RE: WITE vs. WITP

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RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/27/2011 8:40:25 AM

warspite1

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Interesting point of view Bullwinkle. Personally I do not have a problem playing any side. My preference for any given game only tends to depend on what I am reading up on at the time, but I certainly have no problem playing Japanese and trying to sink RN ships, or playing Germans and trying to kick Winnie off the continent of Europe. After all these are only war-games.

As much as my natural tendency would be to want to win as the Allies, sometimes you just want to get your hands on those lovely panzer armies or the Kido Butai!

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RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/27/2011 8:53:18 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Would also add the geographic customer base to be a significant factor. As a generalisation, I would suggest that the overwhelming majority of continental European plus Canadian wargamers would have very little interest in the PTO, instead focussing very much on the ETO. Whereas the interest in the two theatres from American, British and Australian wargamers would be more evenly distributed.

I have the same idea as yours: European are more interested in ETO while American and British in PTO.
It would be interesting a survey in WITP/AE and WITE forums asking for players' nationality.

Warspite1

We'll I'm British and I'll play either theatre. I think generally it's nearly always better to have your own side involved in any game.

But I can make an exception for the Russian front because quite simply it was the biggest land war ever and so is fascinating to anyone that likes the "big picture". Ditto the Pacific war - I would play that even without British Indian ocean and later BPF involvement for the same reason as above.

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Post #: 122

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/27/2011 9:14:22 AM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Interesting point of view Bullwinkle. Personally I do not have a problem playing any side. My preference for any given game only tends to depend on what I am reading up on at the time, but I certainly have no problem playing Japanese and trying to sink RN ships, or playing Germans and trying to kick Winnie off the continent of Europe. After all these are only war-games.

I don't claim to be consistent. Once upon a time I trained to help kill tens of millions of people in an hour's time. I would have helped launch those missiles if ordered. But I don't hunt, and I don't fish. Killing for pleasure seems a strange pastime to me.

I can play chess and feel no animosity to the black or white. I don't feel bad if I play as Carthage and beat up on Romans. Even Napoleonic war scenarios have an historical argument on both sides for me. But as I get closer to home things change. I really don't enjoy playing the CSA, even though my closest thing to a hometown is in Virginia. And I have significant problems playing the Nazis or communist sides, including China or North Korea or North Vietnam. The latter two are more personal and real in my family and experience.

Lately there's been a fairly big scuffle here in the USA over a new first person shooter game where the player can play the Taliban side. Huge media attention, retailers refusing to stock, calls for boycotts, etc. I guess I just push that "too soon" line back a bit farther than the average bear.

Edit: I'm going to exit this thread here as I don't want it to turn political. No intention of that on my part. If nothing else, I think it's an interesting topic for wargame developers to consider when doing sales volume projections. Alfred's thoughts on geography are probably more useful than my inner decision making process. I'd be interested in seeing the sales skews for WitE broken out by nation.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 1/27/2011 9:22:24 AM >

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Post #: 123

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/27/2011 2:51:35 PM

LST Express

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[/quote] Warspite1

We'll I'm British and I'll play either theatre. I think generally it's nearly always better to have your own side involved in any game.

But I can make an exception for the Russian front because quite simply it was the biggest land war ever and so is fascinating to anyone that likes the "big picture". Ditto the Pacific war - I would play that even without British Indian ocean and later BPF involvement for the same reason as above.
[/quote]

As an American this opinion fits my line of thinking to a tee when it comes to playing wite-witpae.

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Post #: 124

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/27/2011 3:03:20 PM

Nikademus

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When modern armies conduct wargames/maneuvers....someone has to play the OPFORCE. I seriously doubt any of the soliders who do so have moral qualms. It's part of the job, and the challenge.

Personally.....I feel that anyone who refuses to play one side of a warGAME under 'any' circumstances has issues they are unwilling to admit too. Sorry if that offends anyone but after 10 years and the bile i've seen bubble over on this forum at times.....there it is.

Shooters are a different issue. One is dealing with in your face graphic violence and i can well understand the controversey caused by a game that allows you to play a side killing graphically represented and realistic images of soldiers from your country that are currently involved in a real life conflict. Closest i've gotten is "Wolfenstein" and there are times when i get a little uncomfortable "Killing" the 0's and 1's that are being more and more realistically portrayed in such 3D environments. Sure you can placate oneself by saying...."well they're Nazi soldiers"....which is actually the official line for that game. (The enemy is never referred to as "The Germans".....they are always called "The Nazis".....that makes it safe and ok)

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Post #: 125

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/27/2011 3:15:53 PM

SuluSea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I plan to play the Japanese side next game in AE, but more to get full value from my purchase and to see the production system. I don't relish trying to sink ships of my navy.

