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What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 2:22:57 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Status: offline 		I am interested to hear what PBEM and Multi-player House Rules people would suggest. Maybe we can create a short Master List of house rules for players who want things to be somewhat realistic (if not actually 'historical').

To give you a few examples, I will start off with:

HOUSE RULES for WiTE PBEM

#1. Between Turns 1 and 2 all Soviet formations (except Cossack and Elite armour) are too shocked to try to cut off Axis panzer spearheads. After turn 2, anything goes.

#2. Airborne units should never be used to assault a major urban area unless they have been reached by ground forces - they would lack the capacity in reality.

#4. No Soviet amphibious invasions before Spring 1942 and then only along the original June '41 Soviet coastlines.

#5. No Soviet amphibious invasions on the Rumanian coast before Spring 1944, unless Odessa has been recaptured by the Soviet player.

Any other ideas?

< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 12/13/2010 5:06:19 PM >

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 2:27:06 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		I don't like any of those. Many of these are quite ahistorical, btw.



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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 2:30:16 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Status: offline 		Well, do you have any alternatives to suggest?

"I am interested to hear what PBEM and Multi-player House Rules people would suggest."

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 2:30:43 PM   
paullus99


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Status: offline 		You're basically giving the Panzers four free turns of movement - that's not good. I wouldn't even think about accepting that as a Russian player.

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 2:33:26 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Status: offline 		Gents, I asked for suggestions. I haven't "given" anyone anything - it's a discussion. I listed some ideas as examples.

Do you have some suggestions of your own that we can discuss? Or do you object to having any House Rules for PBEM?

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 2:38:30 PM   
karonagames


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Status: offline 		There is the potential for "Cheesy" amphibious invasions so I would agree with most of those.

The game already prevents units <25% from being combat effective, as they will probably be in "unready" state, so additional rules are not necessary. Players may have to put unready units in the line in dire emergencies, but they rout when attacked.

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 2:51:44 PM   
76mm


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Status: offline 		I haven't played any PBEM games yet, but given the massive scope and complexity of the game, I would be disinclined to use any house rules which make things even more complicated...

For example, I just don't see German amphibious landings as being that big of a threat...

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 2:52:03 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Status: offline 		To Anorak - Thanks - makes sense to me :)

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 2:54:00 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Status: offline 		Hi. If you play WiTP AE PBEM most players will send you a much longer list of House Rules. WiTP is at least as complex, probably more complex.

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 2:56:59 PM   
karonagames


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Status: offline 		There might need to be discussion about the 7th Flieger(airborne) division too. I captured Rostov with it and everyone told me it was cheesy.

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 3:00:14 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Status: offline 		Hmmm... not so convinced myself. the decision not to use airborne or air landing units after the losses in Crete was optional and could have been changed at any time. If you can fly them in, supply them and relieve them, why shouldn't you use them?

I would draw the line at suicide missions to capture Moscow etc. It's got to make 'historical' sense ;)

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 3:02:04 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Status: offline 		Or maybe airborne units should never be used to assault a major urban area? Bridges and rail junctions are their main objective anyway...

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 3:05:14 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

There might need to be discussion about the 7th Flieger(airborne) division too. I captured Rostov with it and everyone told me it was cheesy.


It was, but I still wouldn't insist on a house rule.

Frankly, Rostov should have had a garrison. By that point in the game I have divisions digging in on any city within 100 miles of the front.

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 3:11:02 PM   
Great_Ajax


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Status: offline 		That drop wasn't even a big deal. It got scattered within a few turns so it wasn't that big of a threat anyways.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

There might need to be discussion about the 7th Flieger(airborne) division too. I captured Rostov with it and everyone told me it was cheesy.


It was, but I still wouldn't insist on a house rule.

Frankly, Rostov should have had a garrison. By that point in the game I have divisions digging in on any city within 100 miles of the front.



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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 3:11:27 PM   
karonagames


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Status: offline 		I think time will tell whether House rules are needed. I know Andy (Sabre21)tried to "Break" the game doing lots of cheesy stuff like Bombing Ploesti(sp?) on every turn with the long range bombers, for example, but I don't think the game broke, and he lost a ton of bombers.

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 3:12:22 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
Hi. If you play WiTP AE PBEM most players will send you a much longer list of House Rules. WiTP is at least as complex, probably more complex.


