RE: 4 Jan 1942 to 10 January 1942

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: 4 Jan 1942 to 10 January 1942

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RE: 4 Jan 1942 to 10 January 1942 - 4/3/2011 12:10:31 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

What is the timeline for DEI resources acquisition?

Forces are gathering now to capture the SRA. Ambon and Kendari are now in my hands. Tarakan and Balikpapn are next on the list along with Miri and Kuching. Java will wait until I capture Singapore. Palembang will be assaulted once I have about 500-600 AV plus lots of engineers available.

If all goes well the SRA should be totally in myhands within 4-6 weeks.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 121

RE: 11-18 Jan 1942 - 4/3/2011 3:55:05 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

11 January 1942

I-124 missed a nice big AP near Donggala.

AM Oriole continues to lead a charmed life. She is obviously a tripwire ship Dan has set up SW of Amchitka and she is playing that role well as twice now my ships have stumbled across her and fled! The good news is that I am about to land 250Av more onto Amchitka. Dan will have a very hard time dislodging them now. Shokaku and Zuikaku are patrolling 8 hexes south of Amchitka and re in postion to strike if need be. No activity seen on or around Adak. Pretty quiet in the great white north.... for the moment.

Continuing with bombing attacks throughout China, the PI and Malaya. Dan set a nice trap near Hengyang. An Ida and Lily unit lost its escort and stumbled on an element of the Flying Tigers. 13 of 15 Idas shot down and 4 of 6 Lilys also. Dan moves his fighters around a lot so I never know where they will show up.

36K+ of my troops with an AV value of 1435 marched across the river into Singapore. They were met by 38K+ of the enemy with an AV of 988. Resulting odds were 1:5. None of the 3 forts were brought down. I suffered 8500 casualties to 1800 defenders. Two of my inf rgt units took the brunt of the fighting were decimated. They need to be rebuilt from the bottom up. The survivors will rest for now. I am moving a few units from the north to reinforce.

My troops have moved into Alor Star and will assault next turn.

12 January 1942

Once again AM Oriole staves off 2 entire fleets!

Cat and mouse games continue around PH as Dan attempts to run my subs down.

I am resting my troops for a turn or two before assaulting Alor Star. Disruption and fatigue is up a bit.

My air attacks continue as before with the same result as before. Not many casualtied being inflicted.

Dan is bombarding my troops sitting at Singapore but no major casualties received.

13 January 1942

Nothing really new to report.

Directed multiple air strikes against the Alor Star defenders with good success. My troops will assault next turn.

My troops are ashore on Amchitka with interference. There does not appear to be any enemy units on Adak si I assume he is not building it up... yet.

14 January 1942

Lots of sub action.

I-124 sank the tanker Mindinao with 3 torps near Madjene.

I-21 missed the AP President Coolidge near San Diego. That would have been a nice feather in the cap.

I-153 sank the AP Rooseoom near Sampit. This was the AP that I-124 missed a few days earlier. She had troops onbaord and was sailing alone so those troops are lost.

I-166 sank the tanker Harpa near Waingapoe. She then turned around and sank the tanker Pinna near the same location.

SS Perch missed not one, not two but three opportunities against a supply TF near the Home Islands.

My troops retook Chumpon near Victoria Point. Dan's troops moved out of there back to Victoria Point.

My bombing attacks continue throughout the area. Clark is starting to lose troops to the aerial bombardment so may be running low on supply.

Two inf divs are on the way to the PI. As soon as I can get them to Clark, they will assault.

15 January 1942

I-122 sank a small AKL with troops aboard near Kalidjati.

Da sent a small group of bombers against the 104th Div in China. 200 casualties with only 12 bombers in a forest hex!

AM Oriole finally pair for her audacity as Shokaku's Vals made short work of her.

Chengchow fell so the rail line is now open from Manchuria to Wuchang. This will allow for a rapid redployment of troops in China as necessary.

Not much else to report. Just the usual air attacks.

16 January 1942

SS KX took a couple of hits while attempting to attack a troop convoy near Taliaboe.

A combined Dutch/British bomber force attacked my troop convoy unloading at Kendari without success. My troops are landing without problem however.

SS Permit attacked and sank the CM Saishu near Taihoku while she was escorting a supply convoy.

Japanese troops are landing at Cagayan. The place is lightly defended so should fall quickly.

My troops have also landed at Kavieng and will take the place next turn

Alor Star fell without difficulty. The defenders were driven eastward and now sit on my supply road near Pattani. Going to have to move a unit there to block them from moving into Pattani.

17 January 1942

Japanese troops have begun landing at Kendari.

Cagayan falls.

18 January 1942

I-156 found the CM Gouden Leeuw and sank her with torpedoes.

I-164 sank the AVP Merel east of Batavia.

Kavieng falls.

Kweiteh falls in China.

And Kendari is in now in Japanese hands.

It would appear that Dan is conducting a Sir Robin in much of the SRA. I've found very few defenders wherever I've landed. He may just be consolidating them somewhere.

I will be spreading out slowly in the Solomons. I have very limited troops there especially after sending 2 divisions to help take Clark. Once Clark falls, these 2 divisions will then reembark for the Solomons along with most of the 16th Army and whatever else I can get my hands on. Bataan will be allowed to wither on the vine. That means losing Manila as a port but it can't be helped. Too few troops to go around.

A multi-pronged operation is buidling for the southern SRA. Tarakan, Balikpapn, Koepang, Macassar and Lautern are all slated for landings in the very near future.

Java will wait until after Singapore has fallen. I don't have enough troops to do both.

A force of about 300 AV is headed up the trail towards Moulmein. They'll take what they can but their main purpose is to keep Dan honest.

_____________________________

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 122

RE: 11-18 Jan 1942 - 4/3/2011 4:32:43 AM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

36K+ of my troops with an AV value of 1435 marched across the river into Singapore. They were met by 38K+ of the enemy with an AV of 988. Resulting odds were 1:5. None of the 3 forts were brought down. I suffered 8500 casualties to 1800 defenders. Two of my inf rgt units took the brunt of the fighting were decimated. They need to be rebuilt from the bottom up. The survivors will rest for now. I am moving a few units from the north to reinforce.

Roughly what was the breakdown of destroyed versus disabled? Sometimes with river crossings I see a unit or two will get smeared but it's all disablements, that's why I'm asking.

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 123

RE: 11-18 Jan 1942 - 4/4/2011 7:30:15 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

36K+ of my troops with an AV value of 1435 marched across the river into Singapore. They were met by 38K+ of the enemy with an AV of 988. Resulting odds were 1:5. None of the 3 forts were brought down. I suffered 8500 casualties to 1800 defenders. Two of my inf rgt units took the brunt of the fighting were decimated. They need to be rebuilt from the bottom up. The survivors will rest for now. I am moving a few units from the north to reinforce.

Roughly what was the breakdown of destroyed versus disabled? Sometimes with river crossings I see a unit or two will get smeared but it's all disablements, that's why I'm asking.

The 113th Infantry Rgt took the brunt of the losses. It had 107 squads prior to crossing and 7 after, all disabled. I pulled it back to Johore Bharu for rest and refit.

