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RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 9:23:43 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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"You da man!"  I like how you take in all the advice, sift through it, accept some and reject others, but then trust to your instincts.  I know you've proven me wrong quite a few times, so I defer to your judgment.  Go get 'em!

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3481
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 9:41:03 AM   
beppi

 

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From: Austria
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The reatreat in India is very very strange. No gains for Reader from my POV. He just could have fought a classical delay fight, he has the troops to substanial delay any allied advance. How is the VP ratio right now ? Might it be possible, at least it was my first thought, that reader wants to avoid a auto victory in 1945 ? I have to admit that i did it sometimes too, to not exploit a strategic mistake of my opponent, just to extend the game and to enjoy it longer. It just seems so strange, he did not even test you combat strength.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3482
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 10:38:38 AM   
CaptBeefheart


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Beppi: Greyjoy mentioned once that they are both disregarding auto-vic. I think Rader is more interested in doing better than real life.

I too am puzzled by Rader's movements, but then again I was earlier as well when he crossed the LOD. The guy may be a genius for all we know. The Moose stumbled onto Rader's brilliant pilot-sacrifice HI-saving scheme.

Anyway, I can't say enough about this AAR. I am as impressed with Greyjoy's irrepressible good nature as I am with his frequent malapropisms, not to mention his ability to forge his own path while receiving a sea of advice.

Cheers,
CC

_____________________________

Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.

(in reply to beppi)
Post #: 3483
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 11:38:38 AM   
obvert


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Whether Rader is a genius or not remains to be seen. He does have very distinct ideas about the mechanisms of the game and how to use them, and he does want not only to do better than real life as the Japanese, but in my opinion he wants to WIN. I think this might be defined for him as still fighting hard by the end date in 46.

Look at his AAR Taming the Bear about his game with Jzanes. For views on bombing look at the several threads started recently by him on 4Es hitting troops. He is in mid-45 and frustrated by the way Jzanes is defeating his best laid plans with very historically possible (if politically questionable) 4E bombing. Not upset at Jzanes, just at the fact that he feels there is nothing he can do to combat the strength of the combined Russian and US advance using 4E as the main softening weapon. According to Jzanes he also is moving back forces from the DEI to rear positions to try and stall into 46.

In that game he is also by most standards doing incredibly well. He mentions at one point early on that he cares nothing about auto-victory, and that his invasion of Russia was simply for trying to survive longer in the late war.

In this game he will use all of what he is learning there about the situation in 45 to improve on his position (one of the reasons why I think it will be difficult for GJ to attack on the same axis into the DEI as was used by Jzanes). This is what is happening in India. He is choosing a position before GJ forces him into one. He will most likely stay out of the clear at all costs. He will also probably learn a lot about defending massed 4E attack on the HI in the next months there and begin to apply that to the game with GJ.

< Message edited by obvert -- 11/14/2011 11:56:14 AM >

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 3484
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 2:06:47 PM   
USSAmerica


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Hmmm..... with the evacuation of Japanese troops in India, the waters of the Bay of Bengal and off Malaya might be very good hunting grounds for Allied subs...

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

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(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 3485
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 3:09:49 PM   
Powloon

 

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Firstly I've just spent a week reading this AAR (not really helped my productivity at work!) and just wanted chime in to say congratulations on toughing this one out! It has been a great read and vastly helped me take my own newbish footprints into the grand campaign.

I was wondering if you are able to decouple you carriers from the Solomans? As I imagine if you can get them into the Indian Ocean at the moment you would play merry hell. I'm guessing from the time of the game and the trashing you have done of KBs air groups even if you did bump into KB which might be sheperding his convoys out of India you would stand a good chance of coming out victorious.

Obviously feel free to ignore as it looks like your not lacking advice from eminently more experienced players.

< Message edited by Powloon -- 11/14/2011 3:11:04 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3486
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 3:53:15 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beppi

The reatreat in India is very very strange. No gains for Reader from my POV. He just could have fought a classical delay fight, he has the troops to substanial delay any allied advance. How is the VP ratio right now ? Might it be possible, at least it was my first thought, that reader wants to avoid a auto victory in 1945 ? I have to admit that i did it sometimes too, to not exploit a strategic mistake of my opponent, just to extend the game and to enjoy it longer. It just seems so strange, he did not even test you combat strength.


I agree with Obvert here Beppi. Rader doesn't look at the game score. We're now something like 1,5 to 1 in favour of Japan... but we agreed never to look at the autovictory so...i don't think his moves are related with the auto victory thing.
It's very likely that the experiences he's having in his other game are driving him to the conclusion that in 1945 the allies can steamroll japan no matter how strong the position is...so he's probably retreating to a more convinient line in Burma where the terrain would offer him more protection against my 4Es... he's mistaken, imho, cause in this game i was never able to do what Jzanes has done to him with 4Es...also because Rader has already learnt from that game the real key-secret against 4Es: create a nest of mutual supporting AFs...the 4Es won't be able to suppress them all at the same time...and the mutual supporting CAP will simply make any 4Es adventure too expensive for the allies

(in reply to beppi)
Post #: 3487
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 3:55:31 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

Beppi: Greyjoy mentioned once that they are both disregarding auto-vic. I think Rader is more interested in doing better than real life.

