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RE: Encirclement Tips

 
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RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/10/2011 11:32:13 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		So this pocket I created in my current game is useless as the SU unit will move into the hex with the x?




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Post #: 31
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/10/2011 11:46:41 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		"Useless" as in: supply will be restored, yes, but the units in it will probably be doomed after your next turn as they won't be going anywhere even though their supply will be restored. The Soviets can also move that motorized division in the bottom of the screenshot two hexes to the west and the NKVD regiment that is currently isolated 1 hex to the south to, combined with the Tank division moving to the position you marked, isolate your mobile forces.

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Post #: 32
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/10/2011 11:51:40 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

I suspect that what happens is that the hexes in question only become German-owned at the end of the SOVIET move, which contradicts the manual statement that it changes ownership at the end of the phasing player's move.


No, it changes ownership at the end of the phasing player's move. You pay an MP cost as if it's an enemy hex for the duration of your turn if you turn it into a "pending" friendly hex. Non-combat units can move in, but they pay (at least) an entering enemy hex MP cost ("at least" as in: if the enemy has ZOC over the hex, the MP cost will be even higher).

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Post #: 33
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/11/2011 12:44:29 AM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		Looks like the pocket held,wasnt doing this is previous GC,but this time Im playing on easy,




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Post #: 34
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/11/2011 1:22:27 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		Here is where I *THINK* the confusion between DLazov and Henri lies:

A hex you move into is owned by you as soon as you move into it.  It doesn't require you to wait till the end of the turn.

So the rifle division that would move 1 hex east-ward toward the river (refer to your Post 18 screen shot) will own the hex it moves in to.
Any Soviet unit that gets across the Berezina river into the town hex would own that immediately as well.  Thus, the encirclement would be gone.  NOTE, though, that while technically the escaping unit would be free of encirclement, it STILL would have suffered resupply problems between the END of your Axis turn and the start of the Soviet player's movement.  That's great, and reduces its combat power and movement allowance, and makes it basically unable to attack for a while.  But if you were to attack it immediately on your next turn, it could retreat/route.

The terminology associated with "conversion" and "pending friendly" applies to hexes that are within the zone of control of YOUR units AND not in the zone of control of enemy units.  Those 'convert' as you move, but they aren't fully owned until after the end of the turn.

If an Axis unit and a Soviet unit have ZOCs in an empty hex, control will never change unless one of the units move away (and take their ZOC with them out of the hex), OR a unit actually moves INTO the unoccupied hex.

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Post #: 35
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/11/2011 2:01:32 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		That tank division may not have had the MPs to make that move anyway, heading out of a ZOC into another one.

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Post #: 36
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/11/2011 1:10:17 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Units can always move at least one hex, even if they technically wouldn't have the MP's to move into the hex they're moving in as a first move (in which case they'll have 0 MP's left after moving 1 hex).

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Post #: 37
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/11/2011 4:45:37 PM   
pompack


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From: University Park, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51


quote:

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

If a unit moves into a hex it owns it regardless of hex ownership previously. A hex occupied is owned by the occupier. Empty hexes are a different story.


Previously you quoted the manual: "All combat units convert the hex they enter as they move into a PENDING friendly hex". And you said that a pending friendly hex only converts to ownership at the end of the phasing player move. Now you are saying that it becomes friendly to the phasing player IMMEDIATELY. Now i am more confused than ever...

To go back to my previous question: during an encirclement, two German infantry units leave one hex empty between them, none of the hexes in question being in a Soviet ZOC. From the manual quotation, I understand that this hex becomes German-owned at the end of the German move. During the Soviet move,a soviet unit from outside the pocket moves into the empty hex. According to the manual you quoted, this hex becomes a PENDING Soviet hex during the Soviet move, and therefore remains a German-owned hex for the duration of the Soviet move.

If this is true, the presence of the Soviet unit in no way helps Soviet units to escape during the same move.So a Soviet unit trying to escape fromthe pocket would have to pay the movement cost of entering a German-owned hex in a German ZOC, pay the same for entering the German-owned hex between the 2 German units, pay the same cost a third time to move out of the pocket into a German ZOC, then finally pay the cost of leaving an enemy ZOC.Clearly no early Soviet units would have the MPs to escape a pocket this way, so what am I missing?

I suspect that what happens is that the hexes in question only become German-owned at the end of the SOVIET move, which contradicts the manual statement that it changes ownership at the end of the phasing player's move.

Henri



Pending means pending. German sweeps by empty hex, it becomes pending TO GERMANS. It becomes friendly to the Germans at the end of the German phase. Then Russian moves into hex. Now it becomes pending to RUSSIANS. Before the Russian moved, Russians in the pocket were isolated; after the Russian moved they were not isolated. At the end of the Russian phase, the Germans see a relieved pocket with no isolated Russians.

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Post #: 38
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/11/2011 11:27:00 PM   
henri51


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

Pending means pending. German sweeps by empty hex, it becomes pending TO GERMANS. It becomes friendly to the Germans at the end of the German phase. Then Russian moves into hex. Now it becomes pending to RUSSIANS. Before the Russian moved, Russians in the pocket were isolated; after the Russian moved they were not isolated. At the end of the Russian phase, the Germans see a relieved pocket with no isolated Russians.


