sure it's in the rules which I'm working on wading through, but what is that "certain distance" in hexes?

Combat units are considered to be in HQ range if they're less than 5 hexes away, but up to a certain number of MP's (which I can't find in the manual at the moment, so I'll get back to you about that) it takes to get to that hex, so units in mountains and swamps quickly move out of the range.

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:30:11 PM

karonagames

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quote:

which I can't find in the manual at the moment

20Mps - it is important to remember this for units on the far side of Pockets, because although they are within 5 hexes they could be more than 20 MPs.

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:31:33 PM

ComradeP

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Which section is it in, I was looking in 7.6.4? Is it in a section about supply?

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:40:45 PM

karonagames

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20.4.1.1. SUPPLY PATH TRACE MP COST
The movement point cost for all supply path traces are calculated as if the path was being
travelled by a motorized unit with a morale of 99 (14.1.2). All motorized movement point costs
are taken into account, to include EZOC, weather, terrain, and river hexsides. When tracing
from a rail hex on the grid to an undamaged rail hex adjacent to an enemy unit, as long as the
supply trace is not leaving an enemy ZOC, the supply trace will only cost one MP to trace into
that hex, representing limited use of rail lines in hexes adjacent to enemy units. Supply can
be traced through an enemy ZOC as long as the hex is friendly controlled or pending friendly,
though tracing supply this way will result in increased MP costs. Supply paths cannot be traced
through enemy controlled hexes or across unfrozen impassable lake or river hexsides. For
purposes of meeting the five hex and twenty MP limits on tracing from a HQ unit to a combat
unit, the five hexes are �as the crow flies�, while the MP path can be traced separately through
more than five hexes as long as it is less than twenty MPs long. Both limits must be met
however or the combat unit must trace directly to the railhead.

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:43:33 PM

karonagames

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20.4.1. TRACING SUPPLY
In order to receive supply, a combat unit first attempts to trace a path to the headquarters
unit to which it is attached. The combat unit must be within both five hexes and twenty MPs
of the applicable headquarters unit. In order for a headquarters unit to provide supply to its
attached combat and support units, it in turn must be within both 25 hexes and 100 MPs of
a railhead. If a combat unit cannot trace an eligible path to its headquarters unit, it will then
attempt to trace a path to a railhead as if it was a headquarters unit, i.e. within both 25 hexes
and 100 MPs of the railhead. Note that Air base and Rail repair units, though HQ units, are
267
treated as combat units for supply purposes per the above. Also note the distinction between
supply state and tracing supply, in that a unit that is within 100 MPs, but not within 25 hexes,
is considered in supply, but nonetheless, will not be able to receive supply due to exceeding
the 25 hex requirement.

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 12:50:41 PM

ComradeP

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Might be an idea to place the maximum MP cost in section 7.6.4 too, with a reference that more details can be found in section 20.4.1

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 2:05:46 PM

fsp

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I believe I did better in my second attempt. Would someone more experienced care to analyse this screenshot for big mistakes? Which of this would not hold up to a human player in THAT scenario (I know that some of those advances are reckless but they should work in that scenario even against a human, or am I wrong?).

Also - would it have been possible to occupy BOTH Kaunas and Vilnius?

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 2:12:06 PM

Great_Ajax

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fsp, that looks pretty good. I would have wiped out those three Soviet units west of Minsk just to be sure. ZOC 4 hexes or more wide is very difficult for a Soviet player to re-establish supply. Three or less is questionable.

Trey

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RE: Road To Minsk - 12/10/2010 3:15:43 PM

ComradeP

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The unit in Kaunas usually looks stronger than it is, I usually use a deliberate attack with 3 units to remove it.

I'm guessing the Soviets can restore supply like this: