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RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/5/2011 6:39:48 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

I have no idea what half of you are talking about as it has no relationship to my original post.   
 
I have no problem with fuel in the economy.  I haven't had a problem with the automated part of my fuel management, just the micromanagement of fuel on manual controlled ships.  To help clear the air; below are some situations which annoy the hell out of me,
 
1.  Assign a warship to guard a debris field.   Enemy construction ship jumps in... assign warship to attack.  Second construction ship jumps in.  Warship destroys first construction ship and then jumps to refuel with plenty of fuel still on board to have destroyed the second constructor. 
 
2.  Assign warship to kill a kraken swarm.  Warship jumps in kills one and then jumps out to refuel.
 
3. Assign to a constructor to jump into a system which I don't have any other ships in and the Ancient Guardian has built several bases to see what is available.  The constructor jumps in and then immediately jumps out to refuel.
 
etc, etc.
 
I won't even touch the problems with trying to have a fleet with multiple ship class as it is almost impossible to run.
 
My solution to this micromanagement pain in the ass is to have fuel bubbles.   If you are in the bubble you have fuel period and anything outside of the bubble you don't have to worry about because you can't travel to.  Think MO2's range.  I really think it would help the AI out by forcing it to concentrate and prevent you from completing the original storyline in only a few years.  It would also prevent you from grabbing all of the choice spots early and require you to build supply lines e.g. remember outposts? 


I understood you perfectly well, thats exactly why I said you should not criticise a feature before you understand it.

Perhaps I was not clear enough on the implications of your proposal which you seem to be missing:

Fuel IS a part of the economic system, theres no "I can live with fuel, but only in the economy" option because it only
gets consumed by devices with a reactor.
What makes it interesting and one of the best features, is that the consumption is as often player driven as AI driven, so does not increase with a
steady pace like most other raw materials, but gets used with a large gulp and you have to enable your economy to
compensate/prepare for it.
Thats part of the fun. And part of the planning ahead.

The whole ship design is centered on reactors consuming fuel to produce energy. Without that a major part of the ship design would
lose its basic concept which is a mission related balance between fuel capacity and fuel consumption, and based on that, energy
generation and its distribution to the ships´systems.

Half of the research tree is centered on providing better means of fuel storage, more efficient use of fuel relative to energy output and
alternative means of providing energy, or more efficient use of that energy.

So: By removing fuel from its current purpose you would not only adress your "issue" but wreck part of the economy, research, and ship design
as they are intended as a game concept.

I thought that was obvious but seems I was wrong.


As for the rest of your post, you seem to be a micromanager. I understand that well because usually I am too.
But in this game micromanagement down to a certain level is simply the wrong approach.

Every single point you make is either related to micromanaging something you should not - or don´t have to, failing to provide
logistics for the operations you deem neccesary, using ship designs on missions they were not designed for, or operating
at ranges from your bases which are not suited for you current technology level for extended time periods.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 1/5/2011 7:39:01 AM >

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Post #: 91
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/5/2011 6:15:16 PM   
cmdrnarrain

 

Posts: 89
Joined: 4/21/2010
Status: offline 		Actually, as has been posted several times fuel really isn't a problem in the economy for just about all of the players.

I disagree with just about everything you just said,

1. Fuel storage isn't a really problem as the addition of acouple of tanks allows you to travel the entire map
2. Better reactors is for more power to shoot those high end guns

Not having to refuel wouldn't wreck anything but your agrument.

I don't know but killing kraken swarms around a debris field seems like something I need to mircomanage.  Also chasing away other construstors from debris field is the main reason for me to start a war.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 92
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/5/2011 11:31:32 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

Twisting the point doesn't make for a sound agrument.


There isn't a sound argument to begin with.

I'm sorry but... "I find this aspect of the game annoying and demand it be removed" is not a sound argument. I find space monsters to be totally unbelievable and irritating, yet I'm not in here demanding that Elliot remove that aspect of the game...some people completely enjoy fighting the monsters, just like I completely enjoy the fuel system and the additional challenges it presents.