Total losses for the IJA amounted to the following:
............(destroyed/disabled)
Squads .........201/201
Non-Combat ...72/378
Engineers..........0/8
Vehicle..............2/20

Allied Losses
...........(destroyed/disabled)
Squads ............3/141
Non-Combat ...15/250
Engineers..........1/18
Vehicle..............2/43

I expected a high disable rate but did not expect the high loss rate. I still hold a 300 AV advantage with other troops marching down the peninsula but I doubt I can muster much more than a 2:1 advantage when everything gets in place. That should be enough to bring down forts but there is no reserve so if I take a lot of losses, I will have to dredge every base for garrison forces and send them in.

If that is the case, the PI troops will be diverted once Clark falls to Java. I can't wait too long to take that place.

Chez

_____________________________

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 124

RE: 11-18 Jan 1942 - 4/4/2011 11:37:43 AM

madflava13

Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline

Combined divisions take less of a beating when shock attacking. It might be useful to combine your units attacking Singapore.

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 125

RE: 19-26 Jan 1942 - 4/11/2011 10:22:55 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

19 Jan 1942

Dan's subs continue to attack but withour success. This time SS Perch failed to score against a convoy near Nagoya.

Heavy Japanese air attacks continue against Clark and Singapore. The air attacks seem relatively ineffective except in China where even small raids seem to kill or disable Chinese troops. The difference is probably due to the forts at Clark and Singapore.

The Zuiho and Ryujo battlegroup along with the Taiyo and Hosho battlegroup are enroute the Java Sea in search of shipping. They are currently located NW of Singkawang.

I had several cargo ships in port Kendari waiting for tankers to arrive. Dan spotted them and sent a force of B-17s from Java to pay a visit. Unfortunately my AV support hasn't landed yet so the ships were withour air cover. 6 xAKs and a DD were hit. The xAKs will survive but the DD may not make it as she sits at 58% flot damage after 2 bomb hits.

Japanese troops entered western China and assaulted the 64th Chinese Corps just east of the border and received a bloody nose for their efforts. They'll stand where they are until additional forces can be found to help.

Allied troops at Clark continue to inflict decent casualties with their land bombardments. I have stopped my bombardments as I was taking twice as many casuatlies through conuterfire as I was inflicting.

20 January 1942

Dan's subs scored a success today. SS KXII found the Taiyo battlegroupnear Billiton and put 3 torpedoes into the CL Tama blowing her out of the water. This is the second CL lost in the war. CL Isuzu was sunk on 12/13/42 by a Brit sub.

The xAKL Dos Hermanos was found by the CL Natori and 3 DDs near Kai-eilanden and sunk.

Elements of the AVG and USAFFE fighters swept the CAP over Ryujo and Zuiho. 3 P-40s went down for the loss of 1 Zero. I do not think the sweep was the result of the escort losing contact with a raid and then continuing on to the target as they swept at 30,000 ft. A second sweep by the AVG at 30,000 ft resulted in the loss of a fighter each.

In the afternoon, 6 Blenheim IVs came out to play with one of my DDs near Billiton. They encountered Taiyo's CAP and lost 2 of their number with 2 others damaged.

The carrier battlegroups launched a series of air raids against shipping of the Java coast. 7 Zeros and 18 Kates attacked and sank the AP Van Landsberge near Batavia. A CAP of 15 Buffalo severely mauled the raid and shot down 14 Kates and 1 Zero. 2 Buffalos wwere lost. Only 4 Kates actually dropped weapons.

A second raid near Batavia found the xAP Rochussen and xAK Liran alone. 2 bombs hit the AP and and 4 the AK. Both sustained heavy damage and believed to have sunk. A CAP of 2 Buffalo was easily brushed aside by the escorts. 1 Kate was lost to them however.

A third raid then found the PC Formalhaut and AO TAN 1 without air cover near Samerang. The AO suffered 4 bomb hits and the PC 1. The AO sank.

A fourth raid found 2 xAPs and 2 xAKs near Batavia. 13 Zeros and 19 Kates sidestepped the CAP of 9 Buffalos with only a fighter each lost. The xAP Van Neck and xAP Le Maire were sunk with torpedoes.

The PC Formalhaut was again located and smothered with 3 bomb hits. She sank.

A 6th air raid attacked a small convoy near Batavia. The xAP Camphuys and xAKL Boelngan were sunk.

Allied artillary inflicted 117 casualties at Clark.

Overall, a good day for His Imperial Majesty's forces.

21 January 1942

BB Haruna and 4 CAs bombarded Singkawang and inflicted heavy damage to the facilities there.

Lots of sub action...

I-156 sighted several cruisers and their escorts fleeing south of Denpasar but was intercepted prior to shoot. She incurred minor damage from depth charges.

I-164 found the xAP Mijer near Batavia and sank her with torpedoes.

I-124 found the xAKL De Haan near Balikpapn and sank her with a torpedo.

A mixed force of Brit and Dutch bombers attempted to attack the Ryujo near Tjepoe. 2 P-40s and 2 bombers were shot down for no loss.

A second mixed force attempted to attack Zuiho but 4 B-339Ds and 1 Hudson were shot down for no loss.

4 B-17s attacked Ryujo without success. 1 B-17 was shot down and 2 damaged.

8 Zeros and 2 Kates found the xAKL Lee Sang near Soerabaja and sank her with a torpedo. A B-339D and 1 P-40 were shot down.

The xAKL Kanchow was sunk by Kates near Pamekasan. 1 P-40 was shot down for no loss.

A strike force of 12 Zeros and 15 Kates found 3 xAKLs near Soerabaja and sank two of them. The 3rd was left on fire. One P-40 was shot down. No Japanese losses were noted.

The SS O24 sank the APD Fuji with a torpedo near Kendari.

Dan pulled his forces out of Manila into Clark and left the city undefended. The 9th Infantry Rgt captured the city. The port and airfield are nice to have. Unfortunately, only I can only use the port to repair subs until Bataan falls.

22 January 1942

Allied and Japanese submarines attacked several convoys without success.

7 P-40s swept Ryujo's CAP again. No loss on either side was noted.

xAP Speelman was found and sunk by Kates from Zuiho near Makassar.

And of course, 12 Kates chose to attack 2 HDMLs near Denpasar instead of targeting the closer fleeing cruisers south of there.

3 B-17s attacked Ryujo without success. All B-17s were damaged.

Plans are underway for the invasion of New Caledonia. A second invasion force will take Luganville. This should happen within the next 7 days or so.

_____________________________

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 126

RE: 11 Dec 1942 - 4/16/2011 6:17:11 AM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
Nawww... in AE we get all the Essex class carriers as they were built. We get the option of renaming the Lexington II, Yorktown II, Hornet II and Wasp II as we wish (so if I don't lose any of those you will first see a USS Constellation - after that I have to figure out some other decent names to use).

I think it's an excellent opportunity to needle one's opponent with the next gen of Essex carriers that can be renamed. Were CR playing the Japs, I would strongly urge you to tap into his Southern Pride and needle him with the USS Sherman, USS Appomatox Courthouse, USS Grant and USS Gettysburg.

Alas, as an exclusive IJ player, I have not had the opportunity to do this.

quote:

crsutton

Thinking back on this... Dan is also a loyal Georgia Bulldog, so crsutton's idea of naming one USS Yellow Jacket might just hurt worse than USS Sherman!

