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RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/14/2011 12:49:12 AM

stuman

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Well I think this stuff looks great, you guys are true artists, and I really appreciate the effort you put into this. It makes the game that much more enjoyable.

I just poured myself a Cognac in y'alls honor !

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Post #: 31

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/14/2011 1:01:50 AM

Big B

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Guys this is all good feedback - please don't be shy - we kind of need to know....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

BigB, if anything I'd consider darkening that background just a bit, may just be my poor eyesight, it seems to all blur together a bit (keep in mind I have some mild color deficiencies). May be the fact that the lightest blue looks almost grey to me. So either a darker shade or a slightly different hue might help with that. It looks good, but the colors blurring together are giving me problems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman

Well I think this stuff looks great, you guys are true artists, and I really appreciate the effort you put into this. It makes the game that much more enjoyable.

I just poured myself a Cognac in y'alls honor !

(in reply to stuman)

Post #: 32

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/14/2011 1:12:27 AM

Big B

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Since the screens are on the last page - I'll repeat them;
Savo phase 2;

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< Message edited by Big B -- 2/14/2011 1:13:13 AM >

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Post #: 33

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/14/2011 1:14:35 AM

Big B

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and screen 2 Battle Off Samar;

And guys I don't post it for praise (nice) but I really need to know if you guys (and gals) accept the screens?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Big B -- 2/14/2011 1:20:31 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/14/2011 4:40:02 PM

SuluSea

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Will this be the final delay or do you guys anticipate another, with another batch for screens for the community to view? I'll be sure and thank you guys if this ever gets released count on it.

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Post #: 35

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/14/2011 8:01:54 PM

Cap Mandrake

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Big B....love the ship art...don't like the striations of the background so much. Seems like it needs a smoother color blend or something.

It always seemed to me that the 2-D side view art never really worked with the orthographic projection in the background anyway. Maybe a blue-washed or even black and white nautical chart of Ironbottom sound with very low contrast or something.

(in reply to stuman)

Post #: 36

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/14/2011 8:19:24 PM

vettim89

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Big B....love the ship art...don't like the striations of the background so much. Seems like it needs a smoother color blend or something.

It always seemed to me that the 2-D side view art never really worked with the orthographic projection in the background anyway. Maybe a blue-washed or even black and white nautical chart of Ironbottom sound with very low contrast or something.

I have to agree with the fine Captain here. The background does a disservice to your fine artwork. Not being a computer whiz kid, I don't know what to suggest. I think Cap maybe onto something here as towards looking at something "out of the box" so to say. It is said that "because we've always done it that way" is the poorest reason there is to justify a process. Perhaps taking look at some other ideas may be the way to go

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Post #: 37

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/14/2011 8:28:39 PM

Kubel

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Amazing...taking a great game to another level ...Thanks for all the work

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Post #: 38

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/14/2011 9:27:30 PM

gajdacs zsolt

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Very, very excellent work, can't wait to see them in the game :).

For me the biggest problem is the big white glow in the middle. I'm guessing it represents sunshine reflecting off the surface of water, but here it doesn't actually add anything to the background. I'd say that it'd be a lot better if you'd use the sea's light blue that's on the side of the screen for the whole of the sea. And than maybe darken it a bit, but really just maybe :).

Thanks for all the work you're putting into this. It is definitely appreciated!

< Message edited by Zsolo007 -- 2/14/2011 9:28:51 PM >

(in reply to Big B)

Post #: 39

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/14/2011 9:42:19 PM

bjfagan

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From: Los Angeles
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zsolo007

Very, very excellent work, can't wait to see them in the game :).

For me the biggest problem is the big white glow in the middle. I'm guessing it represents sunshine reflecting off the surface of water, but here it doesn't actually add anything to the background. I'd say that it'd be a lot better if you'd use the sea's light blue that's on the side of the screen for the whole of the sea. And than maybe darken it a bit, but really just maybe :).

Thanks for all the work you're putting into this. It is definitely appreciated!

I'd like to second this opinion.

(in reply to gajdacs zsolt)

Post #: 40

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/14/2011 10:44:02 PM

Cap Mandrake

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Something like this maybe...nautical map of Puerto Rico and Vieques, desaturated then rehued with color of choice.

Better would be a real period chart of Savo Is or something but I couldnt find one in real quick.

If there were someway to scale the ship side art so that the foreground ships were were bigger then the orthographic projection would make more sense but that would require some coding.

