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RE: Turn 3 - 12/29/2010 6:54:10 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Removing the Panzers from the area would also essentially mean giving up on capturing Leningrad in 1941 and thus probably for the rest of the game, as you need some mobility to unhinge the defenders between Pskov and Leningrad.

I'm not unhappy with the progress thus far, I'm just unhappy with some of the "behind the scenes" rolls. I still have time to change my dispositions if needed. As long as I can get a decent amount of fuel to the front each turn, my advance should not truly halt.

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Post #: 31
RE: Turn 4 - 12/30/2010 4:01:58 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		notenome bombed some of my airfields this turn, an interesting development. About 50 planes were lost in total. I had set the Luftwaffe to 110% required to fly, so there were no interceptors. That was a deliberate choice, not an oversight. If planes had flown, they would've intercepted some of the recon missions he would fly and would drop from the sky like flies due to the fatique bug (which will be fixed for the next official patch, it has already been fixed in a tester hotfix). My operational losses would probably have been higher had the Luftwaffe flown missions.

As predicted, due to the HQ switching, the units near Pskov have minimal amounts of fuel. I'll pull back some of them to get in range of the nearest rail line, which has just crossed the Daugava. The rest of my mobile forces have reasonable fuel levels and MP's though.

notenome didn't displace the exposed Panzer corps HQ. Whether he didn't spot it or did so out of some sort of courtesy, I don't know.

Due to the new hotfixes (which will also be included in the next patch) that dramatically reduce leader casualties, I haven't lost anyone yet.

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Post #: 32
RE: Turn 4 - 12/31/2010 1:50:26 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		I've been pondering, and I see the following strategic problems currently:

1) Due to the terrain that heavily favours the defender, getting to Leningrad in a timely fashion is probably impossible. An entire Panzer group has been held by 4 divisions in swamps/rough terrain for 2 turns as the terrain gives super CV modifiers to the Soviets. notenome might call that a victory, I'd call it being defeated by the system as it doesn't feel right that any kind of attacks through swamps with mobile units will essentially fail (this means, for example, that the historical drive to Tikhvin is a pipe dream).

The choice now is whether to keep advancing with my Panzers, knowing that it might very well be impossible to take Leningrad, or to move my Panzers to AGC and just let my infantry push the front forward a bit.

The AGN area is currently the main area where a historical advance isn't likely due to the terrain, if cleverly used. The modifiers the Soviets get in swamps are just too awesome (and also, in my opinion, too effective). They're also extremely random it seems. In one deliberate attack, modified CV was 8 times as high as the initial value, in another modified CV was half the initial value for no clear reason at all. Even after the lengthy debates about CV's on the tester forums, the "under the hood" functioning of the system remains something of a mystery.

As I don't like to gamble, and certainly don't like situations that seem to depend solely on luck, the "move the Panzers to AGC" option sounds very enticing. There just doesn't seem much of a reason to keep pushing with mobile units in the AGN area.

2) Due to the limited advances in the AGC area, the Dnepr's probably fortified. How much of a problem this will be remains to be seen. It was a deliberate choice to commit fewer forces to AGC, and thus far I don't mind, but getting across the Dnepr will be tricky.

3) There's probably a huge concentration of troops in the Kiev area by now, so a northern hook will probably be needed to encourage them to go. That's one of the reason why I'm storming through the Pripyat marshes.

As the Soviets, it's difficult to grasp the limitations imposed on the Axis, but in some ways they're pretty impressive. The reduction of engagement distances in difficult terrain really changed the nature of the campaign, making swamps real fortresses even when held by seriously understrength Soviet forces. The main problem is the lack of Axis force multipliers. Their initial CV's usually won't raise much to get to the modified CV, air power isn't always effective and the Axis support units are often too small to make a real difference. I was expecting mobile hasty attacks to fail in swamps, but I wasn't expecting deliberate attacks by infantry to fail at this rate.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 12/31/2010 1:52:21 PM >

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Post #: 33
RE: Turn 4 - 12/31/2010 1:54:20 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		In the AGN area, two Panzer corps have been moved within 10 hexes of the nearest rail line, I might move the Panzer group to AGC as I'm not getting anywhere in the Pskov area solely due to the terrain.

