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RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 1:00:05 AM

LarryP

Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hgilmer3

It took me 8 tries before I beat Road to Minsk. I was hating life. Then I won!

I will make sure to remember this as I am now playing that scenario. Thanks!

(in reply to hgilmer3)

Post #: 31

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 1:16:10 AM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
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fsp

one thing from reading your post, it sounds to me, like you were trying to do too much, a 50 Div pocket is great, but...
cut it down, make 3 or 4 smaller pockets, then try to combine them, this way, if one breaks away, it is not a totally loss

and to be honest, the perfect pocket, takes a lot of planning and work to pull off, and mainly, they happen, very early in the game, later on, you are going to want to go for mini pockets, some of your best pockets are going to come from, pockets that got away

if you read some of the testers AAR, most of them went with a very tight pocket, I tended to use a bit looser pocket, but I always took a lot of extra hexes, to make sure they couldn't slip away, but, it takes time to get used to, understand what works and what don't

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Post #: 32

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 1:22:15 AM

Rosseau

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
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I have read you can change the extension of your savegame file to ".scn" and load it in the editor. From there, you can make any adjustments you feel are appropriate in your current scenario.

Much like in HOI3, I am creating some manageable operations and just enjoying the system and details right now. Whether they are historical or not. I find it fascinating to create some new Corps, Air, etc. and see how the AI and the system reacts to the changes. I have come to enjoy the what-ifs. I find in many games, the historical situations can be quite boring. But I am weird, I guess...

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 33

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 1:34:39 AM

hgilmer3

Posts: 530
Joined: 12/28/2008
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I will say this about Road to Minsk and the forums. When I was losing, I was getting very discouraged because it seemed like everyone was just breezing through it and I was struggling. I even posted something to the effect (jokingly, of course) that I was beginning to hate these people who were romping easily through Minsk.

Sometimes, if you read the forums, it seems that everyone is winning easily and you begin to wonder why you can't do very well. That was me. I still have only beaten Road to Minsk. I'm playing a PBEM of Road to Leningrad (first try with that scenario) and things don't seem to be going so well for me playing the Germans.

_____________________________

KurtC in the WITE PBEM module.

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 34

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 1:56:45 AM

mmarquo

Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
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My first attempt at the CG; turn 8 a motorized division was in a Moscow hex; turn 11 I am adjacent to Leningrad and Kharkov; if you do not read the manual and the posts on this forum, you stand no chance at all - forget it.

It is a blast - the battle for Moscow is raging and now that I have learned how to use the support units somewhat properly, the Leningrad defenders are withereing under the effect of massed artillery. My only fear is the mud, but I think I am in good shape.

Most of the "bugs" are answered in the manual - it is a committment to read: I keep it open all the time and constantly refer to it and I am finally getting it.

Enjoy -

Marquo

(in reply to Tophat1815)

Post #: 35

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 2:34:05 AM

Mifune

Posts: 787
Joined: 4/28/2005
From: Florida
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Fsp, I can feel your pain. With AE there were many options to choose how to play. I will agree the game feels a bit too restrictive but once you start seeing some mods with some elbow room to play with the fun will be there.Even by reading the forums it looks like only one way to play. But this game certainly has plenty of potential once we are free to have some fun.

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Perennial Remedial Student of the Mike Solli School of Economics. One day I might graduate.

(in reply to fsp)

Post #: 36

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 2:38:29 AM

Redmarkus5

Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

As Erik stated - when you encircle, you have to NOT attack that turn - leave the unit encircled for a turn before attacking. If you attack on the turn you encircle, they will rout out....leave them a turn then attack and BAM...surrendered

Yes this is a very misunderstood part of the game, and good advice about not attacking surrounded units until next turn. However I don't understand how it is supposed to be realistic for units to rout out of a closed pocket when they can't move out of the pocket normally.Can someone explain the reason behind this or is it just because they are not sure how to modify the rout routine to avoid routing units crossing enemy lines?

Henri

I played a couple of small scenarios and then jumped in to the grand campaign as the Soviets, with the Axis on 110%.

