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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 6:34:48 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		41 infantry could crack those forts, Pieter. These banged up landsers are not up to it.





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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 6:35:14 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Well, I have saves all the way back to turn 1 if you need any. I can provide them and password for review etc.

Good to know, I have faith that things will balance out, just need some tweaking.

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Post #: 242
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 6:45:47 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		I have PM'ed Kelblau and opened my AAR to him so he can offer his view too. But I see that he has started his own AAR now.

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Post #: 243
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 6:46:06 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
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Status: offline 		Like I wrote on the tester forum, 6 infantry divisions with a CV of 10 would still only get 1:1 odds on many of those forts. I've never believed that even 1941 infantry could crack lines of level 4 forts. Not across the entire frontline, in any case. You'd take ~1000 losses in each attack, at the least and probably a lot more if the VVS shows up with a huge IL-2 strike package, which will quickly drain infantry strength.

If you turtle too, 2ndACR, you should probably get a guaranteed minor victory, as your units are better and have higher construction values then his. Even with artillery divisions, hex row after hex row of level 4-5 forts will mean the Soviets are not going anywhere in a hurry.

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Post #: 244
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 6:50:22 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		I am trying to avoid going turtle. I could make him pay and pay dearly. But man that would be boring. Plus it denies the data we/you might need to help balance.

Well, I would make him pay until the historical TOE changes make me weaker. LOL

CV 10.....Heck I am throwing 6 Div with a CV of 400 at those level 4 forts and getting tossed back with 4-5,000 casualties. He shows up with 500+ CV to those battles.

< Message edited by 2ndACR -- 2/6/2011 6:51:42 PM >

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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 6:50:37 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		A German counterturtle would indeed be very tough to crack. I can't see the Sov doing much here before arty divisions come into play, and even after that given another 6 months to dig in and rest and refit, the German could turn even that into a slog.



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RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 6:52:01 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I am trying to avoid going turtle. I could make him pay and pay dearly. But man that would be boring. Plus it denies the data we/you might need to help balance.

Well, I would make him pay until the historical TOE changes make me weaker. LOL



It would yield interesting results either way, actually, from a testing standpoint. Extreme stress tests of any kind do so, and we're certainly in a stress test situation here...

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Post #: 247
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 6:54:12 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Okay, if that is what you guys want me to do, I will pull back and turtle hard. Say in my winter defensive line? Those forts are still strong.

Anything to help the game out.

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Post #: 248
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 6:55:54 PM   
Senno

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		I'm sorry ACR, but did you comment on the status of your Italian Air Force? VS the AI I'm only seeing 20 some planes max, and these are the old biplanes. I've only upgraded 5 to their newer model, and it's 11/42 for me. Are you seeing different numbers?

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Post #: 249
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 6:57:06 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Okay, if that is what you guys want me to do, I will pull back and turtle hard. Say in my winter defensive line? Those forts are still strong.

Anything to help the game out.



Nah, I'm not trying to push you into it, don't misunderstand me. However you choose to play this thing is worth following.



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Post #: 250
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 6:57:38 PM   
2ndACR


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From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		I can look for you. I just have not paid attention to the Allied air force. What do you want to know exactly? How many show up to a fight? How many I have active?

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Post #: 251
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 6:59:40 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Not being pushed. We were planning a restart after the new patch anyway, so I have no problems with going turtle and continuing to gather data.

You want an extreme test case and we have one. Heck, turtle turns would go really fast. LOL. Until he decided to come play anyway.

Gotta step out for a few.

< Message edited by 2ndACR -- 2/6/2011 7:00:26 PM >

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Post #: 252
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 7:01:44 PM   
Senno

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I can look for you. I just have not paid attention to the Allied air force. What do you want to know exactly? How many show up to a fight? How many I have active?


How many total and how many active. In my game the Italian Air Force has only ever been about 24 planes max, without combat losses, even.

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Post #: 253
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 7:18:25 PM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		Ouch, Soviets have some level 5 forts in there as well. Unreal.

Even with changes, there will be some Russians that try this for the most part because of the success here and some of the pros of doing it (Many of the AAR's have the Russians suffering heavy casualties in the winter offensive as well). The only way this tactic goes away (Russian turtle) is if it is proven the Germans will win most of the time if the Russians do not launch at least some type of winter offensive to bleed the Germans down given where the Germans got in this game from the 1941 offensive, which is somewhat typical of what has been happening so far.