You can not please everyone all the time, it is statistically impossible.


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Post #: 93
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/6/2011 12:07:34 AM   
Pipewrench


Posts: 453
Joined: 1/5/2010
Status: offline 		cmdrnarrain

with your first point,

constructors are not military ships otherwise they would start wars. You might of attacked one but unless you directly tell your military to attack it will not. When at war all bets are off.

to your second point, the warship looks at odds and if it feels it is going to lose, and i mean bad, it retreats.Pirates excluded, unless of course it was low on fuel?.

3rd point, so you want your constructor to build in another empires system and ruin relations? I think that is WAD.


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Post #: 94
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/6/2011 10:39:35 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain
I disagree with just about everything you just said,


A fact that thankfully stands a rather low chance to impact any patch developement process, so I am pretty sure can live with it.


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Post #: 95
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/6/2011 4:13:52 PM   
cmdrnarrain

 

Posts: 89
Joined: 4/21/2010
Status: offline 		 
I make no such demands on fuel.  It is a lot less annoying then it has been in the past, but still annoying.  I'm just pointing out a fact.

If I were to make a demand it would be to stop having my empire rebel every time I decide to blow-up a planet or nuke one into the dark ages.  That is a game stopper, fuel is just annoying, but I think supply bubbles would have a host of additional benefits, especially in concentrating the AI in a smaller area instead building empires which are indefensible.
 
You can turn space monsters off.  Those that remain, well... just think of them as bio-organic ships left to defend relics of past empires instead of as "space monsters".  Oops, I slipped into same sad agruments most of you had made why the current fuel system is so great.  I apologize.  

Pipewrench - ?WAD? sorry my net lingo is at an all time low.  

Note: my snotty comments are solely directed at my fellow posters,  It lightens my day and not at the developers of this great game.  I just find it annoying when my ships don't do what I ask them to do and I believe it is because of the fuel system.  

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 96
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/6/2011 4:19:15 PM   
Tacit_Exit


Posts: 82
Joined: 4/12/2010
Status: offline 		Fuel is cool.

That is all.

(in reply to cmdrnarrain)
Post #: 97
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/6/2011 5:04:59 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

 
I make no such demands on fuel.  It is a lot less annoying then it has been in the past, but still annoying.  I'm just pointing out a fact.

If I were to make a demand it would be to stop having my empire rebel every time I decide to blow-up a planet or nuke one into the dark ages.  That is a game stopper, fuel is just annoying, but I think supply bubbles would have a host of additional benefits, especially in concentrating the AI in a smaller area instead building empires which are indefensible.
 
You can turn space monsters off.  Those that remain, well... just think of them as bio-organic ships left to defend relics of past empires instead of as "space monsters".  Oops, I slipped into same sad agruments most of you had made why the current fuel system is so great.  I apologize.  

Pipewrench - ?WAD? sorry my net lingo is at an all time low.  

Note: my snotty comments are solely directed at my fellow posters,  It lightens my day and not at the developers of this great game.  I just find it annoying when my ships don't do what I ask them to do and I believe it is because of the fuel system.  


So, your just a garden variety troll...nice.

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Post #: 98
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/6/2011 5:40:09 PM   
cmdrnarrain

 

Posts: 89
Joined: 4/21/2010
Status: offline 		Acctually, I return snork for snork.  Name calling is trolling.  I don't believe I have called anyone names.  Did you?

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Post #: 99
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/6/2011 6:59:42 PM   
Lord_Astraios

 

Posts: 72
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		You mean the Norse Troll or the Internet Troll???

Back to topic...  LEts propose this,  and let the developers decide,  at start where the sliders are at,  have a slider in which it says:
1 - None,  NO fuel needed
2 - Easy, ships only use 50% less fuel than normal. Hybrid ships.
3 - Normal,  Standard as we all play it now.
4 - Fuel Hogger,  ships MPG is 3 miles per gallon,  your polluting the galaxy!

Or ,  i havent played the whole game appart from seeing all the galaxy already in my running game, but i havent researched everything so i dont know if this tech is there,  but get a last level tech to be a reactor that uses a lot less fuel.