Edit: the defenders of Riga routing is WAD.

4th Panzer Group is now assigned to OKH.




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< Message edited by ComradeP -- 12/31/2010 2:14:31 PM >

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Post #: 34
RE: Turn 4 - 12/31/2010 1:56:45 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Some gains in the AGC area, mostly in the swamps. The front is slowly being pushed east.

All mobile forces in AGC now belong to 3rd Panzer Group.




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< Message edited by ComradeP -- 1/5/2011 11:39:01 PM >

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Post #: 35
RE: Turn 4 - 12/31/2010 1:59:24 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		In the AGS area, mobile forces push towards Kiev. They'll turn south next turn probably, leaving Kiev to the infantry.




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Post #: 36
RE: Turn 4 - 12/31/2010 2:01:12 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Nothing spectacular to report on the Romanian front.






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Post #: 37
RE: Turn 4 - 12/31/2010 2:03:14 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		AFV losses are mounting, mostly due to vehicles not being repairable (about 100 each turn). The Luftwaffe's still in good shape mostly due to not flying many missions (my bombers have only been flying supply missions once a turn). Some missions were costly this turn due to a lack of escorts, but production is still keeping up with many of the losses.

I expect that notenome's bombing campaign and my fighter intercepts of his recon missions will increase operational losses.




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< Message edited by ComradeP -- 12/31/2010 2:07:10 PM >

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Post #: 38
RE: Turn 4 - 12/31/2010 4:16:20 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		notenome's bombing campaign on my airfields and on some of my units is surprisingly effective given the period. I've posted some results on the tester forum as I was wondering if they were WAD. The Soviets are losing about as many planes as I am, sometimes even less, and my CAP and AA don't seem to do much. Considering that this is July 1941, with poorly trained pilots and bombers with low payloads, I dread what will happen later on.

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RE: Turn 4 - 12/31/2010 6:45:23 PM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		The air campaign he is waging seems to point out there are indeed some issues with the air model.

The intercepts on the recon stuff need to go because they do nothing except screw up your own aircraft. Rarely does something happen to the recon planes while your own aircraft attrition is ridiculous. Soviet forces trying to do heavy bombing of German units in 1941, especially early, doesn't seem to have the correct feel.

Leaning back to a game like Fire in the East, the Red Air force could do some things but only if they went where the Luftwaffe was not, otherwise they would get slaughtered. Trying to bomb Panzer HQ's that would have ME 109's close by would pretty much be out of the question and why historically it didn't happen.

While there are a lot of aircraft losses to operational stuff and some to flak, it doesn't seem like there are very many to air to air combat casualties and that needs to change, especially for the Germans causing casualties against the Russians if they insist on trying to fly aggressively in 1941 against front line German units. The Germans had over 100 pilots get 100+ kills during the war.

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RE: Turn 4 - 12/31/2010 7:05:16 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Indeed, the main problem is that there's no air superiority phase, that air base bombing isn't effect for the Axis after turn 1 and that he can choose to keep his planes out of ground combat. As a result, I lost about 70 planes to about 70 Soviet planes during the turn. I can live with the lack of an air superiority phase for the moment, but being powerless to stop a few dozen Soviet planes from raiding my air bases is silly. Neither my AA or CAP performed anything like I would expect them to, or up to their historical standard. AA units have low experience in general, only about 50, I still have to ask if that's WAD.

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RE: Turn 4 - 1/1/2011 1:38:20 AM   
jjdenver

 

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Status: offline 		I wonder if you'd have better luck going for Leningrad if you sent an infantry army from AGC north instead of the Panzer Gruppe?

And a Pz Gruppe or 2 from AGC added to the south would help you quickly grab some resources - Stalino area, Kharkov, and maybe turn the corner at Rostov before winter hits. I have no experience here - just postulating.

Pushing in AGC area doesn't seem too productive at this point due to the terrain in front of Moscow. The South seems more suited to panzer drives. Again - just throwing out ideas that I have no experience to back up.