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Post #: 254
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 7:22:48 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Yep. here is the info you wanted Senno. I had to pull them all from the National Reserve. But they never filled up or upgraded.




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Post #: 255
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 7:24:48 PM   
2ndACR


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From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		And the Pool count. I got a/c.




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Post #: 256
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 7:46:23 PM   
Senno

 

Posts: 489
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Status: offline 		Thank you 2ndACR, that's great. Looks like what I've seen, basically. Would a tester mind to comment on if that is how it should be? 20 or so old outdated planes? Maybe it's a known issue and I've just missed the bus, I suppose.

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Post #: 257
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 7:47:40 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		I would have to wait a turn to manually upgrade those a/c though. That was pulled off a recent save.

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Post #: 258
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 8:03:23 PM   
Senno

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		Oh yes, you're right. Thanks for the info. Husbanding the Axis Air Forces and trying to keep the partisans at manageable levels is a bit of a job, lol. I use the Italians to hopefully interdict partisan supply around the Kiev area.

< Message edited by Senno -- 2/6/2011 8:06:09 PM >

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Post #: 259
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 8:26:04 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
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Status: offline 		If both of you sit there for months digging it there won't be major offensives until the later part of 1942 ( the Soviet player needing time to put together corps ).

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Post #: 260
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 8:29:46 PM   
2ndACR


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From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		I know. But if they want an extreme test, then this is the one we can do. Be fun to see the Russian on the other side of the coin.

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Post #: 261
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 8:31:40 PM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		You may have noticed he started his own thread on this campaign.  Of course you should keep out of it.

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Post #: 262
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 8:33:15 PM   
2ndACR


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From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		I saw it. I also invited him over here if he wanted. Like I said, we have already discussed a restart once the new patch hits.

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Post #: 263
RE: June 42 - 2/6/2011 10:04:42 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
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Status: offline 		Who knew the Eastern Front could have it's own months-long Sitzkrieg? 

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Post #: 264
RE: June 42 - 2/7/2011 3:27:22 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Turn 57

I think it is almost time to halt the advance. My losses are grievous. I have basically shattered my Panzer Armies. My tank pools have been stripped bare. The 42 Germans just cannot get moving against this defense. I see level 2 forts, but they will be level 3-4 by the time I get to them.




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Post #: 265
RE: June 42 - 2/7/2011 3:28:01 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Turn 57 Sitrep




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Post #: 266
RE: June 42 - 2/7/2011 3:32:58 AM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		Save yourself the losses & start digging, digging, digging. His troops shouldn't be that experienced & you've got the entrenchment advantage - use the time to rebuild the Panzers & use them as a backstop in case he gets anything going. Without the next blizzard penalties, you should be able to bleed him dry should be launch an offensive of his own.

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Post #: 267
RE: June 42 - 2/7/2011 3:43:53 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		As much as I would prefer to NOT do that. It is about the only thing I can do. There is no way I can grind my way thru those forts. Not with Panzers only. My infantry are basically useless. 9 Div can barely muster during a deliberate attack 500 CV and he shows up with 700 or so. The result is 6500 casualties for me and 1300 for him, and no fort reduction.

So I guess it is dig like there is no tomorrow all across the fort with forts dug in all the way to Berlin. Let him face level 4-5 forts every hex until war ends.

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Post #: 268
RE: June 42 - 2/7/2011 3:53:16 AM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		Hell, have him come at your dug in infantry (which will improve over time) and use the rested panzers for a huge backhand blow when it comes time for that.

Or give him a tempting "thin spot" to attack, then cut off his spearhead(s).
Or pull back 20 hexes and when he does come for you, smack him and encircle him there if he doesn't come very slowly (if he does, you will be fully entrenched).

Might as well have fun.

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Post #: 269
RE: June 42 - 2/7/2011 3:53:35 AM   
Mynok


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It seems patently obvious from numerous AARs that the Germans who begin in 41 will have nothing by 42. Something must be changed if we are to have a semblance of a historical opportunity for the Axis in 42, let alone later. German infantry are being totally screwed by the 41 winter and following changes.


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