I made lots of mistakes and lost half my army (as the real Soviets did) but now it's winter '41 and I have held Moscow and I am counter attacking, which is very satisfying!

The complaint about the AI pockets and routing etc. are completely valid, and these design issues really need to be addressed by the developers IMO, but if you play the Soviet side in order to learn the game, you won't be frustrated by these problems for a long time - no German pockets yet for me!

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WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to henri51)

Post #: 37

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 2:39:17 AM

Gandalf

Posts: 364
Joined: 12/15/2010
From: Jefferson City, MO
Status: offline

In response to the OP... If I had plopped down $80 for a monster game on the East Front and 3 days later figured out how to win with only 11 turns under my belt towards a 225 turn scenario, I would be screaming for my money back for being sold a game with such a cheesy AI.

(in reply to Tophat1815)

Post #: 38

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 2:43:56 AM

FredSanford3

Posts: 567
Joined: 6/23/2007
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For units "disappearing" out of incompletely formed pockets- is it possible the AI is simply disbanding them?

(in reply to Gandalf)

Post #: 39

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 2:45:26 AM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

For units "disappearing" out of incompletely formed pockets- is it possible the AI is simply disbanding them?

:) maybe they all just put on their civvies and went home LOL

_____________________________

WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to FredSanford3)

Post #: 40

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 2:51:31 AM

FredSanford3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

quote:

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

For units "disappearing" out of incompletely formed pockets- is it possible the AI is simply disbanding them?

:) maybe they all just put on their civvies and went home LOL

Apparently they didn't want to play anymore either...

(in reply to Redmarkus5)

Post #: 41

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 2:53:45 AM

Gandalf

Posts: 364
Joined: 12/15/2010
From: Jefferson City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

For units "disappearing" out of incompletely formed pockets- is it possible the AI is simply disbanding them?

only if a RR supply line has been left intact into the pocket. (or an AI cheat is in play)

quote:

18.5.1. DISBAND REQUIREMENTS AND RESTRICTIONS

Units can only disband if they have enough movement points remaining to move to a rail hex that is connected to the supply grid, and if they are not within three hexes of an enemy unit.
...

(in reply to FredSanford3)

Post #: 42

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 3:10:00 AM

tevans6220

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/3/2005
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Too many assumptions are being made toward the OP. Everyone has just assumed that he hasn't played any of the "Road to" scenarios and that he hasn't read the manual before playing the GC. Maybe he has. How many times can you do the same turn over and over again without getting frustrated? Playing the "Road to" scenarios and then playing the GC is bascially the same thing. It's playing the same turns over and over. WitE is not like WiTP. There aren't as many strategic options. If you want to win you have to get Moscow and Leningrad and there's only a few ways to get there. If you can't do it then you aren't going to win. Period. There's only so many ways that you can get to Leningrad or Moscow. And it doesn't take a genious to see if you're going to make it or not.

I really don't like some the elitist attitudes I'm seeing that give the impression that the OP isn't smart enough to start out playing the GC or that he hasn't read the manual. Where does it say that he can't start out with the GC. The "Road to" scenarios play under the same rules. So what difference does it make? Instead of putting the guy down why not try helping him. There have been very few helpful posts in this thread.

(in reply to FredSanford3)

Post #: 43

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 3:14:32 AM

Sheytan

Posts: 863
Joined: 11/28/2006
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You got me there!

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Actually I disagree. You should have a chance to win if you play well. You CAN win playing WITP AE as Japan, and you can win in this game as the Germans. It all depends on how WELL you play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: fsp
Again, I have only played eleven turns and surely am missing something here? Any ideas, suggestions or thoughts that might help me here?

I think you want everything and NOW You should be patient. All of us (except the testers) are STARTING to play, understand, grasp this game too. We are a bunch of noobs. I will not try to convince you though. You're old enough

Anyway, do NOT expect the Germans to win... just like the Japanese CANNOT win in WitP. They messed with the wrong guys, that's all

Sheytan, playing against �ber incompetent players does not count I ALWAYS assume (a mark of respect) most players are competent

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Post #: 44

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 3:15:15 AM

Sheytan

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Well said, I would be bashing if that was the case.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gandalf

In response to the OP... If I had plopped down $80 for a monster game on the East Front and 3 days later figured out how to win�with only 11 turns under my belt towards a 225 turn scenario, I would be screaming for my money back for being sold a game with such a cheesy AI.