Yikes...

Note to self: don't play WiTP PBEM...

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 3:14:21 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
Hi. If you play WiTP AE PBEM most players will send you a much longer list of House Rules. WiTP is at least as complex, probably more complex.


Yikes...

Note to self: don't play WiTP PBEM...



Don't play PBEM with players who want to redesign the game.

For myself, I am perfectly happy to play this game as is with no rules changes.

If one side or another feels it needs a handicap, then use the actual tools the game provides to handicap them. These are plenty strong.

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 3:28:33 PM   
PyleDriver


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Status: offline 		No house rules are needed. We already have a nearly 400 page rulebook, read it and live by it.

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 3:29:46 PM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
#1. Between Turns 1 and 4 all Soviet formations (except Cossack and Elite armour) are too shocked to try to cut off Axis panzer spearheads. After turn 4, anything goes.


I am not sure what do you mean by "too shocked to try cut off Axis panzer spearheads".

Do you mean that the SU player can't maneuver to escape (potential) encirclement? I see a problem with both players agreeing at an exact and fair definition for "potential encirclement".

If you mean that attacks aren't allowed, well, if I were playing the Axis I would love to see those counterattacks coming my way. It's much easier to rout the disorganized, demoralized and undersupplied Red Army forces in the open than having to dislodge them from fortified positions (which isn't that hard either).

My opinion - and I am just an amateur not a military historian specialized on the Eastern Front - is that the big encirclements achieved by the Axis during the war had its cause, more than in orders coming down from the Kremlin, in one (or more) of the following:

* Careless deployment. Modeled by the at-start deployments in the scenarios and the fact that any player can make a mistake deploying his units.
* The Wehrmacht had practical knowledge of mobile warfare (Fall Weiss, Fall Gelb, Balkans) and there was the will (sometimes with scarce means) to implement it. Meanwhile the Red Army only had the theories developed during the early 30s and abandoned after the purges, the very limited experience of the Spanish Civil War and the victories over the Japanese at Khalkin Gol. I consider this aspect to be mostly modeled by experience, morale and leader ratings.
* The fact that if you have the initiative you choose the schwerpunkt, not the defender. And you just can't plan for anything a crafty and creative player can devise.

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 3:32:43 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

No house rules are needed. We already have a nearly 400 page rulebook, read it and live by it.


That's kind of what I was thinking. At least in the campaign games, I would think that most gamey tactics would be pretty much irrelevant in the big scheme of things, and that the campaign will be won by the person with the better tactics and--probably more important--better understanding of the rules.

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 3:36:14 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		I would be less happy with starting a PBEM game without some house rules or at least appeals to common sense, as there are a number of things that can be exploited.

1) You can't place more than a certain number of squadrons, as agreed to by the players, in the national reserve for more than 1 turn. You can essentially remove your air force from the map, so some measures should be taken to prevent gamey abuse of that.

2) No farming of AP's through placing a unit on static, having the enemy bump it out of a hex, and placing it on static again. The rule would be along the lines that units can only be placed on static in actual quiet sectors or areas where you're constructing forts.

3) You can't place more than a certain number of units, as agreed to by the players, on refit. How anyone can claim placing the entire Soviet army on refit is not gamey is still beyond me.

One other problem with the game is that leaders can't increase their skills past 6, so that the best leaders have their skills set to them at the start of the game. This means that Axis and Soviet leaders that started the campaign with (extremely) limited experience but turned out to be great leaders will be significantly overrated at the start of the campaign. The Axis have a whole bunch of great leaders, not all of whom actually did something that would warrant such high figures at the start of Barbarossa.

Likewise, the Soviets have great mechanized leaders for their future Tank armies, even though the majority of them had at best theoretical experience with modern mobile warfare, considering the limited amount of large scale mobile operations the Soviets participated in prior to Barbarossa (essentially only the battles against the Japanese, Poles, and the Finns, and some experience from the Spanish civil war, and none of those with commands on the scale of the later Tank armies).

A debate about Soviet leader quality on the tester forum ended with me being told I was reading the wrong books and the impression that a number of Soviet mechanized leaders are underrated, rather than overrated, so that kind of killed the debate.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 12/13/2010 3:46:51 PM >

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 3:44:52 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Status: offline 		Interesting comments. Let's wait to see what the buying public think after they have tried the Campaign. Those that visit the forums, anyway...

