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Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 7:26:04 AM   
Simulation01


Posts: 540
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline 		I think we need a way to claim a planet without actually colonizing it. A warship should be able to create an outpost on any planet ( and type ) to claim it. They would use resources to maintain like a spacestation or something so you wouldn't want to build them everywhere, but it would allow you to lay claim to a planet before colonization and would prevent colonization by another empire.

Maybe....the way another empire could get around this is if they sent a colony ship that also had a troop transport module that had troops with it to take out the host outpost. I obviously want this, but what does everyone else think?

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 8:09:04 AM   
forsaken1111

 

Posts: 281
Joined: 3/30/2010
Status: offline 		I like this idea, establishing a presence and staking a claim without wanting a full colony. Maybe something as simple as having a troop transport 'invade' an empty planet dropping off troops there and creating the outpost.

It would count as owned by your empire but should be treated the same as a mining station as far as encroaching on other empire's territory, but would prevent the enemy from colonizing without them first invading to take the outpost.

It does make sense. Say you discover the Loros Fruit but you cannot colonize that planet type yet. It makes total sense to land a military contingent to hold the valuable resource, even if you cannot yet establish a broad civilian infrastructure and colony.

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 8:26:21 AM   
Setekh


Posts: 178
Joined: 12/12/2010
From: Norfolk, England
Status: offline 		I like the idea of being able to 'plant a flag' before being able to colonise.

+1 for this idea.


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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 8:31:53 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		You can already do something like this. Build a Monitoring station there so you can see what's coming, and keep a few military ships patroling and use them to shoot up any incoming colonization ships (or even explorers). The AI won't like it, and you'll get a reputation hit, but it probably won't start a war, at least for a while. But allowing groups to plop down a few troops to "claim" a potential colony would potentially be a nightmare. Even assuming you could code it, I could see the AI gobbling up the whole map this way. And if they are coded passively, then the human player will use it as an exploit. Either way, no fun.

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 8:42:48 AM   
forsaken1111

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

You can already do something like this. Build a Monitoring station there so you can see what's coming, and keep a few military ships patroling and use them to shoot up any incoming colonization ships (or even explorers). The AI won't like it, and you'll get a reputation hit, but it probably won't start a war, at least for a while. But allowing groups to plop down a few troops to "claim" a potential colony would potentially be a nightmare. Even assuming you could code it, I could see the AI gobbling up the whole map this way. And if they are coded passively, then the human player will use it as an exploit. Either way, no fun.

But all those troops alone on all of those alien worlds would require constant maintenance, much more than a brigade sitting comfy on the homeworld. I think it could easily be balanced, if they don't get their maintenance they begin to lose combat strength until they perish so 'gobbling up the galaxy' with outposts would just make you constantly broke with no troops. I can't speak to how difficult it would be to code, I have no idea how DW's code is organized.

You could also put a hard limit on outposts the same way agents are limited.

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 10:46:32 AM   
WoodMan


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From: Ol' Blighty
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quote:

I could see the AI gobbling up the whole map this way. And if they are coded passively, then the human player will use it as an exploit. Either way, no fun.


I have to agree with this statement here I'm afraid people.  If I could claim all the planets my Explorers found before I colonized them, then in my current game my neighbour would have no colonies

Also, so what if you stick a flag on a planet claiming it, my spaceboot just gonna kick over that flag before I build my house on it

Edit:

Just remembered I did make a territory proposal in another thread somewhere a couple of weeks ago that would allow you to automatically claim planets in your spheres of influence and along your trade lines, requiring others to take reputation hits for tresspassing with state controlled ships (that would include for colonization). That would be better as it doesn't let you scoot all around the galaxy claiming everything, but it prevents AI moving into your backyard without some diplomatic consequences, I'll post the iea again in the main request thread at somepoint.

< Message edited by WoodMan -- 12/20/2010 10:50:39 AM >

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 11:05:08 AM   
ASHBERY76


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
I could see the AI gobbling up the whole map this way. And if they are coded passively, then the human player will use it as an exploit. Either way, no fun.