EDIT: the problem is that Steve is playing the wrong side to get Dan's goat in this manner...

< Message edited by bradfordkay -- 4/16/2011 4:38:08 PM >

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 127

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/22/2011 8:49:28 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

It's been a long time since I updated this but not much has changed. As of 20 Feb 42, Manila and Singapore continue to resist despite constant air bombardment.

Some progress has been made in the southern SRA and in New Caledonia. The first carrier of the war to be lost was sunk by land based bombers. China is slowly coming together though the difficult part hasn't begun there yet.

First let me recap some of the action in the past 4 weeks.

Philippines:
Clark has been assaulted from the air and land for the past 4 weeks. A total of 5 divisions plus support units with a combind AV of 2992 have now conducted 3 ground attacks. Odds started at 1:4 with level 4 forts but are now 1:2 with 0 forts remaining. Progress has been slow as I have had to withdraw decimated units to Manila for rebuilding. Clark appears to now be out of supply but my last attack resulted in 5000 casualties and only 1800 to allied troops. The troops will rest for a day and then attack again.

On Mindinao, Dan recaptured Cotabatu late in January but has since left the city for the mountainous area in the middle of the island. I will leave him to starve there.

Malaya:
Singapore continues to be attacked from the air but the results have been very disappointing. Even attacking the airfield with 200+ bombers does little good as damage has yet to exceed 50%. On 30 Jan, Dan brought in about 40 fighters and caused havoc amongst my bomber force as nearly all of my fighters failed to join up and returned to base. Over 30 bombers shot down. I have one more division enroute Mersing and then overland to Singapore then the main assault will begin. I currently have 2600 AV vs 1030 AV at Singapore but his forts remain strong. Once Clark falls, I may bring additional divisions from there if needed.

SRA:
From late January through 11 Feb, the IJN had 3 carrier TFs consisting of the Zuiho, Ryujo, Shoho, Hosho and Taiho operating in Java Sea and west of Java. Shoho operating alone in the north Java Sea, Taiho and Hosho operating in the south Java Sea and Zuiho and Ryujo operating west of Java. They sank upwards of a dozen ships between them.

The IJN conducted several naval raids with strong surface forces against Tarakan and Balikpapn. They sank over 20 ships including several APs

2 Feb CL Caledon torped by I-165 but believed to remain afloat.

Makassar and Koepang were both captured in early Feb.

One thing of note. Recon has indicated Dan has 45 units located at Palembang. HE apparently will make a stand there. It's a good place to stand as Palembang is very important to the Japanese but not crucial. This means Java should be relatively undefended. My plan is to contain his forces there until after I capture the SRA and Darwin. I will need to land strong forces at Oosthaven and at Padang to limit his movements should he choose to conduct any raids.

Burma:
Rangoon fell undefended on 2/17. Recon has not found any troops in southern Burma. I have to bring in some aviation support to Rangoon to finish reconning Burma but it's beginning to look like he either pulled his troops back into India or sent them to Sumatra.

4th Fleet:
Nauru and Ocean Island were captured. Amchitka is alive and well with Mavis' patrolling the seas. Only activity noted is a few supply shuttles into Adak.

SE Fleet:
Invasion forces landed on New Caledonia on 2/7 and 2/8 and made short work of the defenders. Koumac and Noumea are now in my hands. Luganvilleville, Efate and Tanna have also been taken.

KB has been patrolling the seas between Noumea and Fiji with an occasional sojourn to Noumea. 2-3 pickets have been sunk by KB.

Dan has a habit of using civillian merchants for pickets and am finding that a bit a historical plus there are game issues with it. It may even be borderline gamey. See my notes below.

I am still severely limited by my earlier losses of IJA and IJN land units however the situation is now improving. Recon indicates that Suva is very lightly defended so forces are now gathering for that adventure.

China:
I have gathered over 5000 AV at Changsha... as many as I could find in China but Dan has a total AV of 4900+ so I will withdraw from Changsha and find a different route to Chunking. I am mopping up the remaining Chinese troops between Shanghai, Canton and Changsha as Dan keeps cutting the rail lines. Its a bit like playing "Whack-a-mole".

Ships Sunk:

1/24
AL PT-47, 48 and TM-9 by naval gunfire near Balikpapn

1/25
AL xAP Siberg by Long Lance near Tandjoengselor
AL xAP Van Diemen by Long Lance near Tandjoengselor
AL xAP Van Riebeek by naval gunfire near Tandjoengselor
AL xAKL Bordvik by naval gunfire near Tandjoengselor
AL xAKL Proteus by naval gunfire near Tandjoengselor

1/26
AL xAKL De Klerk by I-121 near Bandjermasin

2/2
AL xAKL Morazan by carrier aircraft near Rossel Island
AL Tm-4 and TM-6 by naval gunfire near Makassar

2/3
AL TM-5, Tm-7 and TM-8 sunk by naval gunfire near Balikpapn
AL xAKL Patris by naval gunfire near Balikpapn
AL xAKL Wollongbar by naval gunfire near Balikpapn
AL xAKL Ipoh by naval gunfire near Balikpapn
AL xAKL Lyemun by naval gunfire near Balikpapn
AL xAKL Marudu by naval gunfire near Balikpapn
AL xAKL Tatung by naval gunfire near Balikpapn
AL xAKL Bust by naval gunfire near Balikpapn
AL xAKL Surigao by carrier aircraft near Lakatoro
AL ML No.423 by carrier aircraft near Pare Pare

2/5
IJ xAP Buenas Aires Maru by land-based aircraft near Makassar

2/7
AL CL Dragon by I-121 near Sampit
AL xAK Idaho by I-121 near Lahaina

2/9
AL PT Q-112 sunk by naval gunfire near Tarakan
AL xAKL Meroendoeng by naval gunfire near Tandjoengselor

2/11
IJ CVL Shoho sunk by land-based bombers near Kalidjati

2/13
AL xAK City of Delhart by I-17 near Kona

2/14
AL BB Arizona reported sunk this date at posit 195,110 near Hilo by 800kg bomb (ship was damaged during 12/7 PH strike... not sure of accuracy of this report)
AL PT-45 sunk by naval gunfire near Maumere

2/16
AL SS Tarpon by DC near Tockangbesi-eilanden (prob false report)

2/18
AL xAK Lena Luckenbach by I-21 near San Clemente

AIrcraft Losses
IJ
55 lost in A-A, 25 to flak. Total for all type losses 253
Allied
66 lost to A-A, 6 to flak. Total for all type losses 154

Notes:
(1) STRATEGY:
In regards to achieving auto victory, it's now highly unlikely. I am about 30 days behind schedule and falling further and further behind. I have had to commit my NZ forces to the PI due to the stubborn defence there. My planned invasions of NZ and Australia are currently being reconsidered. My early losses of nearly every land combat unit available at the start hurt badly. Fortunately, he has not conducted any more raids on my shipping after losing several cruisers from my surface forces.

I will take Fiji however. This will make it more difficult for him to conduct any kind of offensive originating from Australia into the Coral Sea theater of ops. He can still attack through the Marshalls but this brings him with range of my Netties and leaves him open to flanking attacks by KB from Fiji.