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Post #: 100
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/6/2011 9:01:40 PM   
Data


Posts: 3909
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline 		this combined with newer fuel cells that store more fuel, energy collectors for static energy....the game has plenty of solutions for this

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Post #: 101
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/6/2011 9:27:36 PM   
cmdrnarrain

 

Posts: 89
Joined: 4/21/2010
Status: offline 		I don't think a slider is the answer to this problem.  The short version is that I find it annoying when my ships don't do what I want them to do.  Maybe a button to shoot the captain and replace him with someone who will let his tanks run dry to get the job done.  A sorta of do it or else button, just kidding. 

I do believe current fuel system needs to be reviewed, old hands will find work arounds... new players will just quit.

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Post #: 102
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/6/2011 10:31:59 PM   
Data


Posts: 3909
Joined: 1/3/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

I do believe current fuel system needs to be reviewed, old hands will find work arounds... new players will just quit.


I'm a new player and I'm loving it. I'm not new to 4x games, maybe this has something to do with it, but searching through this forum I see many examples of new players that had a problem with fuel management.....I still see them on the forum, loving the game.

Anyway, 4x games and DW in particular are not supposed to be that easy...maybe this is way we are a niche now; but that's not a limitation of us and certainly not of DW.

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Post #: 103
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/6/2011 10:50:54 PM   
Lord_Astraios

 

Posts: 72
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		Try the Empire setting and set the fleet attack setting for refuel to 0 and see what happens,  i havent tried it since i have my ships to refuel when tanks go at 25%.

< Message edited by Lord_Astraios -- 1/7/2011 12:06:29 PM >

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*That* is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and studying nebulae, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence.

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Post #: 104
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/7/2011 3:40:02 AM   
currierm

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 9/9/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

I have no idea what half of you are talking about as it has no relationship to my original post.   
 
I have no problem with fuel in the economy.  I haven't had a problem with the automated part of my fuel management, just the micromanagement of fuel on manual controlled ships.  To help clear the air; below are some situations which annoy the hell out of me,
 
1.  Assign a warship to guard a debris field.   Enemy construction ship jumps in... assign warship to attack.  Second construction ship jumps in.  Warship destroys first construction ship and then jumps to refuel with plenty of fuel still on board to have destroyed the second constructor. 
 
2.  Assign warship to kill a kraken swarm.  Warship jumps in kills one and then jumps out to refuel.
 
3. Assign to a constructor to jump into a system which I don't have any other ships in and the Ancient Guardian has built several bases to see what is available.  The constructor jumps in and then immediately jumps out to refuel.
 
etc, etc.
 
I won't even touch the problems with trying to have a fleet with multiple ship class as it is almost impossible to run.
 
My solution to this micromanagement pain in the ass is to have fuel bubbles.   If you are in the bubble you have fuel period and anything outside of the bubble you don't have to worry about because you can't travel to.  Think MO2's range.  I really think it would help the AI out by forcing it to concentrate and prevent you from completing the original storyline in only a few years.  It would also prevent you from grabbing all of the choice spots early and require you to build supply lines e.g. remember outposts? 


One general point: an interesting thread. IMO, DW is a very good game, and has the potential to be great. If it has a weakness- it is the complexity and learning curve. I don't know that I'd simplify this part of it, but it's interesting thing to think about.

I've had issues roughly similar to this, although not that frequently. Constructors are one place I see it- you clear a debris field of Kaltors and then you're repairing ships and the constructors have to jump out periodically to refuel. A similar thing can happen with patrol ships, especially on the edges of your empire. Probably the most annoying part is when you've got an incoming enemy attack and you want to supplement your defense fleets with some frigates/escorts that were on patrol duty and the like. There's a good chance that half of them will be too low on fuel to stick around for a significant part of the fight. I give my frigate designs around 200 fuel for partly this reason.

