RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/16/2011 7:23:21 AM

witpqs

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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

You might think if something like that happened ( an intentional OPSEC breach ) that you'd be able to continue on happily. I, personally, found that while that's what I tried I found that every time a trap I'd laid was avoided because of the OPSEC breach my enjoyment of the game just leeched away. I think an OPSEC breach in AE will end up being terminal because this game just takes too long and is too involved for an OPSEC breach to be overcome or just written off as "one of those things". The OPSEC breach is also the reason for my absence... It is hard to get enthused about something when someone willfully comes along and ruins it . Especially since he has given every indication that if I play another game he'll do the same. Add in the fact that he is still welcome and deeply involved in various mods etc - why they'd be willing to associate with a self-confessed cheat is beyond me - and my general level of enthusiasm for AE and the AE community is about zero right now.

That stinks to be sure. Just FYI, I only found out that it was him in your post just a bit farther up in this thread. Perhaps many others are like me: I don't even attempt to read all of the threads in the AE forum. Lots of folks might not know and just think he's one of the guys.

Why in heck would he indicate he would do it again? That makes no sense whatever. I mean real sense, of course.

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 451

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/16/2011 10:17:16 AM

Canoerebel

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Thanks, Brad. I haven't detected any signs of an OpSec breach in my AAR nor (from what little I can tell from this side of the game) in Steve's.

It's also worth mentioning that an AAR can sometimes come across as somewhat critical of an opponent when people are frankly discussing his play. That's just the nature of the beast, I suppose. Steve is a real gentleman, so I don't want to appear to be criticizing him personally, though as the game develops I form opinions about his experience, skill, etc. (and he does the same of me, no doubt).

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 452

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/16/2011 11:31:06 AM

Canoerebel

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2/9/42

Eastern DEI: Mini-KB remains a few hexes south of Soerabaja. CL Caledon was torpedoed in the Sunda Strait. She suffered light damage and will make for Colombo.

Western DEI: One engineer unit arrived at Palembang. The second will arrive at Oosthaven in two days. Two Aussie brigades just arrived at Aden. I set them to prep for Benkolen and they will board ships in two days. (I'm still debating whether to change prep for the other Aussie brigade currently bound for Port Blair; if I do, I'd send it to Benkolen or Oosthaven). All quiet at Singapore, where the Allied AV is up to 956. Steve is reconning more bases over the past few days, including Palembang, Djambi, and Prabaemolith. So he knows something big is up.

Burma: The Japanese took vacant Pegu. I wish I had enough political points to send reinforcements to Rangoon, but everything's going to Sumatra. So I'm pulling out of Rangoon.

China: At least 26 IJA units advancing on Changsha. I'm guessing that the AV will be somewhere near 4,000 when all is said and done. The Chinese will have that much or more. Forts are up to 4.92, so good progress there.

Luzon: A fourth divisions (53rd) arrived at Clark Field. The Japanese attacked at 1:3 odds, dropped forts to 3, and suffered disproporitionately heavy casualties. Steve will have to rest his troops somewhere between 3 to 5 days I think, but he's making progress now. I think he'll come full bore for Singapore and Sumatra as soon as he finsihes Clark and Bataan. I probably have at least a month, perhaps more (including travel time).

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 453

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/16/2011 12:10:20 PM

Saros

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53rd div is bought out from the home islands if I recall correctly which is around 1500+ pp'S. What are you guys doing with respect to using the two cheap buyout HQ's, 11th air flotilla for the IJA and 1st Amphib corps for the US

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Post #: 454

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/16/2011 12:41:36 PM

Nemo121

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witpqs,

I agree but sometimes people don't make sense. It would appear that because I changed my plans in that game AFTER being told by someone that OPSEC had been breached ( the first time he breached it to my opponent ) this, in his mind, proved that I must be cheating. And since I'm a cheat he is, always, justified in ruining any game I play by breaching FOW to "help" my opponents because this judge, jury and executioner is, obviously, infallible.

