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RE: high supply - 12/24/2010 7:28:11 PM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ?


Maybe the HQ lacked the requisite form.



Accursed bureaucrats.

_____________________________


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Post #: 31
RE: high supply - 12/24/2010 8:09:13 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ?


Maybe the HQ lacked the requisite form.



Accursed bureaucrats.



I personally authorized them to receive 100% of available supply, and the quartermaster assured me that they could deliver 1.5 x that ! Heads will roll !!

(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 32
RE: high supply - 12/24/2010 11:31:35 PM   
ColinWright

 

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Status: offline 		Merry Christmas, everybody.

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Post #: 33
RE: high supply - 12/25/2010 4:25:50 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

Yes, it's doing it's job until it gets to that last hex at the arrow head. If the supply is extended by one radius, 4 movement points, should that last hex also be 40? On the other hand, if it's counted from that last hex, where the arrow head is, back to the supply unit, it's 3 movement points. That last hex is the reason for the screen shot. That is the hex that I thought should be displayed as full supply but isn't. What am I missing?


The railhead is one hex SE of Skaudvile, right? The hex in question is 5 MPs from that location. So, if you deduct 4 MPs, that still leaves it 1 MP from the railhead. That gives it a value of 34, not 40.

(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 34
RE: high supply - 12/25/2010 4:29:17 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ?


I've tested this in the past and I found there was a max limit of 50 supply a unit could gain in any given supply phase, regardless of any calculated figure.

And if you want to know why, ask Norm.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 12/25/2010 4:31:18 AM >

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Post #: 35
RE: high supply - 12/25/2010 5:42:01 AM   
Silvanski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

As Silvanski pointed out, there's no discernible effect other than HQ-like 50% boost (for adjacent cooperating units) of using supply units.


Silvanski was mistaken. The boost is visible on the map display.

Thanks for clearing this up.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 36
RE: high supply - 12/25/2010 6:42:04 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ?


I've tested this in the past and I found there was a max limit of 50 supply a unit could gain in any given supply phase, regardless of any calculated figure.

And if you want to know why, ask Norm.


50 per turn is great, but in a few cases I was trying to get more for a few turns and couldn't, so knowing it is Norms fault makes it ok. Thanks very much.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 37
RE: high supply - 12/25/2010 3:17:35 PM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

Yes, it's doing it's job until it gets to that last hex at the arrow head. If the supply is extended by one radius, 4 movement points, should that last hex also be 40? On the other hand, if it's counted from that last hex, where the arrow head is, back to the supply unit, it's 3 movement points. That last hex is the reason for the screen shot. That is the hex that I thought should be displayed as full supply but isn't. What am I missing?


The railhead is one hex SE of Skaudvile, right? The hex in question is 5 MPs from that location. So, if you deduct 4 MPs, that still leaves it 1 MP from the railhead. That gives it a value of 34, not 40.


Ah, I see. I misunderstood what the supply unit represented. I took it to mean the supply unit acted as a mobile railhead so long as it was within one supply radius of the actual railhead. In fact, it is a distance reduction device so long as a unit is within one supply radius of the mobile supply unit, merely subtracting one supply radius from the real distance of a unit from the railhead.

Thank you for helping me clear up that point.

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Post #: 38
RE: high supply - 12/25/2010 5:03:04 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

Ah, I see. I misunderstood what the supply unit represented. I took it to mean the supply unit acted as a mobile railhead so long as it was within one supply radius of the actual railhead. In fact, it is a distance reduction device so long as a unit is within one supply radius of the mobile supply unit, merely subtracting one supply radius from the real distance of a unit from the railhead.


Exactly. Think of the SU as a concentration of discretionary supply transport (basically, a lot of trucks). Enough to shift the supplies one radius closer to their destination than they would be without the SU.

That's why I favor an enhancement that would make the SU's function proportionate to the fraction of authorized transport it contains. So, for example, if it only had half its authorized trucks, it would only shift half a supply radius, etc. Then you could strafe an SU and expect the enemy's supplies to drop.

(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 39
RE: high supply - 12/25/2010 5:07:07 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

50 per turn is great, but in a few cases I was trying to get more for a few turns and couldn't, so knowing it is Norms fault makes it ok. Thanks very much.


While it is as Norm no doubt intended it, that doesn't mean we can't hope for it to be changed. I can't really justify it. I think Norm just didn't like units recovering supply too fast. But why can't they?

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 40
RE: high supply - 12/25/2010 7:20:08 PM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

50 per turn is great, but in a few cases I was trying to get more for a few turns and couldn't, so knowing it is Norms fault makes it ok. Thanks very much.


While it is as Norm no doubt intended it, that doesn't mean we can't hope for it to be changed. I can't really justify it. I think Norm just didn't like units recovering supply too fast. But why can't they?


One word. Isandlwana. A unit can be sitting on a supply depot and still not get enhanced supply simply because it was not officially approved conduct.

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Post #: 41
RE: high supply - 12/25/2010 11:22:11 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

50 per turn is great, but in a few cases I was trying to get more for a few turns and couldn't, so knowing it is Norms fault makes it ok. Thanks very much.