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Post #: 42
RE: Turn 4 - 1/1/2011 5:46:15 AM   
jay102

 

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< Message edited by jay102 -- 1/1/2011 2:14:49 PM >

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RE: Turn 4 - 1/1/2011 2:33:04 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		I think I'll send the Panzer group to AGC and try to get across the Dnepr, although I don't know how likely it is that I can get across it in a timely fashion. AGC would then have about 2 (understrength) Panzer groups and AGS 2 overstrength Panzer groups if the Axis Allies are included.

In order to take Leningrad, you really need to get there before turn 10 as after that the forts are too good and there are too many quality divisions in reserve, at least against a competent player. The reserve divisions are the main reason why simply assaulting it probably won't work. You can bring 6-9 divisions, which would have enough trouble as is with 3 divisions in level 4 forts in city/urban terrain, but the reserve divisions that will join the battle will turn it into a nightmare. After turn 10, you can basically only isolate it, which isn't going to happen due to the terrain and the current effectiveness of swamps in stopping any kind of mobile attack. The Germans also have the problem that they can't commit large quantities of artillery, as they won't generally commit more than 4 battalions at best to a battle.

jay102: you'll get to the outskirts of Leningrad on about turn 10, with the bulk of your forces arriving there on turn 11-12. Depending on the AI defenses, you might need to isolate it before being able to take it, but taking Pushkin and Kolpino should probably be possible. You can then work on planning to take Leningrad in 1942. Soviet resistance will be stiff, but you don't have that many hexes to go to isolate the ports on Lake Ladoga.

With the current problems facing the Germans, your Soviet opponent would have to mess up his defence quite a bit if you are to take Leningrad.

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RE: Turn 4 - 1/2/2011 7:38:03 AM   
jay102

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for your experienced comments, I edited the last post I think it's inappropriate to post screenshots in other people's AAR.

It seems my plan of taking Leningrad before 41 winter failed.

I also faced the powerful swamp defence. Three different german infantry division make three deliberate attack against a Russian division in swamp. All 3 attacks failed! Maybe I should avoid swamps like plague in this game. Leningrad probably impossible to isolate because of the swamp around Ladoga.



< Message edited by jay102 -- 1/2/2011 6:51:03 PM >

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Post #: 45
RE: Turn 5 - 1/3/2011 2:45:49 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Limited progress in the AGN area. The defenders in the swamps near Pskov have been encircled. My mobile forces will move south next turn now that the infantry has caught up with them.






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Post #: 46
RE: Turn 5 - 1/3/2011 2:47:04 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Limited progress in the AGC area too.

notenome attacked the Panzer division near Vitebsk and routed it on his turn. It was about time he attacked one of my mobile units, this is the first successful attack he has made. He attacked three times, the first two battles were a held result and the last result routed my division as it had no retreat path. Casualties were not too high (1500 men and about 50 AFV's). The main disappointment remains the abysmal performance of the Luftwaffe. I have absolutely no idea how they can perform as poorly as they are performing currently.

The motorized division was isolated, but that's a minor inconvenience at this moment. I'm not going to push east to Smolensk with them at this point.

The move also shows why I prefer my divisions being routed rather than being isolated. Yes, they take more losses, but they rout back onto the supply grid and will have decent MP's next turn, whilst the isolated division will have 9.

Some of notenome's cavalry divisions now have enough morale to move into two enemy hexes in ZOC it seems (the only way he could've isolated the Panzer division).




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< Message edited by ComradeP -- 1/3/2011 3:06:17 PM >

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RE: Turn 5 - 1/3/2011 2:52:05 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Some progress in the AGS area, the mobile units will swing south now that they've cleared a path for the infantry.

I took the screenshot before I moved a Panzer division to isolate the stack at the southern point of the screenshot properly.




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< Message edited by ComradeP -- 1/3/2011 3:11:19 PM >

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RE: Turn 5 - 1/3/2011 2:53:11 PM   
ComradeP

 

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RE: Turn 5 - 1/3/2011 2:57:33 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Including the routing of the Panzer division in notenome's part of the turn, I had 2 loss results.