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Post #: 45

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 3:15:47 AM

hgilmer3

Posts: 530
Joined: 12/28/2008
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I'd like to think my posts were putting myself in the same position as him. I'm fond of saying, "If I can play this game, anyone can." In a way that may seem like putting him down, but since I'm saying the same about myself, I don't see it that way.

I've already mentioned I got discouraged as well, but eventually started getting to the point where I was not discouraged.

I feel that most have been pretty supportive, so I hope FSP doesn't feel anyone was putting him down.

_____________________________

KurtC in the WITE PBEM module.

(in reply to tevans6220)

Post #: 46

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 3:21:38 AM

tevans6220

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

By the way - how can you know this game well enough to tackle the Grand Campaign? I'm not saying new people to the game shouldn't tackle the GC if that's what they want, but to give up saying it's impossible to win if you don't know the game mechanics inside out is also very premature.

Do the Road To scenarios. Get some "localised" tactics down. Read the relevant sections of the manual as you play those. If you're ego is so bruised by a good AI, then drop it to easy and grab those early wins. I doubt I'll be playing the GC on anything other than Easy first time round.

Why can't he tackle the GC. The rules are the same as for the "Road to" scenarios. How do you know exactly how that he hasn't played the "Road to" scenarios or read the manual? And maybe it's not a bruised ego with the AI but an actual AI cheat. How do you know? Both of your posts come off as being highly elitist without being helpful to the OP at all.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 47

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 4:02:19 AM

Johnus

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I am just finishing "War Without Garlands-Operation Barbarossa 1941-1942" by Robert Kershaw. He claims (and describes in detail) that the pockets of 1941, especially when first formed, were extremely "porous." Many Soviet units did "rout out of" (or escape) these pockets until the cordons had time to solidify. The game situation, where many Soviet units rout when attacked in the turn the pocket forms and surrender when they are attacked instead in the next turn, appears to be right on target.

< Message edited by Johnnie -- 12/22/2010 4:06:02 AM >

(in reply to tevans6220)

Post #: 48

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 4:04:06 AM

morganbj

Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
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You guys take the OP seriously? Quit the game after 11 turns? Give me a break!

(in reply to tevans6220)

Post #: 49

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 4:32:49 AM

pompack

Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

You guys take the OP seriously?� Quit the game after 11 turns?� Give me a break!

It's been a slow day

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Post #: 50

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 4:40:27 AM

bcgames

Posts: 2527
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Bramble Rose Farm, KS
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Snap out of it! Ruck up and move out. It's the journey that matters--the destination takes care of itself if you've done the trip right.

< Message edited by bcgames -- 12/22/2010 4:41:59 AM >

(in reply to pompack)

Post #: 51

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 4:42:32 AM

Tzar007

Posts: 772
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From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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fsp:

If I would be Patton, I would chastise you the way he could do it: "Son, aren't you lacking a bit in the perseverance department here? Come on !!!"

But my avatar is the soft-spoken Ike, so I am going to say to you to hang on in there, not all is lost:

First, you have learned a lot in those first 11 turns. You've got your nose bloodied and you have learned things you shouldn't do, things you should do, and things you have to watch for. You're still in summer 1941, and these lessons will come in handy later.
If you jumped straight into a grand campaign for your first game, believing you would be entering the gates of Moscow on your first try or so, this is a rude awakening indeed. I have been through this awakening twice myself playing the Road to Smolensk scenario and losing the first one decisively and the second one was a minor defeat. Your experience is typical.
The game is based on historical reality. The reality is that from whatever angle you look at it, Germany had basically no chance of winning this war in the long run. You have to keep this perspective in mind. The challenge here is not to get a Major Victory as Germans, but rather to do better than what historically happened (lasting a bit longer, getting possibly a draw or limit the Soviets to a Minor Victory...getting a minor German victory would be fantastic).
Even though 11 turns is very early in a GC, if you feel you already have learned so much and you could do much better if you had the chance to restart, by all means do it. The Wehrmacht could not rewind and restart. You can, and since you have not invested too much energy and time yet after only 11 turns, it's easier to restart now.
As for getting better and better, you already know the drill: read the manual, read the threads and continue to ask questions. Practice makes perfect.