It is a major example of circular logic of course and all rests on the basis that no-one on this forum would ever raise a concern to a player if they saw OPSEC being breached in that player's opponent's AAR. Obviously though it is relatively common on the forum for people to raise concerns if they are concerned about OPSEC. So, that explains why he did it the 2nd time.

The first time, according to him, was because I was correctly determining what my opponent would do and therefore MUST be cheating. It appears that actually just being good is impossible.

To be honest I'm sickened by the whole thing and the fact that he is still strutting around here, working on mods and being hailed as a fine fellow.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 4/16/2011 12:47:53 PM >

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Post #: 455

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/16/2011 9:00:02 PM

Canoerebel

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2/10/42

Eastern DEI: The Mini-KB is split (that's dangerous, dangerous, dangerous for Steve to do so often; I hope he keeps it up!). One part is west of Makassar, the other is south of Java and nearing Tjilitjap. Thus far, Allied air has peformed very poorly. But this force, which includes Ryujo, Zuiho, Fuso, and Ise, is drawing near to my bases, so I've transferred Indomitable and Hermes torpedo bombers to Oosthaven, where I have a torp Air HQ. I've also loaded up nearby bases, including Batavia and Tjilitjap, with my best bombers and fighters. This isn't altogether a hoax, as the Allies have about 100 decent American fighers in the area now. It would take great luck for Albacores and Stringbags to score, but it's worth a shot.

Western DEI: I had an engineer unit approaching Oosthaven, but I'll have to scramble the transports west to flee the oncoming (I think) Mini-KB. Singapore looks good with 956 AV. Port Blair has about 120 AV. The Indian engineer at Palembang helped raise forts from 3.38 to 3.41 in one day, so at that pace forts will reach 4 in 20 days, a big improvement. The prep for many of the infantry units at Palembang is between 60 and 80 now, though there are some laggards with far less.

China: Steve is indeed moving his stack of about 26 units into Changsha, which suits me as that's the best place I can fight. Forts are up to 4.97 and should reach 5 tomorrow. Allied AV is 3981 with about 600 more on the way. I hope he attacks and I hope it decimates his army. If it should decimate mine...well, I'd be hurting.

SoPac: Steve has moved faster than I expected, gnawing off Luganville, Koumac, Noumea, and now Norfolk Island in quick order. This has gone against his tendency to move methodically. I give him credit to eliminating much of the buffer zone that gave me some comfort. But I'm much more concerned about other areas, so I'm not committing any forces. Auckland, by the way, has 450 AV, so it would take a couple of divisions to take her in a reasonable amount of time. I wouldn't mind Steve devoting part of his core corps to such an endeavor if it weakened him in more important venues.

Nemo: It would drive me crazy to deal with somebody who wrongly questioned my honor, wouldn't listen to any reason or sense, and was treated with respect by others. I doubt many people know what you've been facing (I didn't until just a few days ago - nothing, I mean, beyond the general info that you'd suffered an OpSec violation). I don't blame you for chewing nails (if that's a fair term for it), but everyone who really knows your reputation and skill, which is nearly all the regulars, have no questions about you whatsoever. Other than the fact that you use big words and think in ways some of us can't quite wrap our minds around, that is.

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 456

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/16/2011 9:17:59 PM

princep01

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I don't post much in the Forum, and don't spend time reading a lot of AARs other than those of a select few. The first Forum message I ever read was one by Nemo and it helped me greatly in understanding part of the original WitP. I have thus always been partial to things he says even when he gets a little pompous (sorry Nemo, that's the way it sometimes sounds). He teaches the game. For that I am grateful.

As to the FatR incident, I will remain neutral as I don't have neither a dog in that fight nor know the circumstances surrounding it. But, I will always appreciate the game analyzing ability of Nemo and appreciate the time and effort of good AAR writers like CR and Cuttlefish. I'd never do anything to compromise an AAR's author. They put too much time and effort in the game for me to consider compromising their efforts. Thanks, CR, for opening you forum to your strategic thinking and game execution.