Overall, losses are still OK.

notenome's mostly running east, in sort of a limited Sir Robin/Robinovich defence, which makes it impossible to inflict any kind of meaningful losses on the Soviets, which in turn will make the first winter a nightmare as well as make the future crossing of the Dnepr very tricky (depending on what he has on the river, I have some doubts whether it can be successfully crossed before turn 10).

In a future multiplayer game, I think I'll send the mobile units in the AGN area south after turn 2, as with the super swamps it's somewhat pointless to keep them in AGN.

I'm still not unhappy with my progress thus far, but crossing the Dnepr before turn 10 is something that has to happen.




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RE: Turn 5 - 1/5/2011 3:21:25 PM   
BletchleyGeek


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Status: offline 		I have a few questions for you ComradeP:

  • I am surprised to see so many troops of yours - and his - fighting their way across the Pripyat marshes. Was he trying to setup a base on the Pripyat marshes? Such a strategy for the Soviets looks to me as an exercise in wishful thinking: those marshes look to me more like a graveyard than a fortress.

  • What's the turn number? 5? How do you feel about transferring a PzGrp from AGC to AGS? Do you think it is a good idea? I've always personally considered that the original OKH plan wasn't that bad: investing Moscow approaches from the SW disrupts the Soviet rail network and renders - from a "grand strategy" standpoint - irrelevant the South Western and Southern Fronts. That kind of seemingly "catastrophic" crisis might allow the Axis to lure the Soviets into a major showdown around the Bryansk - Orel - Kharkov area.

  • I see that the AGS infantry is struggling to keep the pace of the Panzers. Were they spending too much time clearing pockets?

    Perhaps it will be more effective to let the infantry invest Kiev and strike SE at Cherkassy along the Zhitomir - Cherkassy railroad. Conducting an elastic defense against an opponent that keeps shifting the axis of advance is hard.


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    • Post #: 51
    RE: Turn 5 - 1/5/2011 4:02:23 PM   
    ComradeP

     

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    quote:

    I am surprised to see so many troops of yours - and his - fighting their way across the Pripyat marshes. Was he trying to setup a base on the Pripyat marshes? Such a strategy for the Soviets looks to me as an exercise in wishful thinking: those marshes look to me more like a graveyard than a fortress.


    After noticing that swamps were amazing defensive terrain against infantry too, I decided to storm through the Pripyat marshes to avoid the problems I'm facing in the AGN area. It will also mean he'll have to hold a longer line along the Dnepr, hopefully allowing me to get across it in force soon.

    He hasn't committed many forces to the marshes, the forces in there probably either routed there or could not get out after 1st Cavalry cut the rail line.

    quote:

    What's the turn number? 5? How do you feel about transferring a PzGrp from AGC to AGS? Do you think it is a good idea? I've always personally considered that the original OKH plan wasn't that bad: investing Moscow approaches from the SW disrupts the Soviet rail network and renders - from a "grand strategy" standpoint - irrelevant the South Western and Southern Fronts. That kind of seemingly "catastrophic" crisis might allow the Axis to lure the Soviets into a major showdown around the Bryansk - Orel - Kharkov area.


    It's currently turn 6. I thus far like having transferred a large part of a Panzer Group to AGS. My main problem is in the AGN area, where the extra mobile units were essentially wasted due to unforseen difficulty with the terrain (I knew it would be bad, I just didn't expect it to be this bad even for the infantry). AGC's advance is slow, but I can't really call that a problem for the moment as long as I can get across the Dnepr. It will take me a turn or two to relocate the mobile forces from AGN to AGC.

    Sadly, the benefit for being closer to a functional rail line I was hoping for didn't really materialize, as units still only had about 50% of their fuel requirements. The main benefit seems to have been the HQ's hoarding dumps.

    quote:

    I see that the AGS infantry is struggling to keep the pace of the Panzers. Were they spending too much time clearing pockets?


    The infantry has been able to keep up just fine due to the corridor at Rovno, well, 6th Army in any case. I used 17th Army and minor Axis units to clean up the various pockets. All in all, AGS's infantry support has been good thus far.

    quote:

    Perhaps it will be more effective to let the infantry invest Kiev and strike SE at Cherkassy along the Zhitomir - Cherkassy railroad. Conducting an elastic defense against an opponent that keeps shifting the axis of advance is hard.


