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RE: June 42 - 2/5/2011 2:53:53 AM

2ndACR

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Casualties turn 51

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RE: June 42 - 2/5/2011 2:54:57 AM

2ndACR

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And finally, for the numbers count. His manpower is scary, but not even 2 to 1 in tanks. Also air force is large.

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RE: June 42 - 2/5/2011 2:55:54 AM

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I need to do a leader wash out too. Seems I missed some replacements of leaders the computer did.

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Post #: 183

RE: June 42 - 2/5/2011 5:17:18 AM

2ndACR

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Turn 52

Okay, first success and advance. But it cost me a lot of casualties for it.

Stopped cold in the south with heavy losses. But his forts are down to level 2 now.

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RE: June 42 - 2/5/2011 5:18:37 AM

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OOOPS

He lost over 120 bombers in 2 air strikes. Here is a shot of 1 of them. Nice to see my CAP works.

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RE: June 42 - 2/5/2011 7:22:12 AM

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Bombing does not drop fort levels, since someone was sort of asking.

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RE: June 42 - 2/5/2011 8:31:33 PM

2ndACR

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Turn 53

I have had to commit my armor to break thru his lines. Did not want to do that, but had no choice. I have gotten thru the first set of level 4 forts in 2 locations. 1 up north and 1 down south. I will have to use them to kick another stack out of each and then I can bring in infantry stacks to widen that way I will have 9-12 divisions on each fort.

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RE: June 42 - 2/5/2011 8:33:52 PM

2ndACR

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Turn 53 Casualties.

Here is what it cost me to break thru his first row.

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RE: June 42 - 2/5/2011 10:31:50 PM

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Turn 54

The grind continues. Only my armor is making any progress at all against the level 4 forts. I have battered my way farther in the south. He pulled back between my 2 pincers last turn to hes next line of level 4 forts.

He has moved massive amounts of troops to the area, so now I just don't know if it can be done. And I had, from what I have seen, the most rested, full strength German army coming out of the blizzard. Of course, he just dug in. I almost think that is the way to go. Almost impossible to make any headway to get started again. I am going to waste my entire offensive just trying to crack his line.

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RE: June 42 - 2/5/2011 10:42:30 PM

Flaviusx

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Don't despair.

Soviet morale looks damned shaky; once they are out of their forts they're routing it seems. Not taking advantage of the blizzard to train up his units is going to hurt him.

You don't need to destroy an entire line to dislocate it, just enough to get at the succeeding line. And he can't replace those level 4 forts quickly.

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RE: June 42 - 2/5/2011 10:46:25 PM

cookie monster

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Looks like a difficult situation.

In a way he's got a good screw on.

He's attriting your most valuable units and can still maintain a solid line.

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RE: June 42 - 2/5/2011 10:47:55 PM

2ndACR

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That is true, just so disheartening watching my proud little guys take 3500+ casualties every attack. But they are routing, probably more from the 3 unit stack behind them so they are forced to rout.

I figure he has 3 more rows of level 4 forts at least in front of the southern force. Recon shows he has stripped forces from the north for the south. Only a 3 unit stack all along the northern front. But I lack the strength up there to even try to bust thru.

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RE: June 42 - 2/5/2011 11:17:13 PM

MrLongleg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

That is true, just so disheartening watching my proud little guys take 3500+ casualties every attack. But they are routing, probably more from the 3 unit stack behind them so they are forced to rout.

I figure he has 3 more rows of level 4 forts at least in front of the southern force. Recon shows he has stripped forces from the north for the south. Only a 3 unit stack all along the northern front. But I lack the strength up there to even try to bust thru.

I really believe that you are better off like that - otherwise you would have lost 1 million precious and experienced troops in the winter. You can afford some losses now.

As soon as you break through with two pincers he will have to retreat and than hunting season is opened, because those retreating units won't have much protection.

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RE: June 42 - 2/5/2011 11:49:06 PM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

That is true, just so disheartening watching my proud little guys take 3500+ casualties every attack. But they are routing, probably more from the 3 unit stack behind them so they are forced to rout.

I figure he has 3 more rows of level 4 forts at least in front of the southern force. Recon shows he has stripped forces from the north for the south. Only a 3 unit stack all along the northern front. But I lack the strength up there to even try to bust thru.