I am looking at eastern India. That may be more doable and will definitely buy more time to build up the SRA. I have not seen his carriers yet. I have a funny feeling that he may have sent them into the IO just in case I go after India as any invasion by the Japanese there will require a massive amount of sea lift and will force a major committment of my naval forces.

Then again he may have left his carriers in the Pacific in the hopes I do go after India. That would leave the front door open to any carrier raids and I would be hard pressed to respond to any invasion in Centpac.

(2) PICKETS: I think that using civillian ships in this manner IRL would have resulted in direct disobdience if not outright mutiny by these crews. Neither the Japanese nor Allies used civillian ships in this manner. This is what submarines are for. The Japanese did have radios installed in various fishing vessels but these were not picket ships per se. I probably wouldn't object to using small naval vessels in this manner. But this is not my main concern.

My biggest concern is the bleeding of aircraft sorties and torpedoes from my carriers. I have no control over who they attack and they will attack any vessel within range. You can't stop it unless you stand down the bombers. You might as well leave them in port then. In attacks on 3 pickets, the number of sorties available to KB was reduced by 20%. This could be disastrous if his carriers should up. Fortunately, the only Kate unit to launch arrived over the target after it had been sunk so I didn't lose any torpedoes.

If his carriers show up after KB's sorties and torps have been reduced by his pickets, I will have no problem throwing the BS flag.

(3) SHOHO: I have copied the appropriate combat reports below concerning the attacks on the Shoho. A total of 10 attacks against the TF were noted with 5 of these occurring in the Am and 5 in the PM. 8 of the attacks occurred while Shoho was still afloat and the remaining 2 were against the remaining ships in the TF. 3 of the 8 attacks were fighter sweeps without bombers. But in every case bombers were present, EVERY fighter is listed as sweeping at various altitudes from 10K to 25K feet. None are noted as escorts.

Her CAP was overwhelmed by the first 2 fighter sweeps. These SAME fighter units swept the fleet over and over and over. The AVG in particular executed at least 6 separate sweeps with and without bombers against the TF with Buffalos and P-39s doing the same conducting even more.

So the question is: How can this be? How can the SAME fighters sweep over and over and over? And against a TF no less. I could understand if the fighters became separated from their bombers and proceeded onto the target but no message was ever received to that effect during replay. I've replayed it 3 times now to make sure. But even that doesn't explain how the SAME fighters conducted multiple sweeps during the same combat phase. And then be able to do it again in the afternoon phase!

Could setting the fighters to escort missions with different altitudes cause this? If I understand bomber escorts correctly, they should automatically adopt an altitude slightly above the bombers.

Could using LRCAP cause this? I know that using LRCAP can sometimes cause fighters to appear on the combat screen during replay but they don't participate in the combat... at least I have never seen them do so.

Something is wrong here. Very, very wrong. I have never seen this happen before this game with Dan. This has never happened in my game with Brad.

So is it something Dan is doing? Is it something in scenario 2? Or is it something from the latest patch?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Kalidjati at 53,97

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18

Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 34
Buffalo I x 7
Swordfish I x 12
139WH-3 x 2
P-39D Airacobra x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
H81-A3: 1 destroyed
Buffalo I: 1 destroyed
Swordfish I: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Torpedo hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x Swordfish I launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Mk XII Torpedo
13 x H81-A3 sweeping at 25000 feet
2 x 139WH-3 bombing from 8000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 300 kg SAP Bomb
5 x P-39D Airacobra sweeping at 10000 feet
3 x H81-A3 sweeping at 25000 feet
4 x Buffalo I sweeping at 16000 feet *

CAP engaged:
Shoho-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 9 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Kalidjati at 53,97

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 2

Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 23
Buffalo I x 23
139WH-3 x 13
CW-21B Demon x 9
75A-7 Hawk x 4
L-212 x 3
A-24 Banshee x 3
P-39D Airacobra x 20

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
A-24 Banshee: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x H81-A3 sweeping at 25000 feet
3 x 139WH-3 bombing from 8000 feet
Naval Attack: 3 x 300 kg SAP Bomb
4 x 139WH-3 bombing from 8000 feet
Naval Attack: 3 x 300 kg GP Bomb
3 x 139WH-3 bombing from 8000 feet
Naval Attack: 3 x 300 kg SAP Bomb
3 x 139WH-3 bombing from 8000 feet
Naval Attack: 3 x 300 kg SAP Bomb
3 x L-212 bombing from 8000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 50 kg GP Bomb
3 x A-24 Banshee bombing from 8000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
11 x P-39D Airacobra sweeping at 10000 feet
8 x H81-A3 sweeping at 25000 feet
8 x Buffalo I sweeping at 16000 feet *

CAP engaged:
Shoho-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Kalidjati at 53,97

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 22
Buffalo I x 4
B-339D x 1
P-39D Airacobra x 12

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x H81-A3 sweeping at 25000 feet
7 x P-39D Airacobra sweeping at 10000 feet
8 x H81-A3 sweeping at 25000 feet
4 x Buffalo I sweeping at 16000 feet *

Carrier support unable to supply air cover..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Kalidjati at 53,97

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 41 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes

Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 22
Buffalo I x 4
A-24 Banshee x 9
P-39D Airacobra x 7
P-40E Warhawk x 14

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
DD Hatsuharu

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x H81-A3 sweeping at 25000 feet
6 x A-24 Banshee releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
3 x A-24 Banshee releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
7 x P-39D Airacobra sweeping at 10000 feet
8 x H81-A3 sweeping at 25000 feet
4 x Buffalo I sweeping at 16000 feet *

Carrier support unable to supply air cover..
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CVL Shoho

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Kalidjati at 53,97

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 22
Buffalo I x 4
A-24 Banshee x 6
P-39D Airacobra x 7

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Kuri

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x H81-A3 sweeping at 25000 feet
6 x A-24 Banshee bombing from 8000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
7 x P-39D Airacobra sweeping at 10000 feet
8 x H81-A3 sweeping at 25000 feet
4 x Buffalo I sweeping at 16000 feet *

Carrier support unable to supply air cover..
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CVL Shoho

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Kalidjati at 53,97

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 28 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Allied aircraft
Buffalo I x 11
P-39D Airacobra x 6

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x P-39D Airacobra sweeping at 10000 feet
11 x Buffalo I sweeping at 16000 feet *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Kalidjati at 53,97

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 35 NM, estimated altitude 26,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 4
P-39D Airacobra x 5

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x H81-A3 sweeping at 25000 feet
5 x P-39D Airacobra sweeping at 10000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Kalidjati at 53,97

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
Swordfish I x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Swordfish I: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Swordfish I launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Mk XII Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Kalidjati at 53,97

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Allied aircraft
139WH-3 x 10
CW-21B Demon x 9
75A-7 Hawk x 4
L-212 x 3
P-39D Airacobra x 8
P-40E Warhawk x 14

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
DD Hatsuharu
DD Kuri

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x 139WH-3 bombing from 8000 feet
Naval Attack: 3 x 300 kg SAP Bomb
4 x 139WH-3 bombing from 8000 feet
Naval Attack: 3 x 300 kg SAP Bomb
3 x 139WH-3 bombing from 8000 feet
Naval Attack: 3 x 300 kg SAP Bomb
3 x L-212 bombing from 8000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 50 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Kalidjati at 53,97

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Allied aircraft
A-24 Banshee x 6
P-39D Airacobra x 5

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
DD Kuri
DD Hatsuharu

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x A-24 Banshee releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x A-24 Banshee releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------

Chez

< Message edited by ChezDaJez -- 4/22/2011 8:51:10 AM >

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Post #: 128

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/22/2011 3:39:42 PM

offenseman

Posts: 768
Joined: 2/24/2007
From: Sheridan Wyoming, USA
Status: offline

2) I too have issues with using civilian vessels as pickets, especially at that stage of the war. Commanders at that point were hard pressed to move enough articles of war because of a lack of hulls. They also did not have the advantage of knowing that a gazillion Liberty ships were going to be built later, making the sacrifice of good hulls to picket duty, meaningless. Of course this is scenario 2 and against history in its own right. Maybe they have an excess of hulls even at that early date.