This.

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 11:33:41 AM   
forsaken1111

 

Posts: 281
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Status: offline 		Did everyone just ignore my post? Such a feature is easy to balance, simply make it cost money. You could do exactly the same thing RIGHT NOW by building armed monitoring stations at every planet, but you don't. Why? It is financially and logistically impossible. Just make an outpost require a few troops and materials + some ongoing maintenance as is realistic, and poof... no sensationalist "AI IS GOBBLIN THE GALAXY"

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 11:58:27 AM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
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From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		I'd rather some kind of territory system myself, where your current colonies and tradelines project an influence over the surrounding areas, crossing these with state controlled ships would cause some decline in relations. 

Not sure if I like the idea of being able to go far beyond my borders with troop transports claiming loads of planets for future expansion, it would expansion very easy in a game most players and I think even the dev like to prgress slowly.

The difference between building stations or guarding planets with ships is its on your head if you want to stop the AI colonizing there, you are the one who has to fire on them, take the rep hit and maybe end up in a war over it.  If you could claim a planet first it makes it on the other guys head, meaning if you were smart about it you could claim way too much preeventing the AI from spreading and taking no diplomatic hit for it.


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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 12:36:57 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		The idea of projecting influence or having "territory" sounds more like Galactic Civ than DW.  I like the mechanics the way they are now.  Just my 2 credits.

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 1:08:11 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
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From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		The thing is at the moment several AI factions are stealing ancient technology and ships from a debris field in a system I consider my own.  I have two colonies in systems either side of it and I have several mining bases in this system itself, and two trade routes running right by it, one of which almost runs through it.

I really do consider it mine, and the aliens are stealing from me.  However, because there is no way to define this system as under my influence, they are free to do so without any consequences.  The only thing I can do to stop them is shoot them, that would lead to my reputation dropping, because others were stealing from me.  If their reputation was dropping because they had military and constructionships in the middle of my Empire stealing valuable ancient tech in the first place I wouldn't mind.


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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 1:29:02 PM   
forsaken1111

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

The thing is at the moment several AI factions are stealing ancient technology and ships from a debris field in a system I consider my own.  I have two colonies in systems either side of it and I have several mining bases in this system itself, and two trade routes running right by it, one of which almost runs through it.

I really do consider it mine, and the aliens are stealing from me.  However, because there is no way to define this system as under my influence, they are free to do so without any consequences.  The only thing I can do to stop them is shoot them, that would lead to my reputation dropping, because others were stealing from me.  If their reputation was dropping because they had military and constructionships in the middle of my Empire stealing valuable ancient tech in the first place I wouldn't mind.

Actually I believe if you park military ships at the debris field then the ships will be yours even if the AI repairs them. I agree that a territory or political border system would be nice.

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 2:57:35 PM   
WoodMan


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quote:

Actually I believe if you park military ships at the debris field then the ships will be yours even if the AI repairs them. I agree that a territory or political border system would be nice.


Me too, not a border that prevents you physically moving ships about, but you might get some -reputation or negative relations with the host nation for trespassing.


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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 2:59:11 PM   
forsaken1111

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

quote:

Actually I believe if you park military ships at the debris field then the ships will be yours even if the AI repairs them. I agree that a territory or political border system would be nice.


Me too, not a border that prevents you physically moving ships about, but you might get some -reputation or negative relations with the host nation for trespassing.


If they implement that they would have to tweak the automation AI for ships so they wouldn't escort them across empire borders.

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 3:08:52 PM   
nammafia

 

Posts: 102
Joined: 3/5/2010
Status: offline 		This is a good idea that will work well with empire border that the dev might include in the future. Outposts also must have a time limit, like a year, because it might not be good if we have a outpost spam.

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 3:15:28 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
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Status: offline 		Why would troops on a planet or moon have any real influence on what is happening in space around them?  Those troops would exert no influence or authority over anything other than the rock they occupy.  IMHO this is not the way to go with the design.