No, what the German sees is a pocket with no Russians inside!!!

You are saying that the hex in question only becomes Soviet-owned at the END of the Soviet move, AFTER the Soviet units in the pocket have moved. So how can the soviet units in the pocket escape the pocket BEFORE the pocket is opened? Some of the posters above have stated that the hex occupied by a Soviet unit IMMEDIATELY becomes soviet-owned, but this is not what the manual says.

What would make this more coherent would be that a hex occupied by a unit that stops moving IMMEDIATELY becomes owned by the phasing side, but this is not what the manual says (unless I missed something).

Henri

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Post #: 39
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/12/2011 12:04:00 AM   
pompack


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From: University Park, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

Pending means pending. German sweeps by empty hex, it becomes pending TO GERMANS. It becomes friendly to the Germans at the end of the German phase. Then Russian moves into hex. Now it becomes pending to RUSSIANS. Before the Russian moved, Russians in the pocket were isolated; after the Russian moved they were not isolated. At the end of the Russian phase, the Germans see a relieved pocket with no isolated Russians.


No, what the German sees is a pocket with no Russians inside!!!

You are saying that the hex in question only becomes Soviet-owned at the END of the Soviet move, AFTER the Soviet units in the pocket have moved. So how can the soviet units in the pocket escape the pocket BEFORE the pocket is opened? Some of the posters above have stated that the hex occupied by a Soviet unit IMMEDIATELY becomes soviet-owned, but this is not what the manual says.

What would make this more coherent would be that a hex occupied by a unit that stops moving IMMEDIATELY becomes owned by the phasing side, but this is not what the manual says (unless I missed something).

Henri


Try again: pending means the hex is friendly to you, hostile to your opponent but expensive to move into (in MP). When you own it, it is still friendly to you, hostile to your opponent, but no longer requires extra MP to enter.

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Post #: 40
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/12/2011 7:30:55 AM   
JS

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 12/31/2010
Status: offline 		I thought "pending" was just for hexes that you pass close to (within your ZOC), and not actually enter. Now you're saying that the hexes you actually enter also are just pending, they don't get converted to friendly immediately? This contradicts what people have said earlier in this thread, I think.

Could someone clear up the confusion please?

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Post #: 41
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/12/2011 1:37:16 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		We've tried to clear up the confusion a number of times, but people only seem to get more confused.

With hex control on, anything you see shaded in bright green or bright *hex type colour* is what you owned at the start of your turn. Those are friendly hexes. Everything shaded with a darker colour, but not red, is "pending". It will turn to your control after you hit end turn. Those hexes are still considered to be enemy hexes as far as the MP movement cost is concerned, but non-combat units can move through them normally, provided there are no enemy units next to the hex. Red shaded hexes are enemy hexes.

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Post #: 42
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/12/2011 2:10:52 PM   
henri51


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

We've tried to clear up the confusion a number of times, but people only seem to get more confused.

With hex control on, anything you see shaded in bright green or bright *hex type colour* is what you owned at the start of your turn. Those are friendly hexes. Everything shaded with a darker colour, but not red, is "pending". It will turn to your control after you hit end turn. Those hexes are still considered to be enemy hexes as far as the MP movement cost is concerned, but non-combat units can move through them normally, provided there are no enemy units next to the hex. Red shaded hexes are enemy hexes.


I am not trying to argue, just trying to understand. And thanks for trying to make me understand. The shading is useful for my move, but it is useless for the understanding of the Soviet move (playing against the AI), since I never see their move but only the RESULT of their move.So it is irrelevant for this discussion.Part of the confusion is that I am discussing playing against the AI whereas you are assuming pbem play.

From what you say, for purposes of getting out of a pocket, pending or no pending has no effect, since ownership and MP requirements for the phasing player only changes at the end of a move (friendly or otherwise). So when the Russian AI is moving (invisibly), whether or not he has pending hexes is irrelevant to getting out of the pocket.

This implies that as the Germans, if I close a pocket with pending hexes (say leaving one or 2 hexes between my encircling units), the Soviets cannot make it easier to leave the pocket by getting "pending hexes", i.e.by moving a unit from outside the pocket into an encircling hex adjacent to one of my encircling units.Any hex that becomes pending for the Russian will only change to Russian ownership at the end of the Russian move.

Assuming this is true, it leaves two questions: 1) How did the Russians get out of the pocket? 2) Does the intruding Russian unit cancel out my ZOC on the hex he is occupying, therefore allowing Russian units to enter that hex and leave it without paying any penalty? For purposes of discussion, suppose all clear terrain.

If (2) is true, if there were only one empty hex between my encircling units (now occupied by a Russian unit during the Russian move), a Russian escaping the pocket would still have to enter one of my ZOCs before entering the Russian-occupied hex, then enter another of my ZOCs as he leaves the Russian hex, then pay the cost of leaving an enemy ZOC as he gets away.This is a lot of points in addition to the points required to get to the edge of the pocket...