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 3:53:07 PM   
76mm


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Status: offline 		Yes, interesting...the actions that ComradeP describes certainly sound gamey.

In most games I would just play the game without worrying much about a gamey opponent, and simply try not to play that opponent again...but with WitE I would hate to get 6 months into a campaign and realize that my opponent is using all of these gamey tactics and more...

That said, the thought of using pencil and paper to track how many units I've got in "refit", or worrying about whether I can properly put a unit in "static" status under house rules, is also a huge turn off...

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 3:56:53 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Status: offline 		Once I find an honourable opponent (I know a few) I stick with them for games like WiTP and WiTE. Nothing worse than investing 6 months in WiTP and then seeing that a whole Japanese army has just seized Panama (to prevent your fleet from moving through and is making its way up the East coast to NYC on a pile of AKLs and Sub chasers. LOL

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 4:24:00 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

In most games I would just play the game without worrying much about a gamey opponent, and simply try not to play that opponent again...but with WitE I would hate to get 6 months into a campaign and realize that my opponent is using all of these gamey tactics and more...

That said, the thought of using pencil and paper to track how many units I've got in "refit", or worrying about whether I can properly put a unit in "static" status under house rules, is also a huge turn off...


Most monster games need house rules of some sort due to their scale and the fact that there will always be some problems that can't really be ironed out.

In WitP:AE's case, for example, there are often houserules for only one port strike and only moving existing fleets on turn 1, as well as houserules for "buying" units crossing national borders or from the Kwantung Army.

I guess that a similar houserule could be implented for WitE, where you need to pay AP's to attach units to a certain front or army group (or its lower formations) instead of having units of a different front of army group operate in the area of a certain front or army group.

I agree that manually keeping track of refitting units would in some cases be tedious, but developing a feel for it should not be too tricky as when you really want units to refit, there's only so many units you can place on refit without either completely draining the pool for the normal replacement phase or your supposedly refitting units getting minimal replacements because too many are set on refit compared to the number of replacements you get.

The refit issue is mostly problematic in 1941 for the Soviets, as it's plain and simple ahistorical morale padding. You're not using the refit setting to actually refit units (placing your entire army on refit means your units won't be getting many replacements, after all), you're using it to artificially give units a higher morale.

The static unit issue is a form of AP padding that can unbalance the game, again especially when a Soviet player does it as it will speed up corps and unit creation. I don't really place units on static unless they're in urban areas (I usually either intend to let them die in place or intend to rail them out. I also place part of the anti-partisan garrison on static normally if there's more than 1 unit in a city). Placing your units on static in the open just to get more AP's should be frowned upon.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 12/13/2010 4:26:49 PM >

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 4:54:52 PM   
Joel Billings


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Status: offline 		FYI, the only amphibious capacity in the game is Soviet and in the south. There is no German amphibious capability, and no Soviet capability in the Baltic.

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 5:07:20 PM   
Redmarkus5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

FYI, the only amphibious capacity in the game is Soviet and in the south. There is no German amphibious capability, and no Soviet capability in the Baltic.


Aha - thanks. Edited the list.

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 5:12:29 PM   
Joel Billings


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Status: offline 		One house rule that a tester proposed was that only Rumanian units can attack Odessa (and perhaps within 3 hexes or so of the city).

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 5:19:49 PM   
FM WarB

 

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Status: offline 		If an aspect of gameplay requires a "Gentleman's Rule" to fix it, why not request it be fixed in an official update?

The less Gentleman's rules, the better the game.

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RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? - 12/13/2010 5:39:09 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		The problem with the national reserve for air units, is that it's also the thing you use to move air units between bases, so in order for the national reserve issue to be "fixed" air units would have to be able to move between bases in a convenient way.

The problem with refitting is that it would be tricky to try and establish a maximum amount of units that can be placed on refit, as the effectiveness of refit varies per year. and the Soviets can generally place more units on refit than the Axis (that is: the Soviets get more replacements, so they can place more units on refit for the distribution of those replacements).

One suggestion for the static issue thus far has been to prevent units from being able to switch to static mode unless they're in at least level 2 forts.

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