Where are these pickets being set up? Is it possible to send in small, fast SCTFs to smash them? I would think that if he loses enough of them, that he will discontinue the practice.

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Sometimes things said in Nitwit sound very different in English.

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Post #: 129

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/22/2011 4:26:55 PM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline

Steve, that is a great question as to how the same unit managed to run multiple sweeps in one day. I've never seen such a thing...

However, the Shoho is merely your requisite CVL loss in the early going in the SRA. I believe that this is now the third game in a row where you have lost one in that area...

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fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to offenseman)

Post #: 130

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/22/2011 6:55:36 PM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Steve, that is a great question as to how the same unit managed to run multiple sweeps in one day. I've never seen such a thing...

However, the Shoho is merely your requisite CVL loss in the early going in the SRA. I believe that this is now the third game in a row where you have lost one in that area...�

I do have a nasty habit of losing a CVL in that area, don't I?

Chez

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Post #: 131

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/22/2011 8:22:37 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Steve, that is a great question as to how the same unit managed to run multiple sweeps in one day. I've never seen such a thing...

However, the Shoho is merely your requisite CVL loss in the early going in the SRA. I believe that this is now the third game in a row where you have lost one in that area...�

Sweeps, of course, are not an available mission type in naval attacks. In my experiecne USN CVs will sometimes send fighters on sweeps, without bombers or TBs, over sighted enemy TFs. They can't attack and don't, but the player does get a solid TF make-up report. These are un-ordered missions in that they are not fighters which got separated from naval strikes.

In my experience LBA fighters don't often (ever?) run sweeps in this way, but the code marks their operations as sweeps in the reports when they do get separated or are uncoordinated with the attackers. In that sense I don't think you can fault CR. He ordered escorted naval LBA attacks, and got what the code gave him. To my knowledge, Scen 2 makes no executable code changes at all. The only changes are in the OOB.

In terms of the carrier CAP being overwhelmed, I have to say that sending a lone CVL-sized carrier, at any point in the war, near enough to LBA to get the numbers of attackers seen here is more the fault of the carrier-driver than the carrier-attacker. I suspect that the first torpedo strike might have taken the CAP off-line, and there was no help. Those Banshees are very good early DBs for the Allies, and they can move around the theater with abandon. A Japanese player has to expect them to show up anywhere, and they have good pilots, good range, and good up-time. They do go away pretty early, but while they're in-theater they are among the best tools an Allied player has in that part of the map.

As far as pickets, CR uses them a lot and has always done so. As far as them being gamey, that might be a good topic to discuss with him. I know him pretty well from past AARs, and he doesn't pull gamey rabbits out of hats. IOW, he isn't using pickets to bleed sorties only to flood that zone with follow-on CV activity after he's hamstrung you. He doesn't think or play that way.

He is always willing to discuss rules and rule-play. But he also tends to get his potential beefs out in HRs, and does what the code allows after that. (He was a courtroom litigator, so . . .) He most certainly is not guided or restricted by what he thinks an historical commander or crews would have allowed or refused to do. My sense is your other game with your other opponent has run on more mutually-agreed historical lines. Again, this might be a good time to e-mail CR on this and reach agreement.

My two cents.

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The Moose

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 132

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/23/2011 8:56:02 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
Her CAP was overwhelmed by the first 2 fighter sweeps. These SAME fighter units swept the fleet over and over and over. The AVG in particular executed at least 6 separate sweeps with and without bombers against the TF with Buffalos and P-39s doing the same conducting even more.

So the question is: How can this be? How can the SAME fighters sweep over and over and over? And against a TF no less. I could understand if the fighters became separated from their bombers and proceeded onto the target but no message was ever received to that effect during replay. I've replayed it 3 times now to make sure. But even that doesn't explain how the SAME fighters conducted multiple sweeps during the same combat phase. And then be able to do it again in the afternoon phase!

Could setting the fighters to escort missions with different altitudes cause this? If I understand bomber escorts correctly, they should automatically adopt an altitude slightly above the bombers.

Could using LRCAP cause this? I know that using LRCAP can sometimes cause fighters to appear on the combat screen during replay but they don't participate in the combat... at least I have never seen them do so.

Something is wrong here. Very, very wrong. I have never seen this happen before this game with Dan. This has never happened in my game with Brad.

So is it something Dan is doing? Is it something in scenario 2? Or is it something from the latest patch?

I believe there were some adaptions to how the aircraft on operations in a certain area are displayed.

What is a fact (already pre patch): aircraft on CAP can show up on a combat report in case they are in the same area as the combat taking place, both, if they participate in the action
or whether they only are in the same location. This also applies to aircraft on LRCAP.
I have long ago abandoned the point of view that any combat displays things happening in a single hex exclusively. What you see is action spreading through several hexes depending on
the position of planes, the range settings of CAP, the detection range and other missions taking place close to the mission in question.

This makes much sense to me. What does it help to be able to detect a strike at 160nm (4 hexes away) if the combat still only takes place in the target hex?

Your situation over the carriers could have well been caused by LRCAP/CAP at higher range settings.

If this is the case everythings fine. Keep an eye on it, I am looking for such occasions too, many things can be explained by comparing the combat report
with individual action in the combat replay. This does not rule out the possibility a small glitch in the A2A combat but up to now I have yet to find a behaviour
which lacks explanation.

One easy identifier for me is always: When you see the same number of planes displayed in the combat report, do an accurate check on whether these planes
in the same numbers actually participate in combat in the combat replay.
Up to now I was able to rule out that these numbers really participated in every single combat (compared to the numbers in the combat report) every single action.
What you then see is the planes are displayed in the replay but either don�t participate at all or the replay is over after 1-2 engagements.

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Post #: 133

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/23/2011 9:52:09 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

quote:

As far as pickets, CR uses them a lot and has always done so. As far as them being gamey, that might be a good topic to discuss with him. I know him pretty well from past AARs, and he doesn't pull gamey rabbits out of hats. IOW, he isn't using pickets to bleed sorties only to flood that zone with follow-on CV activity after he's hamstrung you. He doesn't think or play that way.