I too am puzzled by Rader's movements, but then again I was earlier as well when he crossed the LOD. The guy may be a genius for all we know. The Moose stumbled onto Rader's brilliant pilot-sacrifice HI-saving scheme.

Anyway, I can't say enough about this AAR. I am as impressed with Greyjoy's irrepressible good nature as I am with his frequent malapropisms, not to mention his ability to forge his own path while receiving a sea of advice.

Cheers,
CC

Thanks Commander Cody...i'm trying to make my own path, yes, but my own path is also created by the priceless advices you're all giving me...my role here is something more like elaborating different advices, suggestions and analysis and come up with a unite syntethyzed (sp?!) strategy...which is a damned difficoult task!

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 3488
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 4:05:45 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Whether Rader is a genius or not remains to be seen. He does have very distinct ideas about the mechanisms of the game and how to use them, and he does want not only to do better than real life as the Japanese, but in my opinion he wants to WIN. I think this might be defined for him as still fighting hard by the end date in 46.

Look at his AAR Taming the Bear about his game with Jzanes. For views on bombing look at the several threads started recently by him on 4Es hitting troops. He is in mid-45 and frustrated by the way Jzanes is defeating his best laid plans with very historically possible (if politically questionable) 4E bombing. Not upset at Jzanes, just at the fact that he feels there is nothing he can do to combat the strength of the combined Russian and US advance using 4E as the main softening weapon. According to Jzanes he also is moving back forces from the DEI to rear positions to try and stall into 46.

In that game he is also by most standards doing incredibly well. He mentions at one point early on that he cares nothing about auto-victory, and that his invasion of Russia was simply for trying to survive longer in the late war.

In this game he will use all of what he is learning there about the situation in 45 to improve on his position (one of the reasons why I think it will be difficult for GJ to attack on the same axis into the DEI as was used by Jzanes). This is what is happening in India. He is choosing a position before GJ forces him into one. He will most likely stay out of the clear at all costs. He will also probably learn a lot about defending massed 4E attack on the HI in the next months there and begin to apply that to the game with GJ.



Unfortunately i agree with you at 100%...except for the fact that DEI isn't my best option... i know the opposition will be stiff, but the idea is to implement a double hook (differently than what Jzanes did)...advance through the solomons and through western NG...in order to force him to evacuate central NG...and use the NG as the axis of the advance of these two hooks...

In my plan (dream?) once i have "re-open" the Northern Oz front, everything will come up more easily...he will be forced to committ more forces here and so i'll have more chances in the Solomons...where i will have to advance to Buka...once Buka is taken, everything should become faster...

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 3489
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 4:06:18 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

Hmmm..... with the evacuation of Japanese troops in India, the waters of the Bay of Bengal and off Malaya might be very good hunting grounds for Allied subs...


That's my bet too! I already have 27 subs in place in the Bengal Bay...no contact yet

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 3490
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 4:09:39 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powloon

Firstly I've just spent a week reading this AAR (not really helped my productivity at work!) and just wanted chime in to say congratulations on toughing this one out! It has been a great read and vastly helped me take my own newbish footprints into the grand campaign.

I was wondering if you are able to decouple you carriers from the Solomans? As I imagine if you can get them into the Indian Ocean at the moment you would play merry hell. I'm guessing from the time of the game and the trashing you have done of KBs air groups even if you did bump into KB which might be sheperding his convoys out of India you would stand a good chance of coming out victorious.

Obviously feel free to ignore as it looks like your not lacking advice from eminently more experienced players.


Hi mate and very glad to have you here! Hope you will stay and join us through the rest of the war!

Yes, it's a good and juicy idea...however i need my CVs in Northern Oz 40 days from now when the operation for Darwin will start... and God knows how i need them...i really cannot strip them and send them to the Bengal Bay...also because i'm pretty sure Rader won't use his CVs in a supporting role...he has Cylon, Sebang and the Adamans (which are well built) that will guard his ships movements...he doesn't need his CVs... so i have to keep my CVs in order to protect my convoys that will move from Perth towards Darwin...too few AFs in that region to leave this task to the LBA...

(in reply to Powloon)
Post #: 3491
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 5:11:22 PM   
princep01

 

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Powloon, for someone with limited experience with the game, those are very cogent thoughts. Good suggestions there, Reek.

And, I would add, even if you are using the CVs for the N. Oz gambit (also a good thing), it is not a long way there and back again to the points where you can interdict some of those transports. Always nice to keep the sea creatures happy with a harvest of loaded LYB transports. However, if you choose that course, I would not split my CVs to do that op. As Powloon observes, Rader may use the KB to support any large troop migration by sea.

Go forth! Engage the enemy more closely.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3492
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 8:23:24 PM   
Cribtop


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Well, I prefer to eliminate all other possibilities before I assume the enemy is making a mistake, but I must agree that it appears Rader is abandoning India. He is letting the jzanes game influence him, as well as his fear that you will someday amphib behind him there. We all know that isn't your plan, but he doesn't, and he sees your competence at Amphib ops improving in the Solomons. Well done.

I think your plan to go hard up NG has merit as you can eventually take Palawan, Luzon or Formosa and thus cut the lifeline to the DEI. The main disadvantage is that by taking only one avenue of approach you will allow the enemy to concentrate his forces against that avenue.

_____________________________


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Post #: 3493
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 9:48:05 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SