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RE: Hammer and sickle

 
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RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 3:50:26 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline

Don't forget Horst Wessel was a communist irl who died is street battles against fascism. Goebbels just took over the song about him and turned his story on its head.
Our thread starter may just be a red under the bed but I am in no position to take a poke at those who choose silly names.
[/quote]

?. He wrote the lyrics, and he was not a communist.

[/quote]

The song is about HW written after he was killed. I don't know who wrote it but don't think it was him

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 31
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 3:56:50 PM   
micha1100

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 12/26/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fänrik Stål


quote:

ORIGINAL: micha1100


Austria has always been a German state, only inner-German conflicts prevented its inclusion into the new German Reich built by Bismarck in 1871.

Inner-German? In 1871 Austria-Hungary was an empire spanning huge areas of non-german lands. It would have had major international consequences.


Yes, inner-German. As I said, Austria (German-Austria) always was a German state. For a long time it was expected or at least hoped that a unified Germany would include German-Austria. However, the growing Austrian possessions on the Balkan increasingly focussed Austrian attentions eastwards. Had they wanted (and, as it turned out, accepted Prussian leadership), German-Austria could have become part of the German Reich. As it is, when the Austro-Hungarian Empire broke apart at the end of WWI, the remaining Austria intended to join Germany (iirc it was even in the original constitution after the monarchy was abolished in 1918), but then the peace treaties of 1919 forbade that.
It's a fact that the difference in language and culture between Northern Germans (like Prussians) and Southern Germans (like Bavarians) ist greater than the difference between Southern Germans and Austrians.

(in reply to Fänrik Stål)
Post #: 32
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 4:03:39 PM   
micha1100

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 12/26/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

quote:


quote:



Don't forget Horst Wessel was a communist irl who died is street battles against fascism. Goebbels just took over the song about him and turned his story on its head.
Our thread starter may just be a red under the bed but I am in no position to take a poke at those who choose silly names.

?. He wrote the lyrics, and he was not a communist.



The song is about HW written after he was killed. I don't know who wrote it but don't think it was him


Sillyflower, I'm afraid you are mistaken. Cannonfodder is right, Horst Wessel was an SA-member and wrote the lyrics to this song. It was named after him when he was killed by communists.

< Message edited by micha1100 -- 2/5/2011 4:08:28 PM >

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 33
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 4:04:32 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Wessel.html

Regardless of thw OP's name. Regardless of feelings about German law. (Or Austrian law for that matter. look up David Irving,) He didn't ask a stupid question.

What he got was a stupid answer.

All that had to be said was that the symbol is illegal in many countries. And maybe a link or two that explained why.

As an aside, wasn't there a display of Nazi reglia in Berlin that did rather well.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 34
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 4:11:57 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

As an aside, wasn't there a display of Nazi reglia in Berlin that did rather well.


If you mean the Hitler exhibition in the German Historical Museum, that's right. Showing Nazi symbols with an educational purpose is not forbidden in Germany.

Regards

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 35
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 4:12:49 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

As an aside, wasn't there a display of Nazi reglia in Berlin that did rather well.


If you mean the Hitler exhibition in the German Historical Museum, that's right. Showing Nazi symbols with an educational purpose is not forbidden in Germany.

Regards



That/s the one :)

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 36
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 4:13:10 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		Ive had a look at Nazi memorabilla some of it is very nice, you can even buy some of it.

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 37
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 4:39:35 PM   
mephistofileez

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 6/22/2009
Status: offline 		Regardless of the OP's intent, disrespect should never be tolerated on these forums. It's inappropriate, and I hope the forum moderators move to end it.

(in reply to cookie monster)
Post #: 38
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 4:52:47 PM   
Fänrik Stål


Posts: 108
Joined: 1/4/2006
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: micha1100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fänrik Stål


quote:

ORIGINAL: micha1100


Austria has always been a German state, only inner-German conflicts prevented its inclusion into the new German Reich built by Bismarck in 1871.