Now, go out there and sink the hell outta both those reduced Mini-KBs. That is a great opportunity to snatch a tool out of the enemy's hand and bash him about with it.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 457

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/16/2011 10:04:03 PM

bradfordkay

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"It would take great luck for Albacores and Stringbags to score, but it's worth a shot. "

Good move... Steve HATES Stringbags!!! (I've had pretty good luck with them over the years. I even ran a nice RN carrier raid on his landings at Oosthaven last year - and then bugged out when the KB ran in to repay me for my effrontery!).

Oh, and Changsha holds pretty nicely. The urban terrain helps a lot. We are almost into '43 and he is having to try to flank it because his attacks there have gone so poorly.

< Message edited by bradfordkay -- 4/16/2011 10:08:39 PM >

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Post #: 458

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/16/2011 11:31:00 PM

Nemo121

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princep01,

Hmm, your moral relativism reminds me of Niemoller's "First They Came..." poem. Here's a few things I'd point out for your consideration. They're things I try to live by, not always succesfully of course but I try. You may decide they don't suit you or your worldview but you may find it interesting to ponder them a bit... You may also think that's an example of pomposity, so be it, there are far worse things than being thought of as pompous...

1. Good people ALWAYS have a dog in the fight when it comes to others being wronged. Once you start ignoring wrongs committed in front of your eyes then you become a party to those wrongs.

2. Even on a non-altruistic level once you let others be wronged and know they are wronged then you create a situation where societally that sort of behaviour becomes more and more tolerated and, eventually, you're going to be on the other side of the wrong, wondering why no-one is willing to stick their neck out to help you.

3. I would point you to the Niemoller pome "First they came..."

quote:

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

I'd also suggest you might find The Hangman an interesting poem to read.

4. Evil encroaches on our lives and world all the time. It isn't always some cloven-footed avatar we can all recognise. Sometimes it is just something wrong which we'll gain nothing by opposing because it is happening to someone else. Eventually though WE will be that someone else and if we don't stop up for others how can we hope they'll stand up for us? Notwithstanding that, even if you assume no-one will stand up for you when it is your time to be on the wrong side of that equation sometimes what is right and wrong is clear and we should stand up for what is right, IMO ( Of course, your opinion may well differ, I can respect that, even if it puts you in the pool of people I'd choose not to play, if I were continuing to play AE.).

As to the circumstances... Initially I thought it might be a misunderstanding so I wrote to FatR, giving him an opportunity to apologise. In his reply he freely admitted leaking the information purposely because he, as judge jury and executioner had decided I was guilty and he stated, "You will receive no apology from me, and nothing but contempt in the future. " So, the facts are pretty damned clear and admitted by FatR. So, if you choose not to act it isn't because you don't know the facts - as they are admitted by him - but simply because you don't care enough that someone else's game was ruined intentionally to take a position about said action.

It is, of course, your business whether or not you are happy to allow such things to go in within your reach and do nothing about them. I do believe, however, that such an attitude is unfortunate. Standing up for others can get you into trouble at times of course and it isn't risk-free but, overall, I think that if everyone stood up for others when they saw them being wronged the world would be a better place.

Within medicine I see this as colleagues have often argued against my policy of stopping for EVERY car crash/moped crash etc I see. The majority of my colleagues ( about 90%+ don't stop ). Most of them drive by on the basis that if they stop there is a risk of being sued. So, selfishly, to reduce the risk of being sued they drive by and increase the risk of the injured parties dieing. I choose to minimise the risk of people dieing at the cost of increasing my risk of being sued. It doesn't make me a great person or anything and I'm not saying it in that vein. I'm just saying that I believe that's the right thing to do and therefore do it even though it increases the risk to me. Will that ever effect you? No, the odds of me coming across a car crash you are involved in are pretty much zero BUT if you generalise that to society then, yeah, the more people who stop because they've learned that's the right thing to do because they've seen others stand up for whats right online and in the real world the more likely it is that when you or someone you care about is in a crash that some doctor would stop because he or she has learnt to prioritise what's right over what's easy.