I want to be clear... I am not in any way, shape or form accusing Dan of using gamey tactics. His style and mine are just different. Indeed, I find him to be a very good player who is willing to discuss things. We have talked about this issue and he and I see things a bit differently. I have no problem with pickets per se but find the use of civillian vessels ahistorical. I simply can not believe that the allies would order civillian merchant vessels to perform such services on a routine basis. I would feel much more confortable if he used small naval vessels or submarines. Submarines are especially suited to this role. I understand that he uses pickets as early warning due to the game's limited intel available to the allies concerning Japanese naval movements and that his intention is not to bleed off sorties or torpedoes..

But that is exactly my main concern... the bleeding off of sorties and torpedoes from my carriers. Dan mentioned that he hadn't really appreciated that point until I brought it up. I have not asked him to stop using pickets nor will I. I hope that he will reduce the use of them in areas that are less critical to his defense but if he doesn't, well c'est la vie. It's not a point that I will argue over unless something drastic happens that severely reduces my carriers ability to respond to his carriers should there be an encounter.

Again, I am not accusing Dan of doing anything gamey. I am enjoying this game despite my occasional bitchin'. Dan schooled me hard in the first few weeks of the game but I learn fast. His surface raiders finally got what was coming to them so now he doesn't do that anymore. Now he just blows my bombers out of the air when I least expect it.

Ah, the joys of getting my butt handed to me on a platter!

Chez

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Post #: 134

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/23/2011 10:31:54 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

quote:

One easy identifier for me is always: When you see the same number of planes displayed in the combat report, do an accurate check on whether these planes
in the same numbers actually participate in combat in the combat replay.
Up to now I was able to rule out that these numbers really participated in every single combat (compared to the numbers in the combat report) every single action.
What you then see is the planes are displayed in the replay but either don�t participate at all or the replay is over after 1-2 engagements.

You will note from the combat report that every fighter unit present was sweeping and the AVG aircraft participated in each and every sweep. They shot down my fighters. I think the P-39s got one or two also.

I've seen the replays where LRCAP will show up on the replay but not participate in the combat. This was not the case here. All fighters participated. They shot mine down and a few were shot down in return.

I do not know how this happened but I do know it happened.

Chez

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Post #: 135

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/23/2011 10:57:57 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

The combat report tells you about all units in vincinity.
The combat replay tells you about single aircraft engaging single aircraft by the combat animations, not by the numbers of planes listed beneath the aircraft symbols.

Unless you can see in the combat replay that every single fighter of the units listed, so 23 or more Buffalo battles, 34 or more H81-A3 battles, had A2A action in
every single combat replay you could draw entirely different conclusions on how many fighters did battle. Is that what you saw?

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Post #: 136

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/23/2011 5:35:00 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

I want to be clear... I am not in any way, shape or form accusing Dan of using gamey tactics. His style and mine are just different. Indeed, I find him to be a very good player who is willing to discuss things. We have talked about this issue and he and I see things a bit differently.

Talking it over is the key, so good for you both.

I agree without reservation that merchant pickets are ahistorical. I too had never considered their sortie-draining aspects. I agree that Allied intel is way too low versus history. Submarines can be substituted a bit, but the game still can't model submarine CO initiative in following intel leads. It's restricted to the patrol zone hexes.

OTOH, as long as he uses xAKLs you can have "free" VPs as well as reduce his inventory of these highly useful little vessels. The Allies don't get more, so throwing them away on picket duty means fewer are available for those low-DL sneak-and-dump missions that can sometimes save a secondary island, or get a key base back over the aircraft resupply limit of 20k. I don't think those aspects balance out against sortie-sucking, but they aren't nothing either.

If you get a chance, could you post a pic of your resource situation, especially Oil and Fuel?

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Post #: 137

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/23/2011 7:27:01 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

One easy identifier for me is always: When you see the same number of planes displayed in the combat report, do an accurate check on whether these planes
in the same numbers actually participate in combat in the combat replay.
Up to now I was able to rule out that these numbers really participated in every single combat (compared to the numbers in the combat report) every single action.
What you then see is the planes are displayed in the replay but either don�t participate at all or the replay is over after 1-2 engagements.

You will note from the combat report that every fighter unit present was sweeping and the AVG aircraft participated in each and every sweep. They shot down my fighters. I think the P-39s got one or two also.

I've seen the replays where LRCAP will show up on the replay but not participate in the combat. This was not the case here. All fighters participated. They shot mine down and a few were shot down in return.

I do not know how this happened but I do know it happened.

Chez

I hear you, Chez. I've experienced this in my games as well, but my longest-standing PBEM partner uses them (small military vessels) sparingly and in a reasonable region (not pushing them forward unrealistically). He doesn't use them to soak up CV sorties, so I don't have an issue with the way he's doing this.

If you can, send a singleton DD out for a turn in this area with a patrol zone overlapping the AMc or xAKL. Alternatively, send a submarine to patrol the area where the xAKL is spotted. Once he starts losing a number of these useful vessels, he'll either decrease their numbers or conduct his reconnaisance with something more capable of taking care of itself.

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Post #: 138

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/23/2011 7:43:42 PM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
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Changed my opinion on that topic too, I havent found it gamey to patrol WC with AKL�s as a prewarning system.
But I agree, no crew will accept that task easily.

They are already on the way back to SF in my PBEM.

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Post #: 139

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/23/2011 8:18:10 PM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Changed my opinion on that topic too, I havent found it gamey to patrol WC with AKL�s as a prewarning system.
But I agree, no crew will accept that task easily.

They are already on the way back to SF in my PBEM.

Using merchant pickets to guard the WC and the sealanes to Hawaii would be a sensible use of these ships as they would respresent normal shipping traffic between these locations. Even to the South Pacific and between NZ and Australia would be generally aceptable.

The Java Sea is a different matter. It is a contested sea but Dan still holds Borneo so shipping could be expected to be found there. No problem.

Where I differ with Dan is sending them into the Coral Sea to act as a tripwire. I'm pretty sure the ships would have no reason for being there other than to act as a tripwire. The same with sending them to operate SW of Amchitka to spot my supply and naval TFs.

Bottom line to me is if the ship would have a reasonable reason for being there outside of spotting my naval forces then I do not consider them a tripwire. If they are in an area where no legitimate purpose exists other than to report my naval TF movements, then I consider that an ahistorical use of them.

Dan has not used them as much in this regard lately so their usefullness may be waning as I expand the empire. I have not seen any SW of Amchitka or the Coral Sea for the past two weeks. I have also sunk a lot of his AKLs and AKs, 56 of them are on the sunk ship list. Only a small portion of these were actually engaged in picket duty maybe 10-12 total. So that may be another reason or he may just be more sensitive to my whining!

Bullwinkle, I'll try to post a screen shot of the industry screen. So far everything is ok and I have plenty of resources and oil... for the moment.

Chez

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Post #: 140

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/23/2011 8:48:30 PM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

The combat report tells you about all units in vincinity.
The combat replay tells you about single aircraft engaging single aircraft by the combat animations, not by the numbers of planes listed beneath the aircraft symbols.

Unless you can see in the combat replay that every single fighter of the units listed, so 23 or more Buffalo battles, 34 or more H81-A3 battles, had A2A action in
every single combat replay you could draw entirely different conclusions on how many fighters did battle. Is that what you saw?