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 5:01:15 PM   
ASHBERY76


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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Why would troops on a planet or moon have any real influence on what is happening in space around them?  Those troops would exert no influence or authority over anything other than the rock they occupy.  IMHO this is not the way to go with the design.


Indeed this is space after all and not a land based game.

I do not think you should claim space loot just because it's in your system,it's a gameplay choice.

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 5:37:28 PM   
thiosk


Posts: 150
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline 		My whole problem with the 4x space style game is the initial phase colony gobbling. I get why its there, it makes it gamey, quickly creates pseudo borders and drives conflict. Adding outposts would only serve to drive conflict. Such creations are preferred by thodr who like neat and tidy borders and want to play the game as an empire management\economic sim rather than a 4x game--such as myself.


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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 8:24:51 PM   
Simulation01


Posts: 540
Joined: 5/12/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111

I like this idea, establishing a presence and staking a claim without wanting a full colony. Maybe something as simple as having a troop transport 'invade' an empty planet dropping off troops there and creating the outpost.

It would count as owned by your empire but should be treated the same as a mining station as far as encroaching on other empire's territory, but would prevent the enemy from colonizing without them first invading to take the outpost.

It does make sense. Say you discover the Loros Fruit but you cannot colonize that planet type yet. It makes total sense to land a military contingent to hold the valuable resource, even if you cannot yet establish a broad civilian infrastructure and colony.



Yes, something like this is exactly what I would like. You also gave us the solution to the AI running around gobbling up planets with outposts.....they would cost money...like everything else....they should also cost more money depending on planet type/colonization ability and distance from your Home World. The farther out you go...the more expensive it will get.....this could be set up so that it becomes exponential. You would go broke indeed if you tried to claim everything! As for coding this...I'm just a beginning programmer... but in my mind I see it something like this:


if (outpostMaintenance > setValue)
createOutpost = "NO"

This is an extremely simple example and would not represent what the real code would look like ( prolly more if's and while and do's ) but it's a general idea.


Or something...the folks at Codeforce and Matrix are smart enough to do this. The real question is which direction they wish to go in. I like Woodman's idea for territory as I've suggested something like it myself, but I also think some sort of outpost system is needed. MOO2 had an outpost system that I liked.


Edit:

What I do not like about the idea of just placing ships around a potential colony and destroying anything that comes nearby...is that this require you to practically stay glued to that area of the screen. I have already tried this and have had planets stolen from me even though I had a mining facility at it and ships around it.

Another solution for this may be to not allow colonization of a planet if another empire has a mining facility there, or there should be some sort of button command for your ships to attack any ship that approaches a planet be they friend or foe...IE a blockade of an unclaimed planet.

< Message edited by Simulation01 -- 12/20/2010 8:28:51 PM >

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 10:20:44 PM   
lancer

 

Posts: 2963
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		G'day,

Not sure about this.

If you look at the history of the age of colonisation here on Earth (European powers spreading throughout the world) there aren't many examples of countries gaining territory without actually colonising it.

Australia is a good example of this. The Dutch and Portuguese planted their flags in the sand over a hundred years before the British arrived.

The British were the first to colonise it and thus gained ownership. The colonisation effort - the First Fleet - was the biggest logistical exercise ever undertaken in its day and very nearly didn't succeed.

Don't want to ram a history lesson down peoples throats here but it highlights a few points that might be relevant to DW.

Ownership of territory goes to those that colonise it, not to those who claim it is in their sphere of influence, got there first, etc.

You want it, you colonise it.

If you missed out and you still want it, then you have to fight for it.

That's how it worked - and continues to work - here on Earth. In the vastly more open geography of space I'd imagine these trends would only be accentuated.

Overall I think that CodeForce have got it about right. Colonisation itself is a big, difficult exercise. It grants ownership.

On the topic of borders consider what borders countries today are able to enforce.

Three miles out to sea off your coastline and the airspace above your land. Certain countries attempt more but they only do so with the threat of force.