    The only reason why my mobile forces are currently near Kiev is to make sure my infantry can get close, they'll turn southeast this turn.

    I need to average about 5 hexes gained each turn if I want to get anywhere. I had hoped I would be able to storm Leningrad, but the swamps near Pskov made that impossible.

    When your opponent pulls back most of his units, like notenome's doing, you're facing the odd reality that 1942 and perhaps even 1943 will be more problematic for the Soviets than 1941. When the 1942 summer offensive starts, my mobile units should be able to pocket substantial enemy forces again, unless he places his units in a checkerboard on the last mud turns (not a bad idea as it would again essentially nullify Axis mobility). He's trading terrain for being able to keep units intact, and as Axis logistics inevitably break down with or without stiff Soviet resistance, the difference in the amount of terrain I can capture between a game where the Soviet player fights or runs away shouldn't be too substantial. The main difference will be much lower Soviet losses when the Soviet player runs away.

    < Message edited by ComradeP -- 1/5/2011 4:05:33 PM >

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    RE: Turn 5 - 1/5/2011 4:57:06 PM   
    BletchleyGeek


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    Status: offline     		Thank you for your answers. I've been mainly playing the Soviet side so far, and my questions are motivated out of curiosity. I'm playing a GC against a human player as well and this kind of discussion gives me a hint about how he is seeing things (btw, he's doing similarly as you're doing, with the exception of the center, of course).

    quote:


    After noticing that swamps were amazing defensive terrain against infantry too, I decided to storm through the Pripyat marshes to avoid the problems I'm facing in the AGN area. It will also mean he'll have to hold a longer line along the Dnepr, hopefully allowing me to get across it in force soon.

    He hasn't committed many forces to the marshes, the forces in there probably either routed there or could not get out after 1st Cavalry cut the rail line.


    In my game I pulled out of the Pripyat marshes as fast as I could. The German cavalry division handles that terrain pretty well I hadn't anything able to counter that. The terrain is very good for defense, but it's rendered irrelevant because of the german advance on both flanks. When it gets isolated, any units you have in there won't get anywhere.

    quote:


    Sadly, the benefit for being closer to a functional rail line I was hoping for didn't really materialize, as units still only had about 50% of their fuel requirements. The main benefit seems to have been the HQ's hoarding dumps.


    Are you finding air resupply to be ineffective? My opponent has been so far able to keep panzers in prime operational condition through that - to my dismay. I've been reinforcing IAD squadrons all along the front line to hinder that.

    I'm expecting him as well to use the HQ buildup function. I've seen him combine HQ buildup with air resupply on Blau to great effect.

    quote:


    When your opponent pulls back most of his units, like notenome's doing, you're facing the odd reality that 1942 and perhaps even 1943 will be more problematic for the Soviets than 1941. When the 1942 summer offensive starts, my mobile units should be able to pocket substantial enemy forces again, unless he places his units in a checkerboard on the last mud turns (not a bad idea as it would again essentially nullify Axis mobility). He's trading terrain for being able to keep units intact, and as Axis logistics inevitably break down with or without stiff Soviet resistance, the difference in the amount of terrain I can capture between a game where the Soviet player fights or runs away shouldn't be too substantial. The main difference will be much lower Soviet losses when the Soviet player runs away.


    Indeed, the goal of the Soviet player in 1941 is to preserve the RKK and the eventual collapse of the Axis supply network is perhaps a fact. But one shouldn't forgo other goals like preserving Soviet industry and rail network integrity or getting enough victories to get some units into Guard status.

    As a defender the decision whether to withdraw or to stand and fight relies heavily on the perception of the ratio between opposing forces. If you see a huge panzer phalanx advancing towards a line of 1941 Soviet units you need to be either very ballsy or very silly to think you'll be stopping it cold dead.

    Perhaps your moves - once he realized that you had concentrated your mechanized forces on the axis Rovno - Kiev - have become too obvious. Switching the axis of advance unexpectedly might lead him to make the wrong decision between run or fight.

