Get rid of fuel (Full Version)

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cmdrnarrain -> Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 4:51:28 PM)

Get rid of fuel.

Personally, I find fuel to be the most annoying aspect of an otherwide outstanding game. It is one of those ideas that look great on paper but just plain does work for a game of this complexity.

With a little experience the first thing that everyone does is add a bunch of fuel tanks to their construstion ships and explorers. Which pretty much negates the impact of fuel on everything but your ability to attack.

Not being able to attack is annoying. Having to mircomanage fuel is annoying. I know alot of improvememts have been made, but it is the overall system that doesn't work.

The alternative would be range, each planet and/or base serves as fueling point which allows your ships to move freely within its bubble. Improved fuel tanks expand that bubble. Economics could remain the same as the ships are still using fuel. The story plot would improve because of instead of completing the story in a couple of years you would have to build way points to get to each story point. Warfare would be much more interesting too.




Sithuk -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 5:11:12 PM)

I'm finding micro-managing fuel to be an irritating issue too. Highly frustrating when 15+ ship fleets are not able to refuel.

I'm thinking about deploying special "gas collection" bases around gas giants with huge cargo holds that I can send my attack fleets to re-fuel. They'll have to have 20 docking bays to turn around a fleet quickly. I'm not sure the private economy won't bleed them dry before my Attack Fleets arrive though.



BigWolfChris -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 5:12:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

The alternative would be range, each planet and/or base serves as fueling point which allows your ships to move freely within its bubble. Improved fuel tanks expand that bubble. Economics could remain the same as the ships are still using fuel. The story plot would improve because of instead of completing the story in a couple of years you would have to build way points to get to each story point. Warfare would be much more interesting too.




So, effectively the GalCiv 2 range model?
A little too simple for my personal taste

As for the "add a bunch of fuel tanks"
Remember, you do this at the expense of speed and cost
I will rarely have more than 2 tanks to any design (only capital ships will have more), allowing me to keep ships faster and cheaper with the trade off of less range (something I much prefer, even the GalCiv2 model causes range to become useless in a tiny space of time)

Personally I like the DW method, as it promotes building strategic fuel stations/planets and using actual strategy for warfare



alexalexuk -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 5:20:39 PM)

no



BigWolfChris -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 5:21:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

I'm finding micro-managing fuel to be an irritating issue too. Highly frustrating when 15+ ship fleets are not able to refuel.

I'm thinking about deploying special "gas collection" bases around gas giants with huge cargo holds that I can send my attack fleets to re-fuel. They'll have to have 20 docking bays to turn around a fleet quickly. I'm not sure the private economy won't bleed them dry before my Attack Fleets arrive though.


You must be doing something wrong if a 15 ship fleet is struggling to remain fueled

I will have larger ports and gas mining stations placed in certain systems and nebulae to ensure fuel is freely available
My large space port has 32 docking bays and 10 construction yards, meaning 22 bays will always be free to fuelling/repairing/retrofitting
I will have a half a dozen of these located throughout my empire
If I really need, I will have construct a super port with 60+ bays

Also, don't restrict yourself to one design per role, I have two sizes of gas mining stations for each gas reactor
Small size for basic operations, and large ones for nebulae and gas giants in areas that are close to fleets needing refuelling
And each large design will be placed to a planet/nebulae that provides their fuel (so these bases inside nebulae will remain operational)

If you're struggling with fuelling, changing your strategy might be the solution



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 5:29:33 PM)

Yes having to plan and strategize is really bad for a strategy game.



madflava13 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 5:33:07 PM)

I respectfully disagree. I'm really enjoying that aspect of the game. Having to wait on my ships to fuel before an attack or expansion adds a sense of realism to the game for me. Although I'm an avid WITP-AE player, so maybe I'm just crazy like that.



lordxorn -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 5:52:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

Get rid of fuel.

Personally, I find fuel to be the most annoying aspect of an otherwide outstanding game. It is one of those ideas that look great on paper but just plain does work for a game of this complexity.

With a little experience the first thing that everyone does is add a bunch of fuel tanks to their construstion ships and explorers. Which pretty much negates the impact of fuel on everything but your ability to attack.

Not being able to attack is annoying. Having to mircomanage fuel is annoying. I know alot of improvememts have been made, but it is the overall system that doesn't work.

The alternative would be range, each planet and/or base serves as fueling point which allows your ships to move freely within its bubble. Improved fuel tanks expand that bubble. Economics could remain the same as the ships are still using fuel. The story plot would improve because of instead of completing the story in a couple of years you would have to build way points to get to each story point. Warfare would be much more interesting too.