(after looking at this it looks like it needs to be washed out even more...too much detail..would be a distraction for the ship art)

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< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 2/14/2011 10:45:46 PM >

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Post #: 41

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/14/2011 10:47:07 PM

Big B

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Thanks for the feedback, ..I think it's back to the drawing board.

(in reply to bjfagan)

Post #: 42

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/15/2011 2:08:29 AM

TOMLABEL

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Will this be the final delay or do you guys anticipate another, with another batch for screens for the community to view? I'll be sure and thank you guys if this ever gets released count on it.

Well the Combat Screen IS a MAJOR issue with our artwork, but I also keep Brian busy by adding new classes of USN ships to work on. I'd like for this to be comprehensive in release so that I do not have to keep sending you guys new classes to add. OK, I'm anal.....sorry!

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Post #: 43

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/15/2011 6:11:51 AM

LoBaron

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First a big thanks for your work!!

Have to agree with the others. Somehting like a map is probably best as a background.
I always thought that water looks too artificial on the sprites to be really immersive.

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Post #: 44

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/15/2011 3:42:58 PM

SuluSea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TOMLABEL

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Will this be the final delay or do you guys anticipate another, with another batch for screens for the community to view? I'll be sure and thank you guys if this ever gets released count on it.

Well the Combat Screen IS a MAJOR issue with our artwork, but I also keep Brian busy by adding new classes of USN ships to work on. I'd like for this to be comprehensive in release so that I do not have to keep sending you guys new classes to add. OK, I'm anal.....sorry!

Since I've been posting in "ship artwork teaser" threads atleast as far back as the games release I think now is a good time to stop. Good luck on the rest of the journey.

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Post #: 45

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/15/2011 4:50:45 PM

Cavalry Corp

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Can I ask that Subs have nice symbols on them showing which carry aircraft, mines and especially Mini subs and Kaiten - its a nightmare finding these chaps !!

Cav

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Post #: 46

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/16/2011 1:35:05 AM

TOMLABEL

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

quote:

ORIGINAL: TOMLABEL

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Will this be the final delay or do you guys anticipate another, with another batch for screens for the community to view? I'll be sure and thank you guys if this ever gets released count on it.

Well the Combat Screen IS a MAJOR issue with our artwork, but I also keep Brian busy by adding new classes of USN ships to work on. I'd like for this to be comprehensive in release so that I do not have to keep sending you guys new classes to add. OK, I'm anal.....sorry!

Since I've been posting in "ship artwork teaser" threads atleast as far back as the games release I think now is a good time to stop. Good luck on the rest of the journey.

Thank you very much for your compliments and support over the time!! It has been encouraging and inspirational, no doubt.

TOMLABEL

< Message edited by TOMLABEL -- 2/16/2011 2:03:59 PM >

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Post #: 47

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/16/2011 1:56:02 AM

TOMLABEL

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Can I ask that Subs have nice symbols on them showing which carry aircraft, mines and especially Mini subs and Kaiten - its a nightmare finding these chaps !!

Cav

Good idea, but we are getting weary!!!! I know that Fremen did this with some of his art.....maybe in a later release...or maybe if we could talk him into modding the art we will release. He has been on vacation way too long!!!!

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Post #: 48

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/17/2011 1:02:27 PM

Akos Gergely

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Guys, can we have some more teasers at least while we wait on the release? :) The wait is getting really difficult to bear :D

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Post #: 49

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/17/2011 4:16:44 PM

treespider

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Has anyone given consideration of doing top-down views?

Top-down views combined with Cap Mandrakes suggestion for a background based on a chart may be interesting.

Obviuosly the downside is top down would elimnate all of the nice camo artwork...and it would also require a reworking of the muzzle blasts and damage artwork...lots and lots of work.

Anywho...on the plus side it would likely provide a completely new feel to the combat replay...

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Post #: 50

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/17/2011 4:49:08 PM

vettim89

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

Has anyone given consideration of doing top-down views?

Top-down views combined with Cap Mandrakes suggestion for a background based on a chart may be interesting.

Obviuosly the downside is top down would elimnate all of the nice camo artwork...and it would also require a reworking of the muzzle blasts and damage artwork...lots and lots of work.

Anywho...on the plus side it would likely provide a completely new feel to the combat replay...