Your proud little guys aren't proud little guys anymore. They are pussies in lions clothes. It is totally stunning to me how permanently devastating the 41 winter is to German infantry. Is that really historical? I mean, there is NO FREAKING WAY that the Axis will ever duplicate the 42 offensive in this game. Not against a human. Not going to happen. Never.

Axis panzers are maneuver units. To do so, they need room. Axis infantry provides that. But only in 41. After that they are midwives in petticoats begging someone please open the door.

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 1:27:56 AM

randallw

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The game sure could use a big tweak, differentiating between green troops in the replacement/formation pool and experienced ones returning from being disabled.

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 1:39:41 AM

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Yes, it does appear so.

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 1:55:22 AM

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THAT is the key, I think. Not that the winter itself is so bad (it is, but it should be) but that the returning men all suffered brain-freeze as well as frostbite and forgot their training.

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 2:20:36 AM

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Turn 55.

The grind continues. Finally found a level 3 fort. Yeah. 3 of my panzer div are almost shells with only 80 tanks each instead of the 160 they had. CV of 6 end turn. CV of 13-14 before turn. Down from 20+ at offensive start.

My infantry are useless against these heavy forts, 9 div barely can muster 500 CV but the enemy has 540 so they take a beating. And then those 9 cannot be used the next turn.

I probably could break thru, but it will shatter my panzer div which I doubt could be rebuilt by winter. I think we have found the way to defeat the German right here. Just dig in and NOT attack during the blizzard just dig in. The German will shatter his army trying to make any progress for you. Then you can hit him blizzard 42 and destroy him.

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 2:22:19 AM

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Turn 55 casualties

Compare this to turn 51 at top of this page and look at the destruction delivered on my Panzer Corp. I am seeing PzIIIg back on my front line.

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 2:23:49 AM

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Turn 55 advances.

Here can see the scant 10 miles I advanced to day. He is pulling back and has units digging every hex for 60 miles.

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 2:28:55 AM

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And I have saves for every turn from turn 18 to now if the Devs or anyone wants to look at them for what ever reason.

Some huge issues are the TOE upgrades which gutted my experience levels. This has been found and tested. The swamp bonus has been found, Russian manpower hopefully has been toned down.

This is just painful. He is getting exp out the whazoo right now while I am shattering my units.

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 4:41:38 AM

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Kudos to the opponent for coming up with a pretty good strat when everyone was pretty much laughing at him for not attacking. It certainly seems effective for now and clearly there has been a method to his madness.

Some questions would be have you played with your ToE settings at all? (ramp up the guys in the attack zones and tone down the guys in more quiet sectors). Anything new you could be using support unit wise to help you with this? Have guys in the attack zones on refit and anyone else not on refit? Perhaps the attack was launched a bit too early before the German units had recovered fully (remember that Blue did not start until mid to late June for the most part and really did not swing into action until July).

What is the status of the Luftwaffe and is there any extra support they could be giving? What is he doing with the Red Airforce at this point?

Just trying to make sure nothing has been left out because the most sincere form of flattery is going to be following in his footsteps with this strat until someone figures out how to make a person using this strat pay for doing it. (or they change the game, which is also likely to happen).

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 4:53:33 AM

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This is a carpet defense to the extreme.

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 5:01:55 AM

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Something else to consider that I think could make him pay for this strat (but would be very boring for especially the Germans long term) would be the Germans more or less adopt the same idea.

I don't mean to hi-jack the AAR, but clearly this is a new wrinkle that players have not seen or considered and it flies in the face of conventional wisdom.

First off, sort of review the situation, etc. Because the Soviets did not attack during the winter, the Germans (and Soviets) did not face a lot of combat attrition. The Germans took their normal beating from the blizzard, but I think anyone seeing this in the future will be better prepared for it and move every unit he can into towns, regardless of how the front shapes up. Also as a result, the Soviets have far fewer guards units because they just don't have the victories that winter brings with it. They also did not have the opportunity to improve their mid grade generals stats, so their command depth did not improve. So we have a very large, but very regular Soviet army. The only thing giving his guys a bump beyond his Guards units are his shock armies and it is not like he has a pile of those.