I do, of course, recognise that you aren't alone in that viewpoint Princep01. The fact that it is prevalent here is why I amn't AARing my current game. Why bother putting the time and effort in to AAR something that people will let be destroyed at a whim? No point at all.

I know that might come across as a bit preachy but I write as someone whose grandfather was in one of the German death camps in World War II and so really believes in the importance of holding the line of what is right whenever possible. If people had held the line in 1933 when Hitler first came into power then large swathes of my family mightn't have died in the last portion of WW2. Obviously FatR breaching the confidentiality of an AAR is a miniscule thing compared to the evil of Hitler BUT the point is that you prevent large evils by standing up and being counted when small evils happen ( at least that's my viewpoint ). It mightn't be easy and it mightn't be the best option individually in the short term but in the long term, collectively and individually it is our BEST chance of stopping the encroaching darkness of amorality engulfing society.

Sorry for the thread hijack Canoerebel. This is just something I feel really strongly about.
P.s. Thanks for the kind words, it really is appreciated.
P.p.s. Princep01, nothing personal, I just disagree with the decision you seem to have made and have tried to explain why. I hope it is taken in that spirit.

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Post #: 459

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/16/2011 11:54:39 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

China: Steve is indeed moving his stack of about 26 units into Changsha, which suits me as that's the best place I can fight. Forts are up to 4.97 and should reach 5 tomorrow. Allied AV is 3981 with about 600 more on the way. I hope he attacks and I hope it decimates his army. If it should decimate mine...well, I'd be hurting.

I've read recent posts on the forum about the ease or non-ease of taking China in a Scen2 game. I don't have the game map open to look around Changsha, so I'll just ask a couple of general questions.

1. Is AV the best way to look at your situation in China, given the supply state? Might it give over-confidence as to urban holding power?

2. Given #1, is it feasible to pull some of the stack a hex outside the city to allow the re-supply logic to flow toward them, even as their buds inside Changsha starve? Without looking at terrain I can't tell, but is it worthwhile to defend in depth along his approach path, using well-supplied, smaller "slow-down" stacks to eat into his momentum before he hits city forts? If you get some Chinese thrown out in front now, and they have any engineers, they have time to build entrenchment-type forts which have a lot of utility in static defenses.

I'd hate to see Changsha collapse in epic fashion for want of supply when "game supply" is available one hex away in the bush.

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Post #: 460

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/17/2011 12:06:22 AM

Nemo121

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Use the supply draw.

I've had over 5,000 AV in Changsha and no problems at all getting the supply there to keep them supplied.

You are shipping supply into Rangoon and overland into China aren't you????

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John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 461

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/17/2011 1:45:15 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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2/11/42

It's not often that I get an email from an opponent that says, "Ouch!", so I really enjoy them.

Eastern DEI: Several waves of Allied bombers sortied against what seemed to be a Mini-Mini-KB NE of Batavia (the two main Mini-KBs had pulled back, one NE and the other SE of Soerabaja). A Swordfish put a TT into Shoho early, followed later by two 1,000-pounders from Banshees (yay, they finally accomplished something!) followed by an evening TT or two from Swordfish that finished off the stricken ship. Steve had been playing with fire and it finally burned him. The only downside is that this alerts him to the risks so that he'll be more cautious in the future. Nevertheless, I think the American carriers might find an opportunity to strike Japanese carriers or battleships when they arrive in a few weeks (they're nearing Adelaide to refuel).

Western DEI: With the enemy already pulling carriers back, the Allies can continue running reinforcements into Benkolen and Oosthaven. Still no attack at Singapore.

Burma: The Allies have just vacated Rangoon (Nemo, I was running supply into there until about a week ago). Port Blair has 120 AV - enough to require serious attention from Japan when the time comes.