Wow, I love that idea but would not wish that amount of work on my worst enemy. The camo work wouldn't be completely lost would it? It would still show up on the ship info screen wouldn't it?

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Post #: 51

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/18/2011 2:08:01 AM

Big B

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Just to comment on the idea - I have never thought about top-down art for the surface combat screen, I may do a quick experiment just to see what it would look like ... BUT (as Pee-Wee Herman said "there's always a big but") I can tell you all it wouldn't work in the game as configured with this engine.
The reason is - every form of combat screen uses the same 'combat' artwork (the shils file, as opposed to the similar 'sides' file) and that includes bombardment, air-to-surface, submarine attack... the rest of those screens just mentioned would look rather funky in top-down view I would think...
I'm also not too sure how much recognizable detail you could get on a top-down 'profile' at this small scale - certainly not as much as a side view, to be able to spot different classes at a glance...

B
EDIT - Yes the ship information screen would be the same - complete with current ship side view...unless that were changed as well - & it could be, but it wouldn't have to be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

Has anyone given consideration of doing top-down views?

Top-down views combined with Cap Mandrakes suggestion for a background based on a chart may be interesting.

Obviuosly the downside is top down would elimnate all of the nice camo artwork...and it would also require a reworking of the muzzle blasts and damage artwork...lots and lots of work.

Anywho...on the plus side it would likely provide a completely new feel to the combat replay...

Wow, I love that idea but would not wish that amount of work on my worst enemy. The camo work wouldn't be completely lost would it? It would still show up on the ship info screen wouldn't it?

< Message edited by Big B -- 2/18/2011 2:32:10 AM >

(in reply to vettim89)

Post #: 52

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/18/2011 3:43:44 PM

Kull

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

and screen 2 Battle Off Samar;

And guys I don't post it for praise (nice) but I really need to know if you guys (and gals) accept the screens?

Here's the biggest visual issue with the current Combat screens. They adopt a 3-D-ish approach in which there's a foreground which diminishes to a horizon in the distance. Yet the ship models do not likewise "shrink" as your eyes move from "bottom (near) to top (far). So it's kind of a jarring visual effect. There's obviously nothing you can do to change the way in which the ships are displayed, so it's probably best to ditch the background format and use something in which the bottom and top are perceived at the same visual distance (such as a map or a top-down picture).

< Message edited by Kull -- 2/18/2011 3:44:05 PM >

(in reply to Big B)

Post #: 53

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/18/2011 8:35:48 PM

Cap Mandrake

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

and screen 2 Battle Off Samar;

And guys I don't post it for praise (nice) but I really need to know if you guys (and gals) accept the screens?

Here's the biggest visual issue with the current Combat screens. They adopt a 3-D-ish approach in which there's a foreground which diminishes to a horizon in the distance. Yet the ship models do not likewise "shrink" as your eyes move from "bottom (near) to top (far). So it's kind of a jarring visual effect. There's obviously nothing you can do to change the way in which the ships are displayed, so it's probably best to ditch the background format and use something in which the bottom and top are perceived at the same visual distance (such as a map or a top-down picture).

Exactly. The brain "knows" that distant objects are supposed to appear smaller. When they aren't, it can't be reconciled. Either the background has to be two dimensional or the ships have to follow the "vanishing lines" in the perspective and be smaller in the rear to really pull it off. There is also the small technical point that if the viewer were say at 500 ft altitude and 2 miles from the nearest vessel, some of the deck and other horizontal surfaces would be visible. This would be a true "3D" rendering and is beyond the scope.

There is also the bit about a "line abreast" formation and the unrealistic apparent engagement ranges and the fact that the aft turrets couldn't engage. Everyone here already knows these things. The display is therefore to be seen as a symbolic or simplified representation which is why it seems to me it makes more sense to take out the shoehorned 3-D background.

(in reply to Kull)

Post #: 54

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/18/2011 10:46:07 PM

Big B

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I agree wholeheartedly with both of you.

I am working on that now (removing the shoehorned 3-D background).

The final effect should be visually more agreeable.

Thanks,

B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

and screen 2 Battle Off Samar;

And guys I don't post it for praise (nice) but I really need to know if you guys (and gals) accept the screens?

Here's the biggest visual issue with the current Combat screens. They adopt a 3-D-ish approach in which there's a foreground which diminishes to a horizon in the distance. Yet the ship models do not likewise "shrink" as your eyes move from "bottom (near) to top (far). So it's kind of a jarring visual effect. There's obviously nothing you can do to change the way in which the ships are displayed, so it's probably best to ditch the background format and use something in which the bottom and top are perceived at the same visual distance (such as a map or a top-down picture).