I know the difference here. I've played the game long enough to know. I did most of the research for Japanese aircraft during AE's development along with a considerable amount of beta testing of the air combat routines.

It is impossible to determine whether all fighters actually engaged in combat from the replay as even counting the number of fights is misleading as some fighters attack more than once during a combat resolution phase. The 75A-7 Hawks and CW-21B Demons did not engage and were probably on LRCAP. They did show up on the CR and the replay but they did not fire. All other fighter types did participate in combat.

And again, I have never seen this before in my games with Brad, only with Dan. I do not have a problem with this. Indeed I want to be able to do this as I have never understood the game limitation of not being able to sweep an enemy CVTF. You can sweep a land base, why not a sea base?

The best rationale I can come up with is that this was caused by Dan's use of multiple altitudes for his fighters, intentionally or unintentionally. Each of his fighter types were assigned a different altitude from 10K to 25K feet. Could this do it? Or did he simply set them to sweep without a target? Dan said they were set to escort. If set to escort, fighters are supposed to automatically take a position a few thousand feet above the bombers. In this case, they didn't. I generally set my fighters to the same altitude as the bombers so as to reduce the chances of the escorts getting lost. I assume a different altitude setting for fighters may increase the chances of them becoming separated from the bombers. If separated, the fighters then have two choices: return to base or continue onto the target. His obviously continued onto the target. But they also arrived in the same combat resolution as the Swordfish so what actually happened?

My main point here is I want to understand how this occurred. Can a player deliberately cause this to happen and if so, how?

Chez

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Post #: 141

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/23/2011 8:56:24 PM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

Bullwinkle, hopefully, this will upload ok.

This is a screenshot of my production screen showing oil and resources. The date is 23 Feb 1942.

Chez

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ChezDaJez -- 4/23/2011 8:57:42 PM >

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Post #: 142

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/23/2011 9:14:06 PM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

I did not doubt your expertise. I just wanted to make sure we are talking about the same thing.

After the last patch Iain posted a thread in the general discussion, providing not much information but asking if anybody
noticed changes to the air combat model.
I believe I noticed changes in some areas, this might be one of them.

Influence is complex and easy at the same time I think:
One part still is coordination and how you can prevent or enforce it. Both is valuable depending on the situation.
Another part is detection range, there was a bug in ground based radar and it was resolved in one of the recent patches. How long it has been there I cannot say, but
such a bug removed could change a lot.

Canorebel talks much about operational stuff as you know from reading his AARs, but not so much about actual combat.
Hes a very experinced player, so it could well be that he found something. What it is I don�t know but if he found something I�d like
to find out too.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 4/23/2011 9:15:02 PM >

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Post #: 143

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/23/2011 9:32:00 PM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I did not doubt your expertise. I just wanted to make sure we are talking about the same thing.

After the last patch Iain posted a thread in the general discussion, providing not much information but asking if anybody
noticed changes to the air combat model.
I believe I noticed changes in some areas, this might be one of them.

Influence is complex and easy at the same time I think:
One part still is coordination and how you can prevent or enforce it. Both is valuable depending on the situation.
Another part is detection range, there was a bug in ground based radar and it was resolved in one of the recent patches. How long it has been there I cannot say, but
such a bug removed could change a lot.

Canorebel talks much about operational stuff as you know from reading his AARs, but not so much about actual combat.
Hes a very experinced player, so it could well be that he found something. What it is I don�t know but if he found something I�d like
to find out too.

I haven't read any of Dan's AARs since we started the game. I didn't want to avail myself of any of his previous strategies.

He is a cunning player and I'm still trying to figure out what I'm going to do about Palembang where he only has 45 units!!!

Given his resourcefulness, he may very well have found something in the air combat routines that can be exploited. As I said, I want to know how to do it too. I liken it to Thach's invention of the Thach weave. The US found a way to level the playing field through its use and I want to find a way to level it too or better yet, tip it my way!

It's finally a beautiful spring day here and I have to go to work. Is there no justice in this world?

Chez

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Post #: 144

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/24/2011 3:01:00 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Bullwinkle, hopefully, this will upload ok.

This is a screenshot of my production screen showing oil and resources. The date is 23 Feb 1942.

Chez

Thanks.

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The Moose

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Post #: 145

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/24/2011 9:04:05 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
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Rob and Mike had one large air battle over Burma in our PBEM where something similar happened about 1 month ago.
(Large strike by Mike roughly handled by Robs fighter defense in an a bit weird fashion)

Since noone started a discussion about it and I did not take part in this I did not bother to look in deep what could have caused it.
Currently the possibilities considered come down to a combination of sweep, LRCAP, early detection and/or CAP range/altitude settings, but did not check on Robs settings over the Mandalay area
back then.

I filed that incident as "to check" in case I run into a similar situation on the US but since I am a bit slow to move and lack the logistic experience on the US side this is still
a bit in the future. I find such combats always easier to analyse when I at least plotted part of the action.

What I�m sure already works different - as to before the radar bug removal - is that CAP reacts to threats on any hex within the range set, with the usual other dice rolls involved,
in case a strike is detected early.
This leads to quite interesting results that can be influenced but only so much.
OTOH this was probably intended beforehand already, and is only news to me because it did not work until the lates official patch.

Nice weekend (at least after work, I hope)

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Post #: 146

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/24/2011 10:36:09 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

quote:

What I�m sure already works different - as to before the radar bug removal - is that CAP reacts to threats on any hex within the range set, with the usual other dice rolls involved, in case a strike is detected early.

With the radar fixed, I can well understand that CAP would react differently and be able to intercept raids within range of the radar.

But I'm not sure how that can be applied in my case as my ships did not have radar. If they did, that should have benefitted the Japanese, not the allies.

I'm not sure what the makeup of the base forces in Java are but I assume that they are mostly Dutch who do not have radar. It's possible that there are some Brit forces there that might have radar though I would consider it unlikely at this stage of the war. Also the range from the nearest Dutch base of Kalidjati to my TF was 4 hexes or 160 miles. The range from most other bases was at least 5 hexes or 200 miles. I believe that would be out of range of any land based allied radar this early in the war.

Chez

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Post #: 147

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/24/2011 10:43:23 AM

FatR

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Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
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I advise to bomb Singapore from 25k (above the ceiling of British AA guns) just enough to damage the airfield and keep forts from rebuilding.

Take note, that your delay is more serious that you think, if only because Dutch forces usually take a long time to clean up, and Java won't fold shortly after landing, as IRL.

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 148

RE: 21 Jan - 20 Feb 1942 - 4/24/2011 8:14:06 PM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

I advise to bomb Singapore from 25k (above the ceiling of British AA guns) just enough to damage the airfield and keep forts from rebuilding.

Take note, that your delay is more serious that you think, if only because Dutch forces usually take a long time to clean up, and Java won't fold shortly after landing, as IRL.

I've been bombing from 17K feet which has reduced my flak losses to manageable levels. At 20K+, I don't seem to hit anything.

Dan has removed most of his Dutch forces from Java and put them in Palembang so Java should be reasonably quick, at least the ports that I want, Batavia and Soerabaja. The plan is to control the industry and the oil in Java and let the Dutch wither on Java if cleanup becomes too time consuming.

