Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Like the AI, but need some advice

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 3:10:47 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline 		So do you recommend I play with 110% set?  Is that just for Morale or Admin too?  Will that give me a less a-historical experience or will it become even harder than it was historically?

_____________________________

WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 31
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 3:25:09 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		I've looked at the save you sent, and I think you should keep going as you are- you need to do a lot more recon- GAIA has a nice surprise waiting at Kiev - she has thinned the line elswhere.

_____________________________

It's only a Game


(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 32
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 3:29:22 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I bet the AI has pulled back behind Dnepr in the south. You've got a bare handful of panzer divisions marching into a vacuum but they aren't going to go far past the river by themselves.

Like Bob says, your recon isn't giving you the full picture here.




_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 33
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 3:46:05 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline 		No offence, and thanks for the time spent on investigating this, but...

My point is that while GAIA might be doing wonderfully clever things (I never complained that defence in depth before Smolensk isn't smart) it is not playing like a Soviet 1941 general. 

It was never my impression that WiTE was intended to be some kind of HOI WW2 fantasy game.  If I am wrong, please correct me.


_____________________________

WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 34
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 3:50:45 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Redmarkus, how is a Soviet 1941 general supposed to play?

If the AI has pulled back behind the Dnepr and is holding on doggedly to Kiev, all of this perfectly corresponds to their 1941 midsummer strategy. The Germans didn't pull off any major pockets in the south (the Uman pocket barely counts) until they bagged Kiev proper, and they had to do this using two panzer groups from different Army Groups.

I think you are drawing some premature conclusions here and have some expectation that the Red Army should stand and die out in the open regardless of actual terrain features and objectives.


_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 35
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 3:52:39 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		In WITE a lot of things are done differently to other "benchmark" games. The game mechanics force players and the AI to use denfensive techniques that are very different to any other game. Many testers will testify that using the techniques that work well in TOAW will be totally disastrous in WITE.

WITE is going to show you many new and different things that it may take time to adjust to, but by no stretch of the imagination does it make the game "some kind of HOI WW2 fantasy game".

_____________________________

It's only a Game


(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 36
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 4:15:05 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline 		Actually, I am quite surprised by this response - how would I expect a Soviet 1941 general to play?  Um, kind of like a 1941 Soviet general, I guess :)

As I recall (the books are upstairs) in the South during June/July 1941 the Soviets stood and fought a series of important battles before pulling back behind the Dnepr - at Kishinev and Zhitomir, as well as major tank counter attacks near Rovno, before fighting for Kiev itself.

The AI is doing the smart thing and pulling back behind the river, but that's NOT what the Soviets did in actuality.  OK, so maybe the game is going to teach me a few things I didn't know about how a game AI would have fought WW2.  But is it going to teach me anything about history?

I'm really starting to worry now.  Have I paid for what I thought I was buying?  I was expecting WiTP AE (greatest war game ever built IMO) for the Eastern Front.  This seems to be something else...


_____________________________

WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 37
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 4:29:43 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Stop worrying, keep playing - survive the Blizzard and I can assure you you will learn something of what your historical counterparts had to suffer. And then you will learn what an achievement it was to undertake the 1942 campaign in the way they did.

Plenty more to discover.

_____________________________

It's only a Game


(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 38
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 4:29:52 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline 		So it looks like the AI has been monitoring my Forum posts. First it went away and when I complained, it came back on the next turn! this isn't just a recon issue as I had conducted extensive recon last turn and the returning units are adjacent to some of mine that have not moved...






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 39
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 4:39:16 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		My guess is that a lot of the units are the ones you pocketed on turns 2 and 3 that have been resurrected. GAIA doesn't rest and refit them like she should, so a lot of them are "paper tigers" designed to scare you.

This may be something that needs to be looked at - to force her to build units up to a certain strength before putting them into the combat zone.

_____________________________

It's only a Game


(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 40
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 4:40:52 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Redmarkus, Potapov's 5. Army did fight a long delaying action south of the Pripyet and retreated slowly towards the Dnepr (AGS couldn't pocket it thanks to having a secure flank along the swamps) but further south they fell back towards the Dnepr much more quickly. Only by Uman did they manage to form a pocket and bag the Soviets west of the Dnepr. (And of course the Romanians laid seige to Odessa until October.)

At any rate, GAIA responded to your advance. It is also already working on its Dnepr defense.

The Soviets have a lot of rail and can rapidly redeploy forces.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 41
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 4:42:27 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Redmarkus4,

Keep playing , I think you will not be disappointed.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 42
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 4:51:26 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline 		I am - don't worry!

Turn 8 and I have decided to turn FoW off and play this as a test. The AI's defence lines are still strangely arrayed. In front of Smolensk there's a mass of units around Vitebsk and Smolensk itself, but only a thin screen on the Mogilev front. Displacements down South are also a bit strange - is the AI advancing again? It's certainly not using the river line yet.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 43
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 5:00:39 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		It has units digging on the river. It takes several turns to fortify.

As for the weak spot near the Mogeilev-Gomel area...well, that's where Guderian marched south to help bag Kiev.