China: I had some troops forward from Changsha, but I didn't want to risk defeat in detail against what appeared to be a truly massive enemy army. So I pulled the forward echelons back while sending additional troops forward from other bases (Chengte, Kweilin, and Hengyang). I have full supply at the moment, plus 4241 AV and 5.02 forts. It would be truly shocking if the enemy had enough to take this base. I'll have to watch my right flank to make sure nothing happens there, but I think China is okay for now.

Luzon: The enemy tried to attack again - too soon after the prior repulse. The attack came off at 1:4, dropped forts to two, but cost Japan 156 infantry squads and 147 support squads. I'm out of supplies now, and forts dropping, but Clark should still hold for another week or so. Bataan is out of supply but will contribute 100 AV and three forts, so it should hold briefly after Clark falls.

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 462

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/17/2011 3:09:48 PM

paullus99

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Ouch is right - sacrificing a small number of obsolete planes for one of Japan's better light carriers, I'd say that's a great exchange on your part. Of course, you are right that this will probably do two things:

Slow him down & make him commit many more assets (which will take time to collect) when he does start moving.

If he does continue to push Southeast, he's going to have one eye over his shoulder - which will continue to work in your favor. His inability to close out the Luzon operation without taking too much time or cost him in disabled ground forces, will work against his near term operations - in both overall morale (his) and need to spend time recuperating his forces.

Any idea where the rest of the KB might be located? You identified Sho & Zhuk not too long ago - seen any sign of the rest? I would expect to see at least two or three heavy carriers make their appearance in the DEI soon enough - though perhaps he may discount his heavier carriers vulnerability against light Dutch AFs.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/17/2011 3:18:20 PM

John 3rd

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Well done. Even I don't sub-divide the little KB. Nice work.

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Post #: 464

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/17/2011 3:30:29 PM

FatR

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Oh well. I decided to see what happened here lately, and it seems this game is already nearly decided. The best Japanese can hope for, without Chez totally reevaluating his way of war - and probably even with it - is to take the roughly historical perimeter far, far behind the schedule, which is completely insufficient to mount a successful long-term defense, particularly against an opponent of Canoerebel's level. Palembang is approximately 66% likely to be completely ruined, which will also help to prevent any serious Phase 2 operations.

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Post #: 465

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/17/2011 10:31:13 PM

Canoerebel

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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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2/12/42

paulluss99: An xAKL just stumbled across Hiryu, Soryu and Haruna between Noumea and Fiji. I suspect Shokaku and Zuikaku are nearby. I haven't seen Akagi and Kaga, but surely there aren't far away, though I'm not positive since Steve is willing to split his carriers into divisions (more about that in a moment).

Eastern DEI: The Mini-KBs are retiring to Kendari. Kongo is at Kendari.

Western DEI: Reinforcements continue the run in to Sumatra from India.

China: Now that he sees that Changsha is stoutly defended, Steve is reconning Chengte, which is nearly vacant (one big infantry corps). I'm sure he's looking for flanking possibilites. I have more troops on the way to this area, though, and I have the luxury of the inside lines. So I think I can handle any flanking move towards Chengte. I'm more concerned about Kwiling/Liuchow, which are lightly defended.

Carrier Divisions: I think Steve enjoys simulating the real War in the Pacific. If so, he probably tries whenever possible to mimic historic actions/capabilities. If that's true, then the more non-historic his opponent's tactics, the less satisfied he's going to be with the game. This is just a hunch on my part. I can't figure out why else a player would divide carriers into small units and steam around in Indian country not knowing where the enemy carriers are. I tend to play more tailored to what I'm given, which isn't better or worse, but just the way I play, so at some point we may have some head-scratching and "what the hey?" moments. (Actually, we've already had a couple - the Dutch CL/DD raid on Babeldaob chiefly).

