Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: paullus99

I certainly was not defending anything that was done on the Axis side during WWII - their crimes were especially heinous and beyond the pale of any past conflict, both in scope and depth of depravity.

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I only point out that if the Axis had won, most of what did occur would have been swept under the carpet - and people like Winston Churchill and "Bomber" Harris would have been put on trial for "crimes against humanity" just like the Nazi leaders (and to a much lesser extent, Japanese leaders) were after the war.

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History is written by the victors, and many of the instances where Allied forces acted in a somewhat similar fashion (though not anywhere close to what the Nazis did - though the Russians definitely had their fair share) were looked at as more of "heat of the moment" or necessary evils - shooting of prisoners, fire-bombing of cities (particularly Dresden). Of course, on our side, we have examined these incidents, and in some cases, held those responsible - but we didn't hang anyone for it (our guys).

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ORIGINAL: Terminus

Nothing different about their uniforms from other Waffen SS units, aside from the death's head replacing the SS runes:

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ORIGINAL: mariandavid

The number of women who 'died' after the Russian occupation of what was East Germany is highly politised. Any figure needs to be questioned because there were no statistics made at the time and much of the data was determined from 'witness' statements taken long after the event. I was in Germany in the 50's (my father was an officer in the British occupation forces) and was told that with the 'rejuvanation of Germany' (to fight communism) that all sorts of data was being 'brought together' to justify the changes coming into effect. Such as the new army, the recruitment of officers and men (including those from the Waffen SS, but carefully sanitised!) etc etc. The one fact that is clearly documented is that the rapes/murders/robberies were NOT carried out by the Russian fighting troops - the dates and reports make it clear that support troops, including the NKVD 'combat' units were very largely responsible. How anyone could calculate the number of suicides baffles me, since the statistics in this regard were retained by the pro-communist East German government.

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ORIGINAL: Mynok


The Nazi camps were not war crimes. They were simply crimes, period.

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ORIGINAL: amatteucci

In addition, there are many documented cases of German officers that refused to follow "criminal" orders and were neither prosecuted nor demoted for their refusal.

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ORIGINAL: amatteucci

I'd also add that making such a stand after the summer of 1944 might have been more difficult than at the beginning of the war...

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As you say having the courage to refuse such an order may not lie in your own moral standing, but in what may have happened to others in your unit who previously disobeyed an order. Do not forget that it may not be only you who suffers but your family back home. I certainly think, I'm sorry to say, that If I was in a unit that always prosecuted men who disobeyed orders and it was between me and some poor Russian peasant, then the peasant would be on the losing side, after all in human nature one's first basic instinct is self preservation.

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ORIGINAL: Xian

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Normality never existed in the Eastern Front. Hitler clearly said it: the war in Russia would be an EXTERMINATION war. So Russians knew what to expect (slavs -Russians, Poles,etc.- would be the slaves of the Reich). That's why in the western front the Germans could seem -with some exceptions- 'gentlemen'

If I remember correctly, when the Soviets captured black uniforms they were shot on sight

And there is the Kommissar Order and other extermination orders that required all troops to either kill Soviet Kommissars upon capture and for the Wehrmacht to assist in the extermination and wholesale killing of Jews. The adherence to these orders were mixed throughout the German forces on the East Front. Many followed them, some delayed, some even refused to follow the orders. The very interesting thing is that nobody who refused to follow these orders were every court martialed or had other adverse consequences as documented by the Wehrmacht Exhibitions in Germany over the last 10 years, where many apologists and revisionists tried to keep the honor of the Wehrmacht clean.

Both sides were not "nice to each other". The treatment of Soviet POWs in German capitivity was despicable and the treatment of German POWs by the Soviets was not better. Of the 300,000 German solidiers that were captured by the Soviets in Stalingrad, 5,000 came back after the war. The rest "died."

All sides in World War Two, Germans, Soviets, Americans, even the British committed war crimes including the killing of Prisoners of War. Just look at the POW numbers that were captured in Normandy. Those were unmotivated, second line, soft troops, the POW rates were extremely low and not because they were such fanatical fighters.... It's just that history is written by the victors and their crimes get conveniently forgotten.

More than 600,000 women committed suicide in Berlin between May and December 1945 after the Soviets occupied Berlin and not because they were heatbroken because the Fuehrer was no longer with them. The wholesale, repeated rape and sexual abuse took its toll. Basically every female between the age of 12 and 80, east of the river Elbe suffered the same fate.

There are no heros in that war. Only shades of gray and some were better than the others, but all sides had black sheep just some had more than others, a lot more than others.