Generally, I think fuel makes for some interesting challenges. But it does create more work and I can see how not everyone would enjoy that part of the game. IMO, key things to help are:

  • Solar collectors, especially on attack/fleet ships.
  • Give attack ships a proportional amount of fuel. For example, 250 or so on destroyers, 350 on cruisers and more on capital. Ships with energy efficient weapons (missiles and some beams) need less energy than torpedo or area effect weapons. Add an extra tank or two for high energy burn ships. This keeps the operational lifespan about the same for me.
  • Build lots of gas mining stations and do so quickly when you push into a new area.
  • Have a resupply ship when you are making a deep push into enemy territory. Although, with collectors, I can usually manage without when I'm doing a slower system by system takeover.

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Post #: 105
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/7/2011 1:44:49 PM   
OJsDad


Posts: 35
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline 		I'm new to the game, and still learning, fuel is one of the things I'm trying to get my hear around. However, reading this thread has helped a lot. This is what I have learned;

1. Put Solar Collectors on all military ships. When they are in a system and awaiting further orders, they will not consume their fuel for energy, the solar collector will supplement the energy need. That will explain my issues with ships running out of fuel while in orbit of a space port.

2. Resupply ships. I thought you could send a resupply ship to a system, and as long as it has plenty of fuel on board, it could be used to fuel other ships. So I need to take a resupply ship, and deploy it to a

A couple of off topic points, but related to what has been discussed here;

1. Space ports. Someone gave a design example of what they put in a space port. I've found that you can only build one space port at each planet. Do you build a smaller space port and then upgrade the design with newer features and additional components, thus allowing you to retrofit the existing space port, or do you scrap the existing space port and build new, thus losing a space port at that planet until the new one is done.

2. Do you allow your contruction ships to be automatted or do you keep control of them. Or, as a third option, allow some to be automated and some under your control.

Maybe just me, but perhaps a more detailed explanation on the fuel economy in the manual or the galactopedia would help.

3. Ships can refuel at gas mining stations, correct? If correct, do you add more gas collectors, docks and even construction yards so fleets can use them?

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Post #: 106
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/7/2011 1:57:05 PM   
Data


Posts: 3909
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline 		1) you don't need to scrap it, just design a new version and retrofit to it

2) all of these options, depending on priorities

3) no, because ships do not refuel only there. If you have a dedicated or strategically placed one then you could create a particular design for it with more of everything but I haven't done it so far

< Message edited by Data -- 1/7/2011 3:44:35 PM >

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Post #: 107
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/7/2011 3:41:48 PM   
Lord_Astraios

 

Posts: 72
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		I think i understand cmdrnarrain now,  sure sliders wont work depending on the situation but i know what you mean,  i havent searched for it to change the option but my problem is similar but not with fuel,  plus i suggest him to go to the fleet settings at the empire options in the main options at the main options of the game and change the percentage to 0% for refuel ships,  but my similar situation is in orders to attack a hostile ship,  even i sent the settings in the same place to 3:1 to flee,  i get a bigger enemy ship but lesser in design and for unknown and i'm only like 5 hit point less or more than the enemy and all of the sudden the AI of my ship decide to flee,  i tell it to attack again,  then seconds later it flees again.  I have to tell and click on the enemy various times to attack it until its destroyed.

Now i think this is not an issue of fuel,  is mostly an issue of the AI decisions for those situations,  and i knot know of if setting the game to 0% will tell the AI not to refuel,  never.  The devs should see that or Erik or someone that knows tell us if setting it at 0% in the empire settings will do that.


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*That* is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and studying nebulae, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence.

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Post #: 108
RE: Get rid of fuel - 1/7/2011 5:04:37 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Ah now I get it.
You mean the ships flee because they are exactly at the fuel limit set?

If this is the case then I guess I know what the problem is. The refuel @ X command is pobably entered as a "queue next mission" command.
So if a target gets destroyed it does not switch to the next target but leaves to refuel although another target is present.

Could be solved by adding a check for enemy targets, and attack orders overriding the refuel command. But that could cost processing power to
implement I guess when theres 50000 ships in the galaxy.




< Message edited by LoBaron -- 1/7/2011 5:07:08 PM >

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