Inner-German? In 1871 Austria-Hungary was an empire spanning huge areas of non-german lands. It would have had major international consequences.


Yes, inner-German. As I said, Austria (German-Austria) always was a German state. For a long time it was expected or at least hoped that a unified Germany would include German-Austria. However, the growing Austrian possessions on the Balkan increasingly focussed Austrian attentions eastwards. Had they wanted (and, as it turned out, accepted Prussian leadership), German-Austria could have become part of the German Reich. As it is, when the Austro-Hungarian Empire broke apart at the end of WWI, the remaining Austria intended to join Germany (iirc it was even in the original constitution after the monarchy was abolished in 1918), but then the peace treaties of 1919 forbade that.
It's a fact that the difference in language and culture between Northern Germans (like Prussians) and Southern Germans (like Bavarians) ist greater than the difference between Southern Germans and Austrians.


All this does is show that it wasn't inner-German conflicts that prevented German Austria from becoming part of the Reich in 1871, but rather the reality that was Austria-Hungary. There was IMO no way it could realistically be either broken up or included wholesale in the Reich at that time. 1918 is a completely different kettle of fish.
To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion about Guderian, just this specific argument.

(in reply to micha1100)
Post #: 39
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 4:55:04 PM   
PaulWRoberts

 

Posts: 897
Joined: 4/22/2001
Status: offline 		Given the number of new users attracted to WITE, it might be a good idea for Matrix to sticky an official statement about this issue. That way, when it comes up again, a simple link will explain the matter without heating everyone up.

(in reply to mephistofileez)
Post #: 40
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 5:30:03 PM   
micha1100

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 12/26/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fänrik Stål

All this does is show that it wasn't inner-German conflicts that prevented German Austria from becoming part of the Reich in 1871, but rather the reality that was Austria-Hungary. There was IMO no way it could realistically be either broken up or included wholesale in the Reich at that time. 1918 is a completely different kettle of fish.
To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion about Guderian, just this specific argument.


Okay, I can agree with that. My point is that it was only a political decision to exclude German-Austria from the new German Reich and therefore the incorparation of Austria into Germany was no aggressive annexation, rather Austria came "home into the Reich". It's no coincidence that many Austrian cheered the Wehrmacht when it entered Austria and that the Austrian vote was overwhelmingly for the "Anschluss". Many people unfamiliar with German history believe that what happened with Austria and the Sudetenland was comparable to the later wars, but this is simply not true.

(in reply to Fänrik Stål)
Post #: 41
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 5:30:35 PM   
alfonso

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 10/22/2001
From: Palma de Mallorca
Status: offline 		Micha, you are German, so perhaps you know something about the use of the svastika?. Where is the limit? I have seen a lot of Svastikas in the movies (Indiana Jones!). Are those images censured in Germany? Are only forbidden when used as symbol? Are only allowed if the Nazis are the bad guys in the movie? Is it forbidden today to see love movies (in case there were!) of the Third Reich if the main character was a Nazi?

(in reply to micha1100)
Post #: 42
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 5:38:49 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		I know in the TV series Hogan's Heroes, the German broadcast changed Heil Hitler, (which is illegal to say), to "How high is your corn." when a character gave the party salute.

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 43
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 5:41:30 PM   
Zebedee


Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
Heliodorus, are you having a bad day? Not sure why you think it would be common knowledge for an American to know about GERMAN laws? A country an entire ocean away?


One would imagine 'Horst' knows exactly why and is making a trolling party political broadcast on behalf of Stormfront or whichever other neo-nazi website he crawled out from. In fact, he makes clear that he understands the issues involved in his post. :)

(in reply to V22 Osprey)
Post #: 44
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 6:07:49 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		A guy called Horst Wessel, with the remark "raise high the flag" in his signature asking about svastika's and political correctness of developers....

Wake up guys...