I'd love to play the Japanese side but I have to overcome this mental hurdle as well.

but in WITE I only want to play the Axis side.

Which could be due to my surname.

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Post #: 126

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/28/2011 7:11:10 PM

ChickenOfTheSea

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The problem may be one of mindset. My father (about to turn 92) was a U.S. Army officer in the 1944 New Guinea campaign and 1945 Philippines campaign. Back in WITP I was playing the the Japanese in a PBEM and he gave me some advice for playing Japan, especially in the Southwest Pacific. He said "Don't spread yourself too thin like the Japanese did. It makes it too easy to bypass your strong points and cut off your supplies."

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Post #: 127

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/28/2011 7:13:31 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

but in WITE I only want to play the Axis side.

I just wanna play WitE period.

Maybe in Feb i can scrape up the dough. Who needs garbage service? i'll just bury it in the neighbor's yard.

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Post #: 128

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/28/2011 7:26:16 PM

ChickenOfTheSea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

but in WITE I only want to play the Axis side.

I just wanna play WitE period. Maybe in Feb i can scrape up the dough. Who needs garbage service? i'll just bury it in the neighbor's yard.

It's a nice game Nik. I think you'll enjoy it. While I love AE, I don't see how I could possibly find the time for a full game PBEM while I might be able to work one it for WITE.

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Post #: 129

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/28/2011 7:32:57 PM

Nikademus

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I spent many a high school year playing the 8 bit version of War in Russia, then post high school years playing the PC ver of Second Front (later renamed War in Russia) on an old 8088 computer.

probably logged more hours on subject of the Eastern front than any game subject up to that point....then just stopped one day. (Pacwar was partly a culprit)

Outside of a decade and a half love affair with Steel Panthers and it's decendants, i havn't returned. I think i'm ready now.

The map does look gorgeous.

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Post #: 130

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/28/2011 7:56:40 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Interesting point of view Bullwinkle. Personally I do not have a problem playing any side. My preference for any given game only tends to depend on what I am reading up on at the time, but I certainly have no problem playing Japanese and trying to sink RN ships, or playing Germans and trying to kick Winnie off the continent of Europe. After all these are only war-games.

I don't claim to be consistent. Once upon a time I trained to help kill tens of millions of people in an hour's time. I would have helped launch those missiles if ordered. But I don't hunt, and I don't fish. Killing for pleasure seems a strange pastime to me.

I can play chess and feel no animosity to the black or white. I don't feel bad if I play as Carthage and beat up on Romans. Even Napoleonic war scenarios have an historical argument on both sides for me. But as I get closer to home things change. I really don't enjoy playing the CSA, even though my closest thing to a hometown is in Virginia. And I have significant problems playing the Nazis or communist sides, including China or North Korea or North Vietnam. The latter two are more personal and real in my family and experience.

Lately there's been a fairly big scuffle here in the USA over a new first person shooter game where the player can play the Taliban side. Huge media attention, retailers refusing to stock, calls for boycotts, etc. I guess I just push that "too soon" line back a bit farther than the average bear.

Edit: I'm going to exit this thread here as I don't want it to turn political. No intention of that on my part. If nothing else, I think it's an interesting topic for wargame developers to consider when doing sales volume projections. Alfred's thoughts on geography are probably more useful than my inner decision making process. I'd be interested in seeing the sales skews for WitE broken out by nation.

I hear 'ya, moose. I'm mostly there too. You give excellent personal examples that I can appreciate too.

My strongest feelings along those lines pertain to the CSA personally. Haven't, can't, won't ever be able to stomach playing them. I have family and friends from both North and South that are still sensitive to the ACW. For many of them, this topic is still raw. Heck, my MIL's (unofficial) Kentucky HS motto was that "The South will Rise Again". I kid you not.

Do I have 'issues'? Perhaps so, but there it is. Probably would never, for pleasure, play the VC, NVA, DPRK or Chinese sides, as these combatants are still 'too soon' IMO. Taliban? Same story, moreso.

For all of my time with UV and WiTP, I only played the Allies (against the AI). My first go around with AE was as Allies against the AI too. Eventually, when this was no longer challenging, I needed to go sniffing around for a PBEM partner. My reasons since then for playing exclusively as the IJ are because of the sheer gameplay choices. IJ PBEM partners are (still) in short supply, Allied PBEM partners are commonplace. Thus far, I'm enjoying it very much.