Exactly. The brain "knows" that distant objects are supposed to appear smaller. When they aren't, it can't be reconciled. Either the background has to be two dimensional or the ships have to follow the "vanishing lines" in the perspective and be smaller in the rear to really pull it off. There is also the small technical point that if the viewer were say at 500 ft altitude and 2 miles from the nearest vessel, some of the deck and other horizontal surfaces would be visible. This would be a true "3D" rendering and is beyond the scope.

There is also the bit about a "line abreast" formation and the unrealistic apparent engagement ranges and the fact that the aft turrets couldn't engage. Everyone here already knows these things. The display is therefore to be seen as a symbolic or simplified representation which is why it seems to me it makes more sense to take out the shoehorned 3-D background.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 55

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/19/2011 3:20:47 AM

TOMLABEL

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

I agree wholeheartedly with both of you.

I am working on that now (removing the shoehorned 3-D background).

The final effect should be visually more agreeable.

Thanks,

B

Brian wanted me to post this in response to his post above to get your thoughts. Please let us know what those are. You guys are invaluable!!!!!

TOMLABEL

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by TOMLABEL -- 2/19/2011 3:22:28 AM >

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Post #: 56

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/19/2011 3:34:27 AM

FeurerKrieg

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I approve wholeheartedly.

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Post #: 57

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/19/2011 3:49:44 AM

Cap Mandrake

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Very nice....could be like a gun director's compass or something.

Flags are a very cool idea although I think they could be toned down in keeping with the theme of the wear and tear on the "naval combat" placard and the period equipment on the other other screens (analaglous to red "meatball" screen..forget which it is). As it is they distract from the subdued camo art on the ships.

Nice touch on the 48 star US flag. Make sure all the flags are the right battle ensigns or somebody will string you up by your thumbs.

(in reply to FeurerKrieg)

Post #: 58

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/19/2011 3:50:56 AM

Kull

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

I agree wholeheartedly with both of you.

I am working on that now (removing the shoehorned 3-D background).

The final effect should be visually more agreeable.

Thanks,

B

This sounds pretty simplistic, but what if you kept the light blue ocean backdrop from the first selections, but removed the vertical "highlights" and the horizon. So from top to bottom it's just ocean? As for the choice of hue, is that something that you and Tom have arrived at as "clearly best", or were there other colors that showcased the art as well? For example, were there colors that provided a better backdrop, yet were discarded on the basis of "doesn't look like water" If so, think about Vettim89's out-of-the-box comment and give them a shot (albeit not with waves!) At the end of the day, all we're really talking about is the choice of canvas on which the REAL art will be displayed. So the primary goal should be a background that doesn't detract from the important stuff - those gorgeous ships!

(in reply to Big B)

Post #: 59

RE: New Screen for Surface Combat - 2/19/2011 4:16:49 AM

TOMLABEL

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

I agree wholeheartedly with both of you.

I am working on that now (removing the shoehorned 3-D background).

The final effect should be visually more agreeable.

Thanks,

B

This sounds pretty simplistic, but what if you kept the light blue ocean backdrop from the first selections, but removed the vertical "highlights" and the horizon. So from top to bottom it's just ocean? As for the choice of hue, is that something that you and Tom have arrived at as "clearly best", or were there other colors that showcased the art as well? For example, were there colors that provided a better backdrop, yet were discarded on the basis of "doesn't look like water" If so, think about Vettim89's out-of-the-box comment and give them a shot (albeit not with waves!) At the end of the day, all we're really talking about is the choice of canvas on which the REAL art will be displayed. So the primary goal should be a background that doesn't detract from the important stuff - those gorgeous ships!

Thanks for the comments you guys!!!

We're taking all of your thoughts into deep consideration! We all may be onto something totally new here! Please keep the comments coming as that is what we are working off!

Prior to this posting B and I have decided that we are going to narrow down all the idea/options to a few Combat Screens (instead of just one) so you guys can pick which one works best for your paticular interests. Some folks have sent us some very interesting options that we will include as well.

But to keep on topic, lets keep the comments coming on this new variaton!!

TOMLABEL

< Message edited by TOMLABEL -- 2/19/2011 4:45:59 AM >

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Post #: 60