You argument fell apart when you suggested to change it to a system where you ships can only travel a certain max range. That idea can certainly fall under your argument that it sounds good on paper but doesn't work for a complex game. Fuel adds an extra element of strategy I will explain more below.

I like the idea of fuel because you have to plan you invasions carefully, much like in the real world. If there is a target outside reach of your fleets, you have setup a refueling operation to make it viable. (Elliot has been diligently squashing bugs in the department.) You can also pull a do little raid, and just have you ships limp back. You can also foster diplomatic relationships to have a refueling agreement which will extend your range.

The idea of range would just simplify things and not really add anything more to the game. A solution would be to simply add a No Fuel checkbox for those that don't want to micromanage this aspect. [:)]

Also make sure you put an energy collector on every ship. There are ways to minimize the micromanagement aspect of fueling.



cmdrnarrain -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 5:56:10 PM)

Screw realism.  Fuel is annoying and forcing players to mircomanage individual ships/fleets.   



alexalexuk -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 6:20:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

Screw realism.  Fuel is annoying and forcing players to mircomanage individual ships/fleets.   


clicking on one button is too much?

ensuring your planets have enough fuel is too hard?






Setekh -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 6:31:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

Screw realism.  Fuel is annoying and forcing players to mircomanage individual ships/fleets.   


Can't tell if troll...


There's nothing wrong with the fuel aspect of the game, leave it alone.



hewwo -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 6:43:24 PM)

it took a while for me to get used to fuel in DW. I agree that it could probably be implemented a whole lot user friendlier. I love having it in the game though!!



diablo1 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 7:00:25 PM)

quote:

but just plain does work for a game of this complexity.


You want to get rid of something that "just plain DOES work?" why if it works?



diablo1 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 7:03:30 PM)

See if you were playing X3:Universe you wouldn't have these issues with fuel because it's automatic in X3. You still have to "pay" for the fuel you need but you sure don't have to micromanage it. There's mods made if you need a rapid supply ship as well that will resupply missles and such. You just click on the fleet you need resupplied and the littel transport ship will get to work and continue until finished or destroyed.



elmo3 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 7:04:33 PM)

I like having fuel in the game and have not felt the need to micromanage it.  Some oversight is needed but that is part of the strategy of managing a large empire.  Keep it please.



Shark7 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 7:11:30 PM)

I love the fuel aspect. You have to think and plan strategically because of it, rather than just colonizing and building haphazardly. You actually have to consider if new planets are defendable given the fuel range and availabily to fuel.

Fuel needs to stay.



nammafia -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 7:38:43 PM)

Keep the fuel.  Shrink the ship ranges.  Think ahead is part of strategy game.  What's wrong with deploying resupply ships for your fleets!?



Setekh -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 7:49:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

See if you were playing X3:Universe you wouldn't have these issues with fuel because it's automatic in X3. You still have to "pay" for the fuel you need but you sure don't have to micromanage it. There's mods made if you need a rapid supply ship as well that will resupply missles and such. You just click on the fleet you need resupplied and the littel transport ship will get to work and continue until finished or destroyed.


I wish you'd stop derailing every single topic with your X3 fanboyism, it really is getting old.

People like and do things differently, deal with it.



BigWolfChris -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 8:02:46 PM)

X3 doesn't have a fuel system, except for jumpdrives, and they sure as hell aren't "automatic" hence the requests for energy-free jumpdrives in the mods forums over at egosoft

The fuel system is something that adds to the strategy of DW
Though, ironically, I remember the complaints of how easy it is to build designs allowing you get anywhere straight from the start (something I do agree with)



PDiFolco -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 8:14:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nammafia

Keep the fuel.  Shrink the ship ranges.  Think ahead is part of strategy game.  What's wrong with deploying resupply ships for your fleets!?

Hmmm, I just can't understand how it's supposed to work, I never succeeded "deploying" one to allow refueling of the fleet... [&:]



caerr -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 8:23:16 PM)

Once you send the resupply ship to an object that has fuel type as a resource, a context menu should appear with the option to deploy.

Keep in mind that there are several fuel types and the one that your ships use depends on the reactor type. You can find it in your ship design screen. A good way to scout for fuel is to click on a system star which will display all the resources in the system.



cmdrnarrain -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 8:45:39 PM)

My agrument is that the current fuel system is annoying, very very annoying.  If you fail to see the logic in it there is nothing I can do to help.
 