So now, here comes Hermann's legions after a rough winter and even tho they are gassed up, etc this pretty much winds up a lot like Kursk where the Russians stand on the defensive, let the Germans exhaust themselves and then launch their counter attacks. In the mean time, their general skill issues and lack of guard units are getting fixed because their guys are earning it sitting on the defensive against multiple German attacks.

I think you strongly consider ceasing offensive operations and fall back and dig in. Dig deep, dig as far back as he gives you time. Multiple lines of level 4 forts. Essentially the same thing he is doing to you, except of course, you can't occupy all that at once, but you have fall back positions so that even if he kicks you off a line, you have more level 4 forts to fall back on.

Now here is where the rub is. This game has a long, long way to go, but the fact is if it ends right now, you win. At some point if he wants to win the game, he has to come out of his holes and advance to you. As soon as he comes out of the holes, you have got him in the open with a nice strong army that didn't break its teeth trying to grind away at his fortifications. In addition, since he has so few guards units and his generals have not skilled up, he isn't so hot on the attack. At this point, you get a chance to take him to school and cause him the losses you are looking to cause. Even if he comes up against your line, he is going to take horrific casualties trying to dig fairly good German divisions out of level 4 fortifications, especially if they are in nasty terrain of your choosing and you get a chance to limit as many attacks to two hexes as possible. It may make for a boring game, but I think it gives you a better chance than what lies ahead as it is now.

Sorry for the book.

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 5:05:30 AM

2ndACR

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I have stripped every pioneer from every other front, they were allocated to 2 per assault div in 17th Army and 4th Army. That did not work.

I have the assault troops on refit. Infantry anyway. But they don't muster enough teeth to get anywhere. I am stretched to basically single div frontage from the Estonian coast all the way to Smolensk. So that I could mass here. He has shifted a lot of troops here. Recon shows triple stack along my entire front from Smolensk north, but I don't have the strength to even dent his line.

All assault div were at 95% strength upon start of offensive ops. Exp was in the crapper due to winter and TOE upgrade bug. Most of my infantry were at 50 exp or so. Down from 80+ before winter.

German air force is on the scene. Not that it helps much. I have not moved AGN or the northern AGC air force because I need that to offset my weak line up there.

But yes, I think this is the most foolproof defense any Russian can use. I just get weaker each year. Whether I pulled back to Germany now or not, my TOE will shrink per real history, even though I don't suffer the same losses. We will see what happens, if I break out, it might hurt him bad. Just hope my poor panzers can take the beating they are.

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 5:10:41 AM

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One final note for now (I promise!): The German strat I just outlined is not without historical background and was in fact recommended by several Generals to Hitler as an alternative to Operation Blue. Halder, wanted very limited offensives aimed at straightening out the lines, setting aside reserves and continuing to rehabilitate the army in Russia before launching any major offensives. Obviously it didn't go that way and I doubt that was a viable strategy for Germany in 1942 anyway because I highly doubt they would have been in a better position to force a decision in Russian in 1943 without major mistakes on the part of the Russians. (Although if Stalin had kept up with stupid attacks like what happen in the south in the spring of 42, one never knows).

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 5:11:33 AM

2ndACR

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No problem Klydon, shoot I am looking for answers too. Before I even started my offensive he offered to start over. I want to continue until we get Beta 3 patch and I won't get clobbered by the upgrade bug, swamps won't be mini forts all on their own etc.

Plus, if I can find out how to beat this defense with my current handicaps, and there are a bunch of them, it will work anytime anyone try's this defense again. I like a challenge, but man this is murder.

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 5:12:35 AM

2ndACR

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Keep going, discussion is the best thing. I enjoy it.

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 5:33:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Kudos to the opponent for coming up with a pretty good strat when everyone was pretty much laughing at him for not attacking. It certainly seems effective for now and clearly there has been a method to his madness.

I'm not convinced it can't be busted.

And he can't win the war just sitting in his forts.

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 5:38:09 AM

2ndACR

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I am still slugging it out. I just don't see anything I could have done different. I know I got hit hard by the TOE upgrade bug and such. That is a big factor too. I watched my proud 75+ exp infantry melt into 50 exp slugs. Pray this is fixed for good.

If I could I would pull 2nd and 3rd Panzer out of the line and head to around Smolensk where it is just a single 3 unit stack in level 4 forts with hardly anything backing it, right now. But the amount of rail he has, means it would not last long.

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