(in reply to FatR)

Post #: 466

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/18/2011 12:22:23 AM

bradfordkay

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"Carrier Divisions: I think Steve enjoys simulating the real War in the Pacific. If so, he probably tries whenever possible to mimic historic actions/capabilities. If that's true, then the more non-historic his opponent's tactics, the less satisfied he's going to be with the game. This is just a hunch on my part. I can't figure out why else a player would divide carriers into small units and steam around in Indian country not knowing where the enemy carriers are. I tend to play more tailored to what I'm given, which isn't better or worse, but just the way I play, so at some point we may have some head-scratching and "what the hey?" moments. (Actually, we've already had a couple - the Dutch CL/DD raid on Babeldaob chiefly). "

I will agree here. It is one of the reasons that he and I have been playing each other for so very long (played CHS through to August '44 when the pilot bug wiped out our rosters, forcing us to start our AE game). I don't think that your style of game is too "fantastic", Dan, but it is a little more free thinking than what he has become used to for the past four years.

As an example of his carrier operations, we just had a battle off Norfolk Island a couple of weeks ago. I saw that CarDiv5 (Shokaku, Zuikaku) were supporting a reinforcement convoy for that base and so I sent in the only carriers I had operating, Enterprise and Wasp (the other three are either getting repaired or upgraded, Hornet was sunk several months ago). My carriers hit CarDiv5 with 1000lbers while still out of range of his Kates in torpedo trim and then hammered the troop convoy at Norfolk Island in the afternoon. I was extremely lucky in that the AKagi and Hiryu were only about 80 nm further away but were unable or unwilling to react to my carriers. I lost a lot of SBDs over his fleet and TBFs in the attacks on the troop convoy (being protected by Hiryu A6Ms), so I ran away the next day. I've replaced my SBDs and TBFs (but lost a good many excellent pilots) and one of my subs claims to have finished off the Shokaku near the Belep Islands, but I don't believe it.

At any rate, he and I have both been willing to use two carriers in a combat group because we know that the other guy does the same as well. When you know that the other guy always keeps the KB intact, you can't play that way - but when you know that he divides his carriers among disparate missions you realize that you can do the same. It's part of the process of feeling out an opponent.

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fair winds,
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/18/2011 2:21:40 AM

Cribtop

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Scratch one Flat Top!

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/18/2011 3:01:21 PM

Canoerebel

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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Thanks, Brad.

This creates the potential for disagreements, because we may have differing views of how to play the game "right." Not that either side is right or wrong, but rather fundamentally different approaches may create dissatisfaction.

Steve is an easy-going guy who's a real treat to play with. But I can imagine him blanching when he finds out what the Allies have done in eastern Sumatra. Also, I am quite willing to strip the American carriers of aircraft to re-base them in the DEI. Lots of things like that may strike Steve as non-historical and not quite kosher.

On the other hand, I approach it as a vastly complex game with both sides taking what they are dealt and trying to figure out how best to win.

We haven't had any real difficulties thus far, but I'm kinda of worried that Steve prefers to think in the box while I've gone way outside. Let's see what happens.

On a separate note, I'm really enjoying this game. It's so vastly different from the game with Q-Ball. By pushing the envelope and defending forward, the game has taken on a tenseness and challenge-level all its own. And I still don't know if I've done the right things or evaluated things correctly. I've wandered out on a limb a bit and there's a chance Steve could saw it off behind me. But I like the view out here and think the limb is pretty solid.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/18/2011 3:39:06 PM

paullus99

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Every game is different - in this case, you are trying something that could be viewed as somewhat unconventional, but your job is also not to just roll-over & let the Japanese tear through the DEI without a fight. Historically, the allies did hope they could make a game of it in the DEI - the pace and professionalism of the Japanese advance prevented that, of course.

Your opponent has plenty to play with & should have the resources to push further than history - if he doesn't take advantage of it, it certainly isn't your fault. The game is still in play and is going to be bloody, no matter which way you slice it.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/18/2011 4:34:11 PM

bradfordkay

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In the case of the combination of Stringbags and A24s, Steve is quite used to seeing that. I have used that combination in the past to great results. In each of our games he has lost at least one CVL (a CVL and CVE in our present game) to that combination during his conquest of the SRA. That's why I posted the "Steve HATES Stringbags!" comment earlier. It looks like his record in that regard is continuing...