Honestly, the front line to me in your game seems remarkably historical for the time period. Not sure what's the issue here.



_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 44
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 5:22:33 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline 		Guderian turned south AFTER the battle of Smolensk which lasted 6 weeks, and included a major Soviet counter offensive.  He didn't march south because Timoshenko couldn't arrange a defence line.  Seriously, if you look at that screenie and don't see an issue, then I am wasting my time posting.  But I'm just a customer...  END  I'm done here :(

_____________________________

WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 45
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 5:29:23 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		When Guderian marched south, he struck precisely along this weak spot which was weak because the Soviets had massed most of their forces further north near Smolensk.

You could, in the alternative, strike here and turn north to flank the defenders west of Smolensk. Or even put both panzer groups 2 and 3 here, send Hoth north to deal with Smolensk and Guderian south towards Kiev. You've got options here.









_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 46
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 5:33:27 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Where GAIA "sees" panzers she builds defence in depth. Where she doesn't she put's screening forces. If you can't get across the river and through the line where she is screening, then she is doing her job. If you can exploit what you perceive as the weakness, then fair enough.

I understand that what you are seeing is different to anything you have seen before, but I need help understanding why you think what the AI is doing is a game breaker.

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 12/12/2010 5:34:41 PM >

_____________________________

It's only a Game


(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 47
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 5:40:15 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Redmarkus4,

You've convinced yourself there is a problem - I think at this point you will have to unconvince yourself by playing. We've all played the game much more than you have at this point. Give us some benefit of the doubt and give it a chance. The AI is not static, where you push, it will counter.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 48
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 5:42:51 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline 		Hi.  It's not a 'game' breaker and I haven't used that phrase.  This is a great game if your expectations are set right.  No sarcasm here - I am still playing.

It would be an 'accurate historical simulation of WW2 in Russia' breaker.  The same would be true in WiTP AE if the Allied AI abandoned Hawaii and moved its defence to the US West coast.  But WiTP is an excellent historical simulation, so that doesn't happen.

My hope is that WiTE will evolve to be the same and all of my comments are intended to highlight the issues I see.  But I am just one player...


_____________________________

WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 49
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 5:43:53 PM   
hgilmer3


Posts: 530
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: offline 		If it plays historically accurate to every extent, then you know the outcome already, down to the last man, tank, and plane lost.

This gives you a chance to fight against what theoretically they should have done.  It's the best against the best!


_____________________________

KurtC in the WITE PBEM module.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 50
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 5:58:32 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
It would be an 'accurate historical simulation of WW2 in Russia' breaker.  The same would be true in WiTP AE if the Allied AI abandoned Hawaii and moved its defence to the US West coast.  But WiTP is an excellent historical simulation, so that doesn't happen.


I disagree with your analogy here. This is more like the WITP AI deciding not to pour reinforcements into Singapore or the Philippines.

You can absolutely create the historical pockets as the German player and the Soviet movement, leadership and morale issues make those pockets much easier to create in 1941 than later in the war. If they are reacting and escaping too many of your pockets, you need more practice forming them. They may escape a few, but not the majority in 1941 if you practice. You should see what some of the testers can do.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 51
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 6:11:57 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline 		So, I shifted my attack to the weak points and within 1 turn the Soviets have managed to shift half of the Red Army to block the gaps. I realise now that the AI is designed to immediately block any serious push by sending its resources across the map to meet the Panzers, wherever they appear. Is that right? It's kind of like playing chess with balloons... :)

Summarizing the points above, if I have understood them:

1. Forget what I have seen in all of the old board and computer war games in the past - this particular war in Russia is different.
2. This is a game, not a simulation like Fire in the East or Russo German War.
3. If it was 'historically accurate', what would be the point? I would know the outcome.
4. Because I haven't played the game for long, my 40 years of playing other serious WW2 strategy games is not a basis for spotting issues in this one.

Obviously, after the wait and the hype, and with the relatively high price (which I supported) I am pretty disappointed, but most of my frustration comes from the fact that I seem to be talking a different language to the one spoken here. I don't get the sense that anything I have reported is seen to be an issue that requires fixing - it's all "just the way the game is designed to work".

I don't mean to offend. I just wanted a good war game that would allow me to recreate FiTE and similar experiences on my PC. It's over to PBEM for me now, to see how that goes. The map, units, logistics and OOB, etc. are wonderful, so PBEM should be great. The AI is my only complaint.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 12/12/2010 6:15:26 PM >

_____________________________

WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to hgilmer3)
Post #: 52
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 6:15:07 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline 		Hi Erik,

I am sure that the testers can beat the game system and that I will too if I play long enough.

But what I want is to re-play WW2 :)

Cheers,

Mark

_____________________________

WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 53
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 6:15:45 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
So, I shifted my attack to the weak points and within 1 week the Soviets have managed to shift half of the Red Army to block the gaps. I realise now that the AI is designed to immediately block any serious push by sending its resources across the map to meet the Panzers, wherever they appear. Is that right? It's kind of like playing chess with balloons... :)


Should the AI not be allowed to move its units or use the historical Soviet rail capacity to respond to attacks? The Soviets made us of it.

quote:


Summarizing the points above, if I have understood them:
1. Forget what I have seen in all of the old board and computer war games in the past - this particular war in Russia is different.
2. This is a game, not a simulation like Fire in the East or Russo German War.
3. If it was 'historically accurate', what would be the point? I would know the outcome.
4. Because I haven't played the game for long, my 40 years of playing other serious WW2 strategy games is not a basis for spotting issues in this one.