    Maybe it's too late to conceal your next move in the South, but in AGN something which might work, could be to pretend that you haven't pulled back the panzers. I think it would make sense to keep a PzDiv and a MotDiv, behind your lines, broken down into regiments, to give him the impression that the panzertruppen are still there, only that waiting for the infantry to achieve a breakthrough...


    (in reply to ComradeP)
    Post #: 53
    RE: Turn 5 - 1/5/2011 5:13:37 PM   
    ComradeP

     

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    quote:

    In my game I pulled out of the Pripyat marshes as fast as I could. The German cavalry division handles that terrain pretty well I hadn't anything able to counter that. The terrain is very good for defense, but it's rendered irrelevant because of the german advance on both flanks. When it gets isolated, any units you have in there won't get anywhere.


    You can stage cavalry raids from there, but like you say you do have to get out of dodge quickly when the flanks are folding.

    quote:

    Are you finding air resupply to be ineffective? My opponent has been so far able to keep panzers in prime operational condition through that - to my dismay. I've been reinforcing IAD squadrons all along the front line to hinder that.


    It's quite effective, but I had expected more from being fairly close to a rail line as well as being resupply by air. Air supply gets me about 50% fuel together with what I get during the logistics phase.

    I have little reasons to use HQ buildup at this point. The Axis motorpool is strained enough as is.

    quote:

    Perhaps your moves - once he realized that you had concentrated your mechanized forces on the axis Rovno - Kiev - have become too obvious. Switching the axis of advance unexpectedly might lead him to make the wrong decision between run or fight.


    It's difficult to hide your intentions in the 1941 campaign. After all: you're mostly pushing east, with the variable thing being how many troops you commit to a certain area. The other summer campaigns are usually much less predictable.

    < Message edited by ComradeP -- 1/5/2011 5:14:34 PM >

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    Post #: 54
    RE: Turn 5 - 1/5/2011 5:26:30 PM   
    BletchleyGeek


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    From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
    Status: offline     		Thank you again for your answers :)

    However, I think that trying to mislead your opponent into thinking he's still facing a PzGrp is worth a shot. If he doesn't identify your move, he will perhaps stay a bit too long on the bridge between the Dvina and the Dnepr. More so if he's feeling a bit confident right now about handling the mechanized forces you have in the area.

    Anyways, good luck!

    (in reply to ComradeP)
    Post #: 55
    RE: Turn 5 - 1/5/2011 9:44:16 PM   
    ComradeP

     

    Posts: 7192
    Joined: 9/17/2009
    Status: offline     		Currently playing turn 6.

    The most notable event thus far is this attack against an isolated unit. notenome dropped supply on it on his turn which seems to have completely nullified the isolation penalties for the moment.

    Note that this is an attack on an isolated unit, normally attacks are even worse in swamps.




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    (in reply to BletchleyGeek)
    Post #: 56
    RE: Turn 5 - 1/5/2011 9:54:05 PM   
    ComradeP

     

    Posts: 7192
    Joined: 9/17/2009
    Status: offline     		And another one against a normally supplied unit, with an enormous increase in Soviet CV. The system is doing an excellent job with holding back AGN.






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    (in reply to ComradeP)
    Post #: 57
    RE: Turn 5 - 1/5/2011 10:09:29 PM   
    randallw

     

    Posts: 2057
    Joined: 9/2/2010
    Status: offline     		I'm shocked that only one of those I-16s was a casualty.

    (in reply to ComradeP)
    Post #: 58
    RE: Turn 5 - 1/5/2011 11:12:00 PM   
    ComradeP

     

    Posts: 7192
    Joined: 9/17/2009
    Status: offline     		Air to air combat is currently broken and is being worked on. It seems that after the last patch, which was supposed to fix the issue, even more was broken.

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    (in reply to randallw)
    Post #: 59
    RE: Turn 5 - 1/6/2011 6:53:49 AM   
    Speedysteve

     

    Posts: 15998
    Joined: 9/11/2001
    From: Reading, England
    Status: offline     		Agreed on A2A....the swamps seem to be having too much of an effect on Land combat as well IMO.

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    (in reply to ComradeP)
    Post #: 60
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