(in reply to morganbj)

Post #: 52

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 4:46:31 AM

Tzar007

Posts: 772
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From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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And forgot to say: why not try the Soviets for a change ?

(in reply to Tzar007)

Post #: 53

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 5:18:57 AM

jomni

Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
Why can't he tackle the GC. The rules are the same as for the "Road to" scenarios.

Actually the rules (victory conditions) are different between GC and limited scenarios. This influences strategy and gameplay. "Road to" scenarios are a race against time. If you do this in GC, you can gain much ground before the first Mud and Winter but does it guarantee a win? Maybe playing too much "Road to" scenarios will influence reckless maneuvers in GC, leaving the Axis exhausted and with unsercure supply lines as you lack long term planning.

Also even if you fail Operation Barbarossa, if you do a good defense and prevent Germany from capitulating, it is a Draw for the Grand Campaign. All is not lost because you're not doing well in the 11th turn as the Axis.

< Message edited by jomni -- 12/22/2010 5:25:31 AM >

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Post #: 54

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 7:05:21 AM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

As Erik stated - when you encircle, you have to NOT attack that turn - leave the unit encircled for a turn before attacking. If you attack on the turn you encircle, they will rout out....leave them a turn then attack and BAM...surrendered

Yes this is a very misunderstood part of the game, and good advice about not attacking surrounded units until next turn. However I don't understand how it is supposed to be realistic for units to rout out of a closed pocket when they can't move out of the pocket normally.Can someone explain the reason behind this or is it just because they are not sure how to modify the rout routine to avoid routing units crossing enemy lines?

Henri

I just assumed it's because it's turn based. Real war isn't - to state the obvious, it's real time - so the fact the game is turn based, I've just went with the idea that if it was real time, they'd try to rout out.

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Post #: 55

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 7:09:21 AM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
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From: Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

By the way - how can you know this game well enough to tackle the Grand Campaign? I'm not saying new people to the game shouldn't tackle the GC if that's what they want, but to give up saying it's impossible to win if you don't know the game mechanics inside out is also very premature.

Do the Road To scenarios. Get some "localised" tactics down. Read the relevant sections of the manual as you play those. If you're ego is so bruised by a good AI, then drop it to easy and grab those early wins. I doubt I'll be playing the GC on anything other than Easy first time round.

Why can't he tackle the GC. The rules are the same as for the "Road to" scenarios. How do you know exactly how that he hasn't played the "Road to" scenarios or read the manual? And maybe it's not a bruised ego with the AI but an actual AI cheat. How do you know? Both of your posts come off as being highly elitist without being helpful to the OP at all.

Because if you've read the manual and played the Road To scenarios, then I'm thinking he's got a good grasp of the rules. And I personally think if you have a good grasp of the rules - then you are NOT going to say, in your 11th turn of 240, that there is no way for you to win...and if you are going to say that, then you either haven't got a good grasp of the rules, or you are so uber at the game that you figured that out after 11 turns.

I didn't say I knew he hadn't read the manual or played the Road to scenarios. He asked for advice and I gave what little I had. He gave little information on the way he played those 11 turns, so there is very little you can give as ideas as to what he can do. Besides, I don't know the game well enough to give anything other than what I offered.

I'm sorry I tried to give him pointers.

_____________________________

Alba gu' brath

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Post #: 56

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 7:26:33 AM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
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From: Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

By the way - how can you know this game well enough to tackle the Grand Campaign? I'm not saying new people to the game shouldn't tackle the GC if that's what they want, but to give up saying it's impossible to win if you don't know the game mechanics inside out is also very premature.