These seem to be your points rather than ours. In our opinion, it is historically accurate. No one is disregarding your experience as a wargamer, but it seems fair to play more than a few turns in before coming to conclusions regarding a game or AI design.

quote:

Obviously, after the wait and the hype, and with the relatively high price (which I supported) I am pretty disappointed, but most of my frustration comes from the fact that I seem to be talking a different language to the one spoken here. I don't get the sense that anything I have reported is seen to be an issue that requires fixing - it's all "just the way the game is designed to work".


The basic difference between us seems to be that you are convinced the historical Soviet army could not do what the AI is doing, is that correct?

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 54
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 6:20:09 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline 		Yes to point 3, above.  I would suggest that in August 1941 the Soviets were barely able to organize a static line along most of their front.  They were digging anti-tank ditches in front of Moscow and their concentrations around Kiev were about to be encircled by a 600 mile drive south led by Guderian - because they could not react fast enough to avoid this.

The AI (it's very clever code) is way too smart.  Maybe by 1944 it could be doing what it's doing, but no way at this early stage of the war, IMO.


< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 12/12/2010 6:22:18 PM >

_____________________________

WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 55
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 6:27:21 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		This is going to be one of these agree to disagree situations, I fear.

The Soviets, for all their problems, where able to mount a very nasty counteroffensive as early as August near the Smolensk area that caused real difficulties for the Germans. It indeed encouraged them to put AGC on hold for a few months and send off panzer groups 2 and 3 elsewhere for a while in search of easier targets. (A controversial decision to this day for those who think they should have continued pressing towards Moscow, but that's another subject.)

And while AGC pulled off some very impressive pockets early on, AGS signally failed to do so and ultimately had to be assisted by Guderian to destroy Southwestern Front. SW Front did a very respectable job defending in the south and maintaining its forces in being. It didn't just sit there and allowed itself to be pocketed.

So I just do not agree with this idea that the Soviets should be completely hapless and utterly at the German mercy for the whole of 1941.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 56
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 8:13:40 PM   
henri51


Posts: 1151
Joined: 1/16/2009
Status: offline 		REdmarkus, much of your argument assumes that EVERYTHING that happened in 1941 was inevitable and hardcoded in advance; it was not. Many think that Hitler made a mistake in delaying the attack on Moscow and diverting those forces to pocket Kiev, but there is no way that this HAD to happen. The same goes for many other situations in WW2, for example the decision to split the forces headed for Stalingrad to bag both Stalingrad and the Caucasus oil fields (neither of which was accomplished). The same goes for STalin's decision to not reinforce the border with Germany and his orders not to retreat, as well as the 1938 military purges, and so on and so on. Do you really believe that all those events were inevitable?

Assuming that this game is an accurate simulation (and I don't believe that there is any such thing), it would not be accurate if it exactly followed the way things actually went - then it would be a movie, not a simulation.

Personally I think that a game that would not allow "what-ifs" would be a lot less interesting. And I may add that a game that would have the Red Army of 1941 led by military geniuses would be a travesty of History.Sure there were the Zhukovs and Rokosovskys, but due to the purges most Red Army officers were inexperienced and therefore incompetent, not to mention hampered by even more incompetent party commissars.

Henri

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 57
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 9:07:21 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
Yes to point 3, above.  I would suggest that in August 1941 the Soviets were barely able to organize a static line along most of their front.  They were digging anti-tank ditches in front of Moscow and their concentrations around Kiev were about to be encircled by a 600 mile drive south led by Guderian - because they could not react fast enough to avoid this.

The AI (it's very clever code) is way too smart.  Maybe by 1944 it could be doing what it's doing, but no way at this early stage of the war, IMO.


Ok, we will have to agree to disagree on that.

With that said, as you get more practice you will likely be able to beat the AI up badly enough on Normal to make it struggle to organize a static line.

Between the various AI settings and the editor, you can likely also tailor the play experience to match your expectations. Joel and the test team could probably offer better advice on the right settings than I could, but it shouldn't be too hard to cripple the Soviets a bit in 1941 and have them rebound in 1942, the tough part will be to balance it against your skill with the game (which will change over time) so that you still have a tough fight in the latter parts of 1941.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 58
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 9:19:39 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		If you do "ss" with the "e" hot key we can see your advancements better. Have you done air recon also?

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 59
RE: Like the AI, but need some advice - 12/12/2010 9:26:40 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

If you do "ss" with the "e" hot key we can see your advancements better. Have you done air recon also?


Hi PyleDriver. Not sure exactly what you mean regarding ss?

Yes, I do air recon at the start of every turn.

I am now playing a multiplayer game, so hopefully will get more enjoyment out of that.

_____________________________

WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

4.578