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Zebedee)
Post #: 45
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 6:08:37 PM   
Horst Wessell

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/4/2011
From: Montana
Status: offline 		Moderater you need to lock this thread. There some very informed people here. Also some very hateful posters. In todays society with it's "zero tolerance" being taught in todays schools (my wife is a retired teacher) thought and reasonable discussion is not the norm. Again, I am done with this site.

(in reply to Zebedee)
Post #: 46
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 6:16:07 PM   
Fänrik Stål


Posts: 108
Joined: 1/4/2006
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: micha1100

Okay, I can agree with that. My point is that it was only a political decision to exclude German-Austria from the new German Reich and therefore the incorparation of Austria into Germany was no aggressive annexation, rather Austria came "home into the Reich". It's no coincidence that many Austrian cheered the Wehrmacht when it entered Austria and that the Austrian vote was overwhelmingly for the "Anschluss". Many people unfamiliar with German history believe that what happened with Austria and the Sudetenland was comparable to the later wars, but this is simply not true.


Absolutely agree on that.

(in reply to micha1100)
Post #: 47
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 6:29:43 PM   
Lrfss


Posts: 349
Joined: 5/20/2002
From: Spring, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2642120

Here is a mod and an answer from Erik from Matrix Games.



Thanks "2ndACR" for the link as I somehow missed this great Mod! Installed it and love the historical flavor it adds to the experience that is this simulation!

Sincerely,

Lrfss

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 48
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 6:29:52 PM   
micha1100

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 12/26/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

Micha, you are German, so perhaps you know something about the use of the svastika?. Where is the limit? I have seen a lot of Svastikas in the movies (Indiana Jones!). Are those images censured in Germany? Are only forbidden when used as symbol? Are only allowed if the Nazis are the bad guys in the movie? Is it forbidden today to see love movies (in case there were!) of the Third Reich if the main character was a Nazi?


The exact limit is very hard to determine, there are several partly contradicting court decisions. The general rule is that symbols of unconstitutional organisations must not be publicly shown, but that law does not apply when the "protective purpose" of the law is not violated. When exactly this is the case is, of course, anyone's guess. But in historic films these symbols are definitely allowed. For example the great German film "Downfall" about the last days of Hitler (did anyone see it?) uses all the original uniforms and language. The same goes for historical exhibitions.
But outside of those examples the reactions of the authorities are difficult to predict. I, for example, am convinced that a historical wargame like WitE would not violate the German law even if it used original symbols but I'd very much expect the authorities to at least index it. For many "politically correct" people in Germany even re-playing the war is borderline fascist. ;-)

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 49
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 6:30:17 PM   
Fänrik Stål


Posts: 108
Joined: 1/4/2006
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Horst Wessell

Moderater you need to lock this thread. There some very informed people here. Also some very hateful posters. In todays society with it's "zero tolerance" being taught in todays schools (my wife is a retired teacher) thought and reasonable discussion is not the norm. Again, I am done with this site.


Don't be silly. You had one response to your original question calling your complaint stupid, but more importantly giving the correct answer to your question, before you started whining about tolerance. Welcome to the Internet. Most people's first experience with gaming forums such as this does not end so well.

< Message edited by Fänrik Stål -- 2/5/2011 6:31:39 PM >

(in reply to Horst Wessell)
Post #: 50
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 6:38:31 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Heh. Downfall went viral on the internet a long time ago as an endless source of parodies, so, yeah, pretty much everyone has seen at least that by now.



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WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Fänrik Stål)
Post #: 51
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 6:39:59 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

A guy called Horst Wessel, with the remark "raise high the flag" in his signature asking about svastika's and political correctness of developers....

Wake up guys...


Amen. He deserves zero respect for coming on here with that combination of crap.

< Message edited by Mynok -- 2/5/2011 6:40:13 PM >

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 52
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 6:44:58 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline 		Silly me. I have misremembered



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web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to micha1100)
Post #: 53
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 7:12:16 PM   
SgtKachalin


Posts: 45
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Horst Wessell

Moderater you need to lock this thread. There some very informed people here. Also some very hateful posters. In todays society with it's "zero tolerance" being taught in todays schools (my wife is a retired teacher) thought and reasonable discussion is not the norm. Again, I am done with this site.