Do the Road To scenarios. Get some "localised" tactics down. Read the relevant sections of the manual as you play those. If you're ego is so bruised by a good AI, then drop it to easy and grab those early wins. I doubt I'll be playing the GC on anything other than Easy first time round.

Why can't he tackle the GC. The rules are the same as for the "Road to" scenarios. How do you know exactly how that he hasn't played the "Road to" scenarios or read the manual? And maybe it's not a bruised ego with the AI but an actual AI cheat. How do you know? Both of your posts come off as being highly elitist without being helpful to the OP at all.

Elitist? You're joking right?. There is nothing elitist about my post. I am nowhere near understanding the game. Nor am I a fanboy (just in case you throw that one in the bag).

To go a different road to "My dad is bigger than your dad", my post was more helpful than yours. You have made two posts, one attacking most people who responded to his post and one directed at me.

Sure I made assumptions as did others. But anyone turning in the towel after 11 turns is having a laugh...seriously. And it smacks of having a bruised ego.

I tried to help by suggesting the manual and the Road To scenarios because there was very little information in his post. It was left to us to guess what the problems were. I didn't know he hadn't read the manual. I didn't know he hadn't played the Road To scenarios - I guessed.

There are testers in here that have been playing the game months, years for some, and I've read them post they're still learning new ways of doing things. I just guessed that after 11 turns, less than 5% of the game length, that he hadn't experimented.

If he has experimented, if he has read the manual and if he does have a solid grasp of the rules, then I'd like him to say so...then people who understand the game (much better than I do at the moment) can help him properly. As it is, I helped how I could.

< Message edited by JudgeDredd -- 12/22/2010 7:28:15 AM >

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Alba gu' brath

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Post #: 57

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 7:36:08 AM

Tophat1815

Posts: 1824
Joined: 1/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

By the way - how can you know this game well enough to tackle the Grand Campaign? I'm not saying new people to the game shouldn't tackle the GC if that's what they want, but to give up saying it's impossible to win if you don't know the game mechanics inside out is also very premature.

Do the Road To scenarios. Get some "localised" tactics down. Read the relevant sections of the manual as you play those. If you're ego is so bruised by a good AI, then drop it to easy and grab those early wins. I doubt I'll be playing the GC on anything other than Easy first time round.

Why can't he tackle the GC. The rules are the same as for the "Road to" scenarios. How do you know exactly how that he hasn't played the "Road to" scenarios or read the manual? And maybe it's not a bruised ego with the AI but an actual AI cheat. How do you know? Both of your posts come off as being highly elitist without being helpful to the OP at all.

Well,maybe,just maybe by tackling the GC without knowing the basics or understanding the flow of the game he might just become overwhelmed,demoralized and decide to quit Mr.Anti-Elitist. Then he'll feel so despondent he'll start a thread just like this. Then a bunch of us fairly nice fellows will feel compelled to tell him it just ain't so and please give it another try. And you know what? maybe he will start things up again,be the first one to beat the darn AI and make us all feel insufferably pleased with ourselves! Or maybe not............time will tell.

(in reply to tevans6220)

Post #: 58

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 7:38:20 AM

jomni

Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
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quote:

Yes this is a very misunderstood part of the game, and good advice about not attacking surrounded units until next turn. However I don't understand how it is supposed to be realistic for units to rout out of a closed pocket when they can't move out of the pocket normally.Can someone explain the reason behind this or is it just because they are not sure how to modify the rout routine to avoid routing units crossing enemy lines?

That is because a turn is one week. It simulates that the encirclement, attack and rout happens at the same abstracted time frame (not sequentially as you play it via turn-based). It's a different case when the encirclement happened the week before where any routing that happens cannot be beyond the encirclement because the lines have been secured for some time. I think this (partial hex control) a very good and reasonable game mechanic that makes WITE stand out among other turn based games. Some thing not necessary when you play 1-day turns or real-time and WEGO resolution.

< Message edited by jomni -- 12/22/2010 7:42:18 AM >

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 59

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 8:01:17 AM

Krec