Chez

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Post #: 149

RE: 21 Feb - 28 Feb 1942 - 4/27/2011 9:49:37 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

Time for another update.

21 Feb-
My Zeros swept Palembang shooting down several P-40s for one loss. Unfortunately, Dan moved approx 75 fighters into Singapore. My Oscars became separated from my bombers and continued onto Singapore. I lost one, Dan none. Then 32 Nells and 23 Bettys arrived over target unescorted. 28 were shot down.

My troops are bombarding Changsha but he is just too strong there to try to attack. I plan to withdraw the majority of them to the SW and see if there are easier pickings there. This will mean a river assault though so the odds must be favorable.

My troops continue to recover disruption at Clark. It's amazing how long he is able to hold out there. In pure AV, I hold a 2.5:1 advantage plus he is nearly out of supply and the forts are gone. Yet the best I can manage is a paltry 1:2 attack.

We continue to bombard Singapore. Why doesn't artillery target airfields and ports?

22 Feb-

A second day of sweeping Palembang results in an estimated 6 enemy fighters shot down for one loss.

Launched another deliberate attack against Clark. Same result. Inital IJ AV 2498, Allied 1013. Final AV IJ 869, Allied 2191. Odds 1:2. IJ casualties 2990, allied 2255.

23 Feb-

We recapture Cagayan. Dan had moved all his troops into the mountains.

No other news to report.

24 Feb-

The SS Sargo attempted to penetrate BB Ise's screen near Salajar but failed. No damaged sustained by either side.

We resume bombing Singapore after making up the bomber losses of 2 days ago. The pools are now empty and the pilots green.

Another deliberate attack against Clark... same result. This time I suffer 3442 casualties to 680. Disruption is high. Will rest one turn and see what it looks like.

I loaded an inf division at Canton a few days ago. They are heading for Mersing and should arrive in two days.

Also in the works is a landing at Denspassar south of Java. There is a level 3 airfield there that will be perfect for launching sweeps and bombing raids against his air forces that caused the loss of the Shoho. Ryujo and Zuiho will take station south of Denspassar and Hosho and Taiho will patrol near Makassar in case any allied naval vessels try to interfere.

Forces are also gathering near Noumea for a move on Noumea. KB will provide air cover as I don't know where his carriers are. The amphib TF will be heavily escorted with BBs as we are sailing into unknown waters. According to recon, Suva is lightly defended so should fall quickly... I hope. Landings are anticipated around the 1st of the month.

25 Feb-

Not much to report. Clean up operations continue in SE China as I play "whack-a-mole" with small Chinese units. Most of my forces have withdrawn from Changsha leaving just 2 divs and some support troops in the hex. Dan has noticed the withdrawal and now has started bombarding my troops there. For some reason the troops that withdrew headed east instead of SW. Now they will have to march through forest to get to their destination. That means that any hope of finding a soft spot east of Changsha before Dan could react is gone.

26 Feb-

Not a good day for the Japanese empire. The Japanese admiral had once again become complacent and failed to safeguard his convoys.

2 Allied CLs and 4 DDs arrived at night at Mersing and found 30+ lightly guarded AKs and APs. What followed was pure slaughter. At least 20 of the merchants were sunk as were all the escorts. Fortunately, my inf division from Canton had just unloaded and most of the fast APs escaped with relatively minor damage.

Worse was to come. The landings at Denspassar went off without a hitch. But Zuiho and Ryujo had no inkling that allied carriers were lurking about 12 hexes south of Denspassar. I estimate at least 4 US and 2 Brit carriers were present.

They launched a massive morning raid of 86 Dauntlesses with an escort of 17 fighters at the extreme range of 280 miles. 39 Zeros on escort tore into the raid shooting down 8 fighters and about 15 bombers for the loss of one Zero. Approximately 20 bombers were damaged.

But the allied raid was simply to big to stop. Zuiho took a 1000lb bomb and Ryujo 3 big bombs. Ryujo was left burning heavily and with heavy damage. BB Fuso took 12 bombs, several of them 1000lbers. BB Ise took 5 bombs. CA Myoko took 2 penetrating 1000lb bombs.

A second morning raid of 35 Dauntlesses escorted by 13 Wildcats encounter a reduced CAP of 15 Zeros. 2 Dauntlesses and 2 Wildcats were shot down for the loss of one Zero. Zuiho was targeted several times but escaped without further damage as did Ryujo. BB Fuso took 2 more bomb hits and BB ISe 3 bombs. DD Oyashio took a 500lb bomb and suffered a catastrophic magazine explosion and disappeared.

A third morning raid saw 7 Wildcats escorting 11 Swordfish. The Cap of 3 Zeros was ineffective. One Swordfish was shot down by BB Ise but the remainder put a bomb each on CVL Zuiho and BB Ise. BB Fuso took 2 more bombs for a total of 16 bombs. Fortunately, none have penetrated her armor.

A fourth morning attack against this TF appeared in the skies. 17 unescorted Dauntlesses encountered a CAP of 1 lone Zero which promptly ran out of ammo. No Dauntlesses were lost. Ryujo and Zuiho both took 500lb bombs each and BB Fuso 2 more. Ryujo finally sank.

Ryujo's CAP recovered aboard Zuiho which apparently was still capable of flight ops. The fleet admiral began to hope that Zuiho could get off an afternoon strike and hopefully damage or sink some allied ships with her 24 Kates. But it was not to be. Zuiho is overloaded and can only launch CAP.

The first allied raid of the afternoon was another large one. 62 Dauantlesses and 17 Albacores escorted by 29 fighters blew through the CAP of 10 Zeros. 2 allied fighters were shot with 3 Dauntlesses damaged. One Zero was lost. Zuiho took 2 bombs, BB Fuso took 6 more bombs and BB ISe 5. CA Myoko took 5 more bombs, all penetrating. She sank. CL Nagara also took a bomb. Zuiho sank and her airborne fighters along with Ryujo's survivors diverted to Makassar.

I launched a shock attack against Clark and achieve nearly 1:1 odds but losses and disruption is again heavy. The good news is that the allied troops causualties are mostly destroyed squads where mine are mostly dirsrupted one. He suffered significantly more destroyed troops than I.

27 Feb-

I have withdrew my forces from the Denspassar area. BB Fuso which took over 20 bobbs is capable of 15 knots and is moving at full speed to Kendari. Her system damage is 52 with eng damage of 29. Fires are out and she has only 12 flot damage. BB Ise has only 20 sys damage and no fires but has 12 eng and 12 flood.

Denspassar is captured. I left AMC Nosiro Maru there to unload some supplies but Dan sent 3 PT boats to harass her. She took a torpedo but appeared ok. Then 8 Blenheims found her and one planted a 250lb bomb on her deck. She is now onfire with heavy damage. Most of the supply she was to offload burned so I will have to arrange a fast transport force from Kendari to make up the difference.

So once again Dan has scored a great success. Losing the transports was bad enough but to lose both CVLs was a disaster as now all 3 CVLs are on the bottom and all I have left in the entire SRA is 2 CVEs. I may have to divide KB and send at least 2 carriers to the SRA. Not sure what I will do in that regard.

In the meantime, KB is now 3 hexes SW of Suva and my invasion forces will hit the beach next turn. Hopefully there will be no more surprises.

Chez

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