Carving out big chunks of space with artificial borders and declaring that everything within is mine is on par with America declaring the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans as government property, subject to taxation and customs control.

Cheers,
Lancer


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Post #: 20
RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 10:32:47 PM   
Simulation01


Posts: 540
Joined: 5/12/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lancer

G'day,

Not sure about this.

If you look at the history of the age of colonisation here on Earth (European powers spreading throughout the world) there aren't many examples of countries gaining territory without actually colonising it.

Australia is a good example of this. The Dutch and Portuguese planted their flags in the sand over a hundred years before the British arrived.

The British were the first to colonise it and thus gained ownership. The colonisation effort - the First Fleet - was the biggest logistical exercise ever undertaken in its day and very nearly didn't succeed.

Don't want to ram a history lesson down peoples throats here but it highlights a few points that might be relevant to DW.

Ownership of territory goes to those that colonise it, not to those who claim it is in their sphere of influence, got there first, etc.

You want it, you colonise it.

If you missed out and you still want it, then you have to fight for it.

That's how it worked - and continues to work - here on Earth. In the vastly more open geography of space I'd imagine these trends would only be accentuated.

Overall I think that CodeForce have got it about right. Colonisation itself is a big, difficult exercise. It grants ownership.

On the topic of borders consider what borders countries today are able to enforce.

Three miles out to sea off your coastline and the airspace above your land. Certain countries attempt more but they only do so with the threat of force.

Carving out big chunks of space with artificial borders and declaring that everything within is mine is on par with America declaring the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans as government property, subject to taxation and customs control.

Cheers,
Lancer





Colonization also occurs in stages. The whole of Australia and America were not colonized at the same time. It happened in stages...usually with a small colonay/outpost that later was expanded on.

_____________________________

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Post #: 21
RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 10:35:56 PM   
elliotg


Posts: 3597
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Status: offline 		Hi all. I tend to agree that some form of territory and borders would help the game, though I don't think 'claiming' planets as described in the post is a good way to do this.

Down the track we'll be looking further at this. I personally would prefer to see some kind of empire territory - I think this would make the game more understandable. Especially late-game the 'borders' can get pretty ragged and ill-defined. In ROTS the AI pays more attention to distance when evaluating targets, so it'll attack and colonize nearer planets, but still things can get fairly messy.

Of course, with a free-roaming space game like DW, territory is a pretty hard concept to enforce So any ideas on this are most welcome.

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Post #: 22
RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 11:27:19 PM   
Simulation01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

Hi all. I tend to agree that some form of territory and borders would help the game, though I don't think 'claiming' planets as described in the post is a good way to do this.

Down the track we'll be looking further at this. I personally would prefer to see some kind of empire territory - I think this would make the game more understandable. Especially late-game the 'borders' can get pretty ragged and ill-defined. In ROTS the AI pays more attention to distance when evaluating targets, so it'll attack and colonize nearer planets, but still things can get fairly messy.

Of course, with a free-roaming space game like DW, territory is a pretty hard concept to enforce So any ideas on this are most welcome.



I have always liked the way borders were done in the Civilization series by Sid Meier. Also, the Galactic Civilizations way was interesting as well. I think that some combination of the two is needed.

In the modern world...a nations borders extend...I think...some 200 miles from their shores. Something like that should be done in space. Your borders should extend some distance from your systems..If they overlap..then they should merge to form one contiguous border.

If your borders and another empires overlap..those areas where they overlap would be 'disputed' areas and ships from either empire could enter that area..however relations between you would suffer ( this could be the basis for creating demilitarized zones treaties ).

Commercial vessels from any race should be able to pass through borders with no problems unless you have an embargo against the empire they belong to.

Military vessels should be able to pass through if they are not part of a fleet or maybe if they don't exceed a certain number. More and or fleets should be able to pass through if you have some sort of military access, mutual assistance, or treaty of alliance.