While it is as Norm no doubt intended it, that doesn't mean we can't hope for it to be changed. I can't really justify it. I think Norm just didn't like units recovering supply too fast. But why can't they?


I suppose one could argue it can only be passed out so fast. It doesn't matter how many cases of 7.92 ammunition there are two km back -- it can only be run up to the front so quickly.

Freakish results? Give the Dutch Army a high enough supply rate and it can overrun Germany?

There's probably no reason you can't make it possible though -- although you might want to run a few checks to see if there was something Norm found out the hard way.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 42
RE: high supply - 12/26/2010 12:13:15 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

50 per turn is great, but in a few cases I was trying to get more for a few turns and couldn't, so knowing it is Norms fault makes it ok. Thanks very much.


While it is as Norm no doubt intended it, that doesn't mean we can't hope for it to be changed. I can't really justify it. I think Norm just didn't like units recovering supply too fast. But why can't they?


quote:

I suppose one could argue it can only be passed out so fast.


Yes, arguements for both views. Overall, the designer can design. The two cases I was working on were Goodwood and Market-Garden, where the British had strong artillery for the initial bombardments. Playing the scenarios, all the artillery is down to the 1% level after a few rounds, and the following turn start at 50%. Still strong, but I was trying for very strong.

I did read a blurp about the difficulty in moving all those 25 pounder shells from the dumps to the guns for Goodwood, and the fact that the advancing units outran the range of the artillery. So I put the artillery units in garrison, and on tactical support, on a rail hex, adjacent to a supply unit, but then they all jumped in on the disengagement attacks and went down to 1% anyway.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 43
RE: high supply - 12/26/2010 1:02:55 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

50 per turn is great, but in a few cases I was trying to get more for a few turns and couldn't, so knowing it is Norms fault makes it ok. Thanks very much.


While it is as Norm no doubt intended it, that doesn't mean we can't hope for it to be changed. I can't really justify it. I think Norm just didn't like units recovering supply too fast. But why can't they?


One word. Isandlwana. A unit can be sitting on a supply depot and still not get enhanced supply simply because it was not officially approved conduct.


Norm actually referenced Isandlwana in the manual:

Consider the story of the quartermaster at Isandlwana (1879). As
legend has it, the British troops had plenty of ammunition available,
but the quartermaster refused to distribute it more rapidly
than the official rate of replacement for British troops in the field.
Good Force Supply Stockpile. poor Formation Supply Distribution
Efficiency. Initially, good Unit Supply levels.

As you can see, it's accounted for by "poor Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency". That's more than sufficient to account for that quartermaster.

A blanket limit, however, imposes him on every force in history.

(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 44
RE: high supply - 12/26/2010 4:32:15 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Unrelated and probably not worthy of its own thread, 'high supply' doesn't work anymore? I tried a couple old COW scenarios and switching 'high' on/off didn't change anything. Let several turns run, and closed and restarted, but still the supply level stayed the same.


Took me a while to figure this one out, since I've never used High Supply and wasn't familiar with just what it did. But, I can now say that it is working correctly. It doesn't change the FSL or on-map supply values. Rather, it adds a 1.5 factor to the supply equation. So, given the same on-map supply value, a unit will get 1.5 times as much supply with it on as without.

To see this, run Arracourt with High Supply off. Without moving the Germans, cycle through to the second game turn. Note that German units have increased their unit supply from 60 to 64. Now do the same test with High Supply on. You'll find that the German units have increased their supply from 60 to 66 instead. They've received 50% more supply (6 instead of 4). Their FSL remains at 15 in both cases, as do on-map supply values.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 45
RE: high supply - 12/26/2010 5:39:42 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Unrelated and probably not worthy of its own thread, 'high supply' doesn't work anymore? I tried a couple old COW scenarios and switching 'high' on/off didn't change anything. Let several turns run, and closed and restarted, but still the supply level stayed the same.


Took me a while to figure this one out, since I've never used High Supply and wasn't familiar with just what it did. But, I can now say that it is working correctly. It doesn't change the FSL or on-map supply values. Rather, it adds a 1.5 factor to the supply equation. So, given the same on-map supply value, a unit will get 1.5 times as much supply with it on as without.

To see this, run Arracourt with High Supply off. Without moving the Germans, cycle through to the second game turn. Note that German units have increased their unit supply from 60 to 64. Now do the same test with High Supply on. You'll find that the German units have increased their supply from 60 to 66 instead. They've received 50% more supply (6 instead of 4). Their FSL remains at 15 in both cases, as do on-map supply values.


Good grief, my tests were while playing, so I was monitoring the on map display and the situation briefings. As you discovered, it doesn't show up there. I re-ran without moving and sure enough, +50% over the actual/displayed. I'll add this to my rewrite of the manual !!

Never used high supply ? Well, it helps with some of those low supply scenarios. But an increase from 4 to 6, not much help. And I assume that playing some of the COW scenarios with the new supply rules on might require ticking the high supply option.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 46
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