If I may suggest: I try to embrace the IJ 'dark side', but in a comical way, if that makes sense. My worthy opponents are *always* gaijin Yankee dogs. I tell 'em what the emperor ate for breakfast. I make fun of Eleanor Roosevelt's overbite. If I had to dwell on the IRL dark side to the IJ, I wouldn't enjoy myself at all, so I steer away from that with overstated humor / intentionally lopsided viewpoint and focus on gameplay. I try not to think about playing 'the bad guys'. Eventually, it gets easier.

As for WiTP:AE v. WITE: The Eastern front is interesting from military history perspective, to be sure. However, WITE is unlikely to be able to produce the same combined arms rock-paper-scissors game that is AE. I've played other war games on other fronts or other wars. When I say that AE is unique, I'm not just whistling Dixie here. I'm totally p*wned by this game and have no time for others.

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Post #: 131

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/28/2011 7:59:09 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I spent many a high school year playing the 8 bit version of War in Russia, then post high school years playing the PC ver of Second Front (later renamed War in Russia) on an old 8088 computer.

probably logged more hours on subject of the Eastern front than any game subject up to that point....then just stopped one day. (Pacwar was partly a culprit)

Outside of a decade and a half love affair with Steel Panthers and it's decendants, i havn't returned. I think i'm ready now.

The map does look gorgeous.

I tell ya what, Nik. 'Cause you're such a great guy and I want you to be happy, I'll let you collect my trash and bury it in your neighbor's yard. If you come out here to collect it and can assure me that it's buried in your neighbor's yard, I'll pay you enough to get a digital download of WITE. 'Cause that's the sort of guy I am. We're only something like 1500 miles apart.

You oughta be able to make the drive out and back in 6 days. Seven tops.

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Post #: 132

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/28/2011 8:11:38 PM

Nikademus

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you are a GREAT guy!

+ I have to play the General Winter scenario with you too........as the Germans.

right?

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RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/28/2011 8:24:06 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

you are a GREAT guy!

+ I have to play the General Winter scenario with you too........as the Germans.

right?

Around here, I'm already playing the 'winter scenario'...

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Post #: 134

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/28/2011 8:25:32 PM

Nikademus

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wish we were.

This was supposed to be an interesting winter for us here......instead other than one week in November....its been a wet bust.

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RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/28/2011 9:02:12 PM

USSAmerica

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I spent many a high school year playing the 8 bit version of War in Russia, then post high school years playing the PC ver of Second Front (later renamed War in Russia) on an old 8088 computer.

probably logged more hours on subject of the Eastern front than any game subject up to that point....then just stopped one day. (Pacwar was partly a culprit)

Outside of a decade and a half love affair with Steel Panthers and it's decendants, i havn't returned. I think i'm ready now.

The map does look gorgeous.

I tell ya what, Nik. 'Cause you're such a great guy and I want you to be happy, I'll let you collect my trash and bury it in your neighbor's yard. If you come out here to collect it and can assure me that it's buried in your neighbor's yard, I'll pay you enough to get a digital download of WITE. 'Cause that's the sort of guy I am. We're only something like 1500 miles apart.

You oughta be able to make the drive out and back in 6 days. Seven tops.

I made the drive by myself from Seattle to Rochester in 2 days. Wimp!

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RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/28/2011 9:26:55 PM

Nomad

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I just bought WitE last night. My very first board war game ever was SPI's original 4 map version of War in the East. I think I first played it about 1971.

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RE: WITE vs. WITP - 1/28/2011 10:29:43 PM

Schanilec

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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I spent many a high school year playing the 8 bit version of War in Russia, then post high school years playing the PC ver of Second Front (later renamed War in Russia) on an old 8088 computer.

probably logged more hours on subject of the Eastern front than any game subject up to that point....then just stopped one day. (Pacwar was partly a culprit)

Outside of a decade and a half love affair with Steel Panthers and it's decendants, i havn't returned. I think i'm ready now.

The map does look gorgeous.

I tell ya what, Nik. 'Cause you're such a great guy and I want you to be happy, I'll let you collect my trash and bury it in your neighbor's yard. If you come out here to collect it and can assure me that it's buried in your neighbor's yard, I'll pay you enough to get a digital download of WITE. 'Cause that's the sort of guy I am. We're only something like 1500 miles apart.

You oughta be able to make the drive out and back in 6 days. Seven tops.

I made the drive by myself from Seattle to Rochester in 2 days. Wimp!

Beat you by 11 hours Grand Forks to San Diego in 37 hours. I'll give you 3 for Rochester. So 8

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RE: WITE vs. WITP - 2/9/2011 8:45:17 PM

Alpha77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Would also add the geographic customer base to be a significant factor. As a generalisation, I would suggest that the overwhelming majority of continental European plus Canadian wargamers would have very little interest in the PTO, instead focussing very much on the ETO. Whereas the interest in the two theatres from American, British and Australian wargamers would be more evenly distributed.