Or you could have it set so that if you don't have some form of non-aggression treat then those empires ships can move through your space at will....if you signed a treaty with them...then those ships would not be able to violate your borders without signing some other treaty or by breaking the non-aggression treaty ( you would not have to go to war...simply break the treaty ).


It may be that in order to make the concept of borders function correctly....the concept and implementation of Faster than light travel will have to be modified and or the spacing of star systems as well. I for one already think this needs to be tweaked. Right now we have maps that are the same size simply more or less crowded.


Edit:

Also, concerning the idea of outposts. If we cannot have outposts...then what about the ability to blockade or quarantine a planet that is not colonized. I stated it once already...but this would work similar to the way you set up a blockade now...you hover over it with your mouse till the little road construction/blocked sign appears...then the ships patrol and will not allow any other ships to approach. this would negate the need for outposts.

< Message edited by Simulation01 -- 12/20/2010 11:33:04 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 11:29:14 PM   
ehsumrell1


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From: The Briar Patch Nebula
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lancer

Ownership of territory goes to those that colonise it, not to those who claim it is in their sphere of influence, got there first, etc.

You want it, you colonise it.

If you missed out and you still want it, then you have to fight for it.

Overall I think that CodeForce have got it about right. Colonisation itself is a big, difficult exercise. It grants ownership.

Cheers,
Lancer



I must concur with the above excerpt from Lancer concerning this. The way I see it, if you have
a game that is 1400 stars, 22 empires, any number of independent races (that may become empires
of their own) plus the knowledge that you can design ships (and bases) better than your AI opponents,
I'd just rather not see the game become that complicated. From my experience, that level of
complication could seriously damage the game. Just my two blocks of Gold-Pressed Latinum worth.


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Post #: 24
RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 11:38:48 PM   
nammafia

 

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Status: offline 		In Star Trek, all systems within a certain light years from a COLONIZED planets become exclusive zone for the race which lives there. This might be a good model for empire border.

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Post #: 25
RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 11:46:29 PM   
tornnight

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nammafia

In Star Trek, all systems within a certain light years from a COLONIZED planets become exclusive zone for the race which lives there. This might be a good model for empire border.


I like this idea. Simple but makes sense. Very much like the Civilization games.

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Post #: 26
RE: Planet Outposts - 12/20/2010 11:57:02 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		4X games with tidy borders ala MOO2,imperium galactica 2 tend to have very small ship range for the early to mid stage.In DW you can colonize everwhere from early game.

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RE: Planet Outposts - 12/21/2010 12:00:12 AM   
Simulation01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

4X games with tidy borders ala MOO2,imperium galactica 2 tend to have very small ship range for the early to mid stage.In DW you can colonize everwhere from early game.



Which I think is the source of a lot of our problems. The ranges really have to be addressed.

_____________________________

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Post #: 28
RE: Planet Outposts - 12/21/2010 12:18:16 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tornnight


quote:

ORIGINAL: nammafia

In Star Trek, all systems within a certain light years from a COLONIZED planets become exclusive zone for the race which lives there. This might be a good model for empire border.


I like this idea. Simple but makes sense. Very much like the Civilization games.


I'll disagree. If I want that I'll go play Civ. DW is different and I hope it stays different and true to the original design. The last thing we need is a Civ or Galactic Civ clone.

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Post #: 29
RE: Planet Outposts - 12/21/2010 8:58:04 AM   
forsaken1111

 

Posts: 281
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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Why would troops on a planet or moon have any real influence on what is happening in space around them?  Those troops would exert no influence or authority over anything other than the rock they occupy.  IMHO this is not the way to go with the design.

The troops wouldn't have an effect on anything in space. They WOULD prevent a colony ship from establishing a colony, which was the entire point I believe. You 'claim' the planet for the empire and land a few troops to establish a military presence, maybe patrol it with some escort ships. This is a 'soft' claim, it has no effect on anything aside from preventing an enemy from dropping a colony there. They could easily bombard your troops to death, or drop their own to fight over the planet, and it would cost you maintenance to maintain this unsupported outpost.

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