This game has hundreds of world, but I reduced to mircomanaging the fuel of every ship in my fleet so that they can be counted on do what they are suppose to do when I want them to do it.
 
I fail to see the difference between adding a refueling ship to every fleet as opposed to supply bubbles.  Except that maybe I wouldn't have to worry about my fleet's destoryers running out of fuel before my crusiers because if they were in supply they would all have fuel.  Or is the solution an all capital ship fleet with exactly the same fuel amounts....er wait isn't that the way it currently works?
 
Reduce the fuel ranges... sound just like supply bubbles to me, but again I wouldn't have to worry if they have fuel or not because if they were in the bubble they would automatically.     
 
Your too lazy to load your own troops, but apparently you just love filling up each and every ship so it will go where it is suppose to and do what you want it to do.



WoodMan -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 9:10:17 PM)

Hmm, to be honest I like fuel the way it is.  I don't know where all this micromanaging spiel comes from, because you certainly aren't the only person who feels this way cmd.

I've never found myself micromanaging fuel, unless you and me have a different definition of micromanaging.  You send your fleet to refuel before sending it on a mission and everything should be fine.  To do this all you need to do is click the fuel sign the toolbar below the info window with the fleet selected, then right crtl-right click whatever it was you wanted them to do, queue next mission, move here. 

That is a planned attack, on defence, well thats all part of the game, maybe you are caught unawares and have to respond with whatever is in the area, ships further away and low on fuel might not make it to the battle in time, but thats more exciting IMO.



Sithuk -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 9:29:36 PM)

Many thanks BigWolf. I was going to try and create the "super fuel depots" and position them strategically but haven't got to that point in today's game yet. Its good to know that it'll work fine. Cheers for the reminder to put plenty of docking bays on it. Any tips for the number of gas extractors and cargo capacity? I'll need something to handle 30 ship fleet ideally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigWolf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

I'm finding micro-managing fuel to be an irritating issue too. Highly frustrating when 15+ ship fleets are not able to refuel.

I'm thinking about deploying special "gas collection" bases around gas giants with huge cargo holds that I can send my attack fleets to re-fuel. They'll have to have 20 docking bays to turn around a fleet quickly. I'm not sure the private economy won't bleed them dry before my Attack Fleets arrive though.


You must be doing something wrong if a 15 ship fleet is struggling to remain fueled

I will have larger ports and gas mining stations placed in certain systems and nebulae to ensure fuel is freely available
My large space port has 32 docking bays and 10 construction yards, meaning 22 bays will always be free to fuelling/repairing/retrofitting
I will have a half a dozen of these located throughout my empire
If I really need, I will have construct a super port with 60+ bays

Also, don't restrict yourself to one design per role, I have two sizes of gas mining stations for each gas reactor
Small size for basic operations, and large ones for nebulae and gas giants in areas that are close to fleets needing refuelling
And each large design will be placed to a planet/nebulae that provides their fuel (so these bases inside nebulae will remain operational)

If you're struggling with fuelling, changing your strategy might be the solution




Sabin Stargem -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 9:40:57 PM)

I would like to have an visual aid for determining how much range I am getting from my ship's fuel reserves. Perhaps a map of the galaxy, with a circle emanating from the center that shows how far the ship can go before living on fumes? It would certainly help me with figuring out how many I should put on my ship, since I don't have a clue of what is ideal.



caerr -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 9:48:08 PM)

You do have a circle, however it's typically so big that you can't see it. [:D] There really is no upper limit to how much fuel you want on your ships, the more the better. The challenge lies in balancing the ship for the duties you want it to do.



sabre1 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 9:53:25 PM)

Sword of the Stars has fuel limitations too. I like having fuel issues, it's more "realistic." [:'(]



blastpop -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 10:08:21 PM)

I think the solution is to have an option at game start to allow a player to choose whether they want to use fuel as an option. That way folks can choose to play the game that best fits their style.




diablo1 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 10:13:56 PM)

quote:

People like and do things differently, deal with it.


Perhaps you should practice what you preach, deal with it. [:)]

Also notice my sig?



diablo1 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/29/2010 10:16:05 PM)

quote:

X3 doesn't have a fuel system, except for jumpdrives,


I guess that's why energy cell platforms are needed to be STRATEGICALLY placed all around the universe? Universal traders require energy because they use the jumpdrives "all the time". pfft



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