Hateful? lol Reasonable discussion? lmao! Done again? lol!

Obvious troll is obvious.

(in reply to Horst Wessell)
Post #: 54
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 7:36:34 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Horst Wessell

Moderater you need to lock this thread. There some very informed people here. Also some very hateful posters. In todays society with it's "zero tolerance" being taught in todays schools (my wife is a retired teacher) thought and reasonable discussion is not the norm. Again, I am done with this site.



It's funny that you started the thread under the heading "Hammer and sickle". But it deals with the swastika.

Those "Where's the swastika?" threads are boring and lead to nowhere. Swastika symbol has sligthly different sub-meanings say in German, US and trans-national internet discourses ("Germans guilt", "right of free speech", "trolling"). Not to mention say Russia or Poland.

Please remember all that Matrix forum neither US nor German or some other national public but a company's privat digital platform. Thus I'm confident that it'll happen what always happens:

Mr. Rutins, Mr. Billings or Mr. von Martial will close this thread.

Regards

< Message edited by wosung -- 2/5/2011 7:37:44 PM >

(in reply to Horst Wessell)
Post #: 55
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 7:37:02 PM   
alfonso

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 10/22/2001
From: Palma de Mallorca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: micha1100


quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

Micha, you are German, so perhaps you know something about the use of the svastika?. Where is the limit? I have seen a lot of Svastikas in the movies (Indiana Jones!). Are those images censured in Germany? Are only forbidden when used as symbol? Are only allowed if the Nazis are the bad guys in the movie? Is it forbidden today to see love movies (in case there were!) of the Third Reich if the main character was a Nazi?


The exact limit is very hard to determine, there are several partly contradicting court decisions. The general rule is that symbols of unconstitutional organisations must not be publicly shown, but that law does not apply when the "protective purpose" of the law is not violated. When exactly this is the case is, of course, anyone's guess. But in historic films these symbols are definitely allowed. For example the great German film "Downfall" about the last days of Hitler (did anyone see it?) uses all the original uniforms and language. The same goes for historical exhibitions.
But outside of those examples the reactions of the authorities are difficult to predict. I, for example, am convinced that a historical wargame like WitE would not violate the German law even if it used original symbols but I'd very much expect the authorities to at least index it. For many "politically correct" people in Germany even re-playing the war is borderline fascist. ;-)


Thank you!

I understand the complexities of dealing with such a delicate issue in your country even today. I think Matrix wanted to be in the safe side, just in case. And yes, I have seen "Downfall"!! Shame on me, I forgot it was a German movie!

(in reply to micha1100)
Post #: 56
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 11:51:37 PM   
Theng

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 12/13/2002
Status: offline 		The Horst Wessel Song was actually part of the German national anthem during the Hitler years together with the von Fallersleben Deutschland song. Wessel was killed in 1930 by a communist.

I personally think that the name "Horst Wessel" as account name is enough to lock a thread, but hey if freedom of speech extends to such names then it should also extend the rest of this thread. So calling for a thread to be closed in a third post after the person said they were done with this forum and would not visit it again in a second post, lets say, "inconsistent."

_____________________________

Molon Labe!

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 57
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/6/2011 12:04:17 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		I think it's time for a lock as the OP's question has been answered.

(in reply to Theng)
Post #: 58
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/6/2011 12:18:28 AM   
Skanvak

 

Posts: 577
Joined: 4/3/2005
Status: offline 		Well then we should petition the German gouvernment to consider historcial simulation as being historicla research or the like. As, I do consider games as being educational about history. So I felt this way that it hide german as nazi.

Anyway nice discution for once on this matter.


_____________________________


Best regards

Skanvak

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 59
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/6/2011 12:38:01 AM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 2811
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

Holywood and others get away with portraying the swastika by putting it backwards.

(in reply to Skanvak)
Post #: 60
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