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/18/2011 5:42:46 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

On a separate note, I'm really enjoying this game. It's so vastly different from the game with Q-Ball. By pushing the envelope and defending forward, the game has taken on a tenseness and challenge-level all its own. And I still don't know if I've done the right things or evaluated things correctly. I've wandered out on a limb a bit and there's a chance Steve could saw it off behind me. But I like the view out here and think the limb is pretty solid.

I wonder if Steve researched your past AAR's and had a subconscious idea that your might do a Sir Robin and not defend forward. Many allied players don't defend forward and based on your last AAR neither do you. I was surprised myself. Funny thing is in your last AAR your were developing a bit of a fascination with Sumatra. I wouldn't want to see the look on his face when that first recon flight comes back.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/18/2011 5:49:22 PM

paullus99

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Biggest mistake militaries often make - training to fight the last war, instead of preparing for the next one. In this case, it could be that Canoerebel's opponent is assuming this fight will be like the last one - which in this particular case, becomes a mistake of utmost importance to the near-term future of the campaign.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/18/2011 6:16:35 PM

vettim89

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Every game is different - in this case, you are trying something that could be viewed as somewhat unconventional, but your job is also not to just roll-over & let the Japanese tear through the DEI without a fight. Historically, the allies did hope they could make a game of it in the DEI - the pace and professionalism of the Japanese advance prevented that, of course.

Your opponent has plenty to play with & should have the resources to push further than history - if he doesn't take advantage of it, it certainly isn't your fault. The game is still in play and is going to be bloody, no matter which way you slice it.

I do not think anyone could come up with a shred of evidence to suggest the Allies conceded the DEI to Japan. The swiftness and the effectiveness of the Japanese advance dictated the historical results. Knowing the historical result, many Allied players only put up a token reistance rather than risk losing forces needlessly to a lost cause. With that knowledge in hand, many Japan players rush forward with token forces that are poorly supported brushing aside the remnants the Allied player leaves behind. Lately we are seeing more and more Allied players fighting for the DEI or at least conduct a fighting withdraw. A well planned and executed Japanese offensive should still have little trouble rushing the DEI even if there are a few speed bumps; the Allied player only has so much to put in the way of the steamroller. However, when a poorly prepared Japan player goes against a stout Allied defense, you get a battle that looks like this one. It seems Chez may have planned on Brave Sir Robin (and maybe has only faced Sir Robin to this point). Confronted with a laager defense, he has pulled back and seems to be flumixed as to how to procede. I always loved the word laager and as it is a Dutch word it seems appropo.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/18/2011 6:54:28 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

I do not think anyone could come up with a shred of evidence to suggest the Allies conceded the DEI to Japan. The swiftness and the effectiveness of the Japanese advance dictated the historical results. Knowing the historical result, many Allied players only put up a token reistance rather than risk losing forces needlessly to a lost cause. With that knowledge in hand, many Japan players rush forward with token forces that are poorly supported brushing aside the remnants the Allied player leaves behind. Lately we are seeing more and more Allied players fighting for the DEI or at least conduct a fighting withdraw. A well planned and executed Japanese offensive should still have little trouble rushing the DEI even if there are a few speed bumps; the Allied player only has so much to put in the way of the steamroller. However, when a poorly prepared Japan player goes against a stout Allied defense, you get a battle that looks like this one. It seems Chez may have planned on Brave Sir Robin (and maybe has only faced Sir Robin to this point). Confronted with a laager defense, he has pulled back and seems to be flumixed as to how to procede. I always loved the word laager and as it is a Dutch word it seems appropo.

Aye, it's a matter of how much the Allies can slow down the Empire and how much it can make things cost them. The fewer resources IJ brings the longer it will take and quite possibly the more it will cost. They will get the DEI of course, but a stout defense means either they get it later or they have to start throwing the long ball in the Pacific later.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/18/2011 6:55:39 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Biggest mistake militaries often make - training to fight the last war, instead of preparing for the next one.