If there were 2 hexes between my encircling units, then an escaping Russian unit could get out without going through any of my ZOCs, but he would still have to pay the movement costs to get out of the pocket, and whatever the movement cost is to get over one of his own units that is in my ZOC.

For play against the AI, there have been previous discussions (which I did not understand) to the effect that the AI rules presume some kind of "simultaneous" movement that may or may not contradict the above description of what happens during the Russian move. Is that the problem here? Does the AI have some "special" rules that allow them to get out of the pocket more easily? If so, where is this in the manual?

Henri

< Message edited by henri51 -- 1/12/2011 2:11:31 PM >

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Post #: 43
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/12/2011 2:24:04 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
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Status: offline 		The AI magic moves shouldn't been removed in either the previous patch, or will be removed in the next.

quote:

Assuming this is true, it leaves two questions: 1) How did the Russians get out of the pocket? 2) Does the intruding Russian unit cancel out my ZOC on the hex he is occupying, therefore allowing Russian units to enter that hex and leave it without paying any penalty? For purposes of discussion, suppose all clear terrain.


Which pocket are we talking about?

ZOC is never cancelled out. If you place a unit next to an enemy unit and it's your turn, you'll feel the enemy ZOC. If it's the enemy turn, he'll feel yours.

Pending friendly hexes are friendly as far as the supply state of the unit (in supply or isolated) is concerned, which is how you restore (theoretical) supply to a pocket, making sure the units in the pocket are not isolated any longer.

As I said, pending hexes are still considered to be enemy as far as movement penalties are concerned, so in many cases the Soviets won't actually get out of pockets, as most of their units in 1941 can't move more than 2 hexes into enemy terrain, especially not with enemy ZOC covering the hexes.

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Post #: 44
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/12/2011 2:54:51 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

From what you say, for purposes of getting out of a pocket, pending or no pending has no effect, since ownership and MP requirements for the phasing player only changes at the end of a move (friendly or otherwise). So when the Russian AI is moving (invisibly), whether or not he has pending hexes is irrelevant to getting out of the pocket.


I believe your confusion is you are far too worried about the AI 'getting out of the pocket' instead of concerning yourself with ensuring it remains isolated throughout the entire Soviet turn. Isolation has to do with supply tracing, NOT movement.

ZOCs do not necessarily stop supply tracing, though they affect it in causing motor pool damage. Pending enemy controlled hexes absolutely DO stop supply tracing, just as pending friendly controlled hexes ALLOW supply tracing.

All the Soviet player has to do is get a string of pending friendly controlled hexes into the pocket and it is no longer a pocket. The units will not be isolated at the start of the Axis turn. This does not mean that they 'escaped' the pocket.

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Post #: 45
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/12/2011 3:03:03 PM   
henri51


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The AI magic moves shouldn't been removed in either the previous patch, or will be removed in the next.

quote:

Assuming this is true, it leaves two questions: 1) How did the Russians get out of the pocket? 2) Does the intruding Russian unit cancel out my ZOC on the hex he is occupying, therefore allowing Russian units to enter that hex and leave it without paying any penalty? For purposes of discussion, suppose all clear terrain.


Which pocket are we talking about?

ZOC is never cancelled out. If you place a unit next to an enemy unit and it's your turn, you'll feel the enemy ZOC. If it's the enemy turn, he'll feel yours.

Pending friendly hexes are friendly as far as the supply state of the unit (in supply or isolated) is concerned, which is how you restore (theoretical) supply to a pocket, making sure the units in the pocket are not isolated any longer.

As I said, pending hexes are still considered to be enemy as far as movement penalties are concerned, so in many cases the Soviets won't actually get out of pockets, as most of their units in 1941 can't move more than 2 hexes into enemy terrain, especially not with enemy ZOC covering the hexes.


OK this is helpful (I had missed the important difference between supply and movement penalty), but you did not answer the question about what happens to a ZOC hex when an enemy unit moves into it? Does the occupying unit immediately cancel the ZOC in the hex that he is occupying, so that units friendly to that unit pay no ZOC penalties when entering or leaving that hex?

And it is my guess that the "magic" AI moves out of pockets have not yet been fixed (at least not totally), because except for the first move, Soviets are still getting most of their units out of my pockets during their "hidden" phase.

Thx for the explanations.

Henri

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Post #: 46
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/12/2011 3:18:59 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

but you did not answer the question about what happens to a ZOC hex when an enemy unit moves into it? Does the occupying unit immediately cancel the ZOC in the hex that he is occupying, so that units friendly to that unit pay no ZOC penalties when entering or leaving that hex?


As I said: ZOC is never cancelled out.

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Post #: 47
RE: Encirclement Tips - 1/12/2011 3:43:36 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

And it is my guess that the "magic" AI moves out of pockets have not yet been fixed (at least not totally), because except for the first move, Soviets are still getting most of their units out of my pockets during their "hidden" phase.


I'd be very interested to see this in a before/after screenshot. I have zero problems with Russians escaping my pockets. Now they break them from time to time meaning I have to isolate again and wait another turn to kill them. But I've never seen a magic escape from a non-routed unit.

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