I would attribute this primarily to two factors; location knowledge and national participation.

This. Compared to ETO I too have very little interest in the PTO. The complexity of WITPAE didnt turn me away, and the ground combat, to be fair, is fairly simple. At least compared to many other games around, where the naval and/or aerial warfare, instead, is the more abstracted part in the game.

However I personally have no problems to play for/as any nation. As long as the game doesnt give me points for getting rid of Jews and Slavic peoples, or I dont score for every 100,000 dead jap/german civilians. In WitPAE there is a reason other than "breaking morale" in strategic bombing, and manpower is not the only selectable target, but ie. Bombing the Reich's system of giving "terror points" for destroyed civilian targets made me uneasy. I can play it, but I dont like it. Historical in that the only way area bombing helps the player are the terror points counted in the total points instead of directly or indirectly helping the war effort, but still.

Exactly my thoughts..... I can play also any side, I even am very interested in the Am. Civil War even it has very little to do with us in Western Europe. Also I played an obscure game with some Balcan wars.

I also agree with to the limits you write down, means I am not interested in any game to bomb or slaughter civilians. If there are factories to bomb ok, but not population centers just as "morale bombing" (term from Churchill or Harris?)....

But have to say, I was quite bored with East Front, from the Steel Panthers, WIR and TOAW scens I played over all the years. So WITP was an interesting change and I just love all those WW2 or WW1 style warships.

Btw: I still have some AMIGA games, among them this one:

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/9/2011 8:48:24 PM >

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Post #: 139

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 2/21/2011 2:56:12 PM

Canoerebel

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I've been monitoring forum use for AE and WitE. It seems like a human being might have better things to do than this, but this has been of interest since my opponent got sucked into WitE in a pretty big way. At first, I wondered whether WitE might be the undoing of the AE forums, though I believed (and believe) that a game focused on the Pacific is probably going to have longer legs than one based solely on land combat.

For several months after the release of WitE, I was seeing use in the forums for the two games running about 2:1 in favor of WitE. Over the past ten days or two weeks, though, that advantage seems to have dropped dramatically. In the past several days, I have even seen the AE forum running ahead of WitE at times, though usually WitE still has a small lead, as it does at the moment.

All of us want WitE to succeed in the interest of the future of "traditional" war gaming, but at the same time it would have been demoralizing to witness a decline of the AE forums. I don't think that is going to happen any time soon, however.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/21/2011 3:05:25 PM >

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RE: WITE vs. WITP - 2/21/2011 5:21:53 PM

berto

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I concur. Visitor counts at the WITE and WITP:AE fora have achieved a rough parity over the past couple of weeks. Sometimes WITE is ahead, at other times WITP:AE. I'll bet that, a few months from now, WITP:AE will again be the undisputed champ.

We can all breathe a big sigh of relief. WITE is not the death of WITP:AE.

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Post #: 141

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 2/21/2011 7:12:00 PM

Nikademus

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i'm confused as to why some people think that WitE's popularity level might threaten that of WitP:AE?

I have both games now myself.

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RE: WITE vs. WITP - 2/21/2011 7:13:43 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

i'm confused as to why some people think that WitE's popularity level might threaten that of WitP:AE?

I have both games now myself.

Warspite1

Me too - reckon there is a lot who have both.

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RE: WITE vs. WITP - 2/21/2011 7:19:35 PM

Nomad

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I own both games and visit both forums, but I do spend more time in AE than WitE. If I ever get comfortable with WitE I would like to try a PBEM game, but for now I am very comfortable with AE and play multiple PBEM games.

I am positive that neither WitE or AE will disappear any time soon.

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Post #: 144

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 2/21/2011 7:29:59 PM

Canoerebel

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My AE opponent pretty much disappeared into WitE-land. I know that has happened in four or five other AE PBEM games, too, as I received emails and PMs from players were were in various stages of displeasure over the abandoments. So I think some of us developed a feeling that WitE might pose a threat to AE if that trend continued, but it seems to have tapered off considerably over the past few weeks.

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Post #: 145

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 2/21/2011 7:35:13 PM

Nomad

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I had one AE PBEM game dwindle away, but strangly he seems to be continuing another AE PBEM game. I didn't really press it, he didn't respond to one turn and a follow up didn't get any response, so I just dropped it.

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Post #: 146

RE: WITE vs. WITP - 2/21/2011 7:35:43 PM

invernomuto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

i'm confused as to why some people think that WitE's popularity level might threaten that of WitP:AE?

I have both games now myself.

+1.
And WITP:AE is still better, IMHO.

< Message edited by invernomuto -- 2/21/2011 8:13:30 PM >

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RE: WITE vs. WITP