True, yes. But if you aren't prepared for the last war either then guys wielding clubs and wearing only loin clothes will smash your civilization.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/18/2011 7:22:23 PM

John 3rd

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Vettim is correct that serious, intelligent resistance in the DEI can really serve to throw a wrench into the Japanese Thrust. This becomes even more true when the offensive is attempted on the cheap (as appears here).

I'm willing to wager that Dan's opponent had read his earlier AAR and expected that style to be played. This highly aggressive, risk-taking play shown by CR has been magnificent and certainly caught the Japanese player flatfooted. It is atypical of Dan's recent campaigns and would have seriously thrown me (as a former opponent) for a serious loop...

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/18/2011 7:25:25 PM

Cribtop

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Dan,

IMHO there is significant historical precedent for both sides using CV air groups from land bases that this practice should not be considered ahistorical. The USN did it at Guad (admittedly in some cases planes from damaged CVs). The IJN moved all the planes from very functional Shokaku and Zuikaku and used them at Rabaul and Buna for months.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/18/2011 8:30:13 PM

Canoerebel

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2/13/42

Eastern DEI: Mini KBs have vanished from sight. Meanwhile, the American carriers have refueld at Adelaide and are steaming west. I hope I didn't scare off all the prey before I could strike a big blow, but methinks Steve will be back in some form or fashion.

Western DEI: The Indian engineers came ashore in good shape at Benkolen and are reporting for duty at Oosthaven. I have more engineers on the way, but some are very distant (enroute to Capetown from USA). Another Indian engineer unit will embark from Madras in a couple of days and is bound for Benkolen. I badly want to get engineers to Lahat and Prabaemolith, but it'll take time. Three Aussie brigades and a cav unit are enroute, though most are quite distant (Note to Nemo: I ultimately took your advice and routed one Aussie bgde to Sumatra rather than Port Blair). An Indian brigade arrives at Madras in four days and will be shipped forward. More BBs (two USN and two RN) are bound for the theater, though it'll take them awhile. I'm certainly contemplating a "savage the invasion" fleet plan that Nemo articulated in his AAR vs. One-Eyed Jacks. If the Allies can really mess up an invasion fleet so that it really impacts on the enemy's ability to proceed with the ground campaign, it would be worth a steep price. So I want my carriers and combat ships ready. Having enough fuel to handle them while awaiting developments will be challenging.

China: Steve is moving units from the Hengyang front north towards the Changsha front. I have the interior lines, so I can meet any such move, though I'm not quite sure exactly what his plan is yet. Chinese fort building at Changsha is really moving fast - already to 5.11.

Answering a Question Belatedly: Somebody asked whether Steve might be inclined to take advantage of the HQ assignment workaround to free up restricted troops. This wasn't part of our House Rules discussion, but I know he won't do it and neither will I.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 4/18/2011 10:11:15 PM

bradfordkay

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"It seems Chez may have planned on Brave Sir Robin (and maybe has only faced Sir Robin to this point). Confronted with a laager defense, he has pulled back and seems to be flumixed as to how to procede. I always loved the word laager and as it is a Dutch word it seems appropo. "

I can assure you that this is not the case. While I have not brought the British 18th Division or the AVG into the SRA I have always tried to find places where my NEI troops can stand and make themselves counted as tough fighters. In our CHS game Palembang ended up 80% demolished by the end of the fight, so in our present game I decided not to put so many forces into that location (the western Sumatra forces fought for that oil port up there instead). In retrospect this was a mistake, because the die rolls did not fall in my favor this time and Palembang was captured with no damage! I do wonder how Dan managed to transfer the CD units from Tarakan to Palembang, as I thought that those boys were permanently restricted.

I alway heavily invest in USAAF and RAF forces for the defense of the NEI but his Betties and the KB have managed to decimate my naval forces in the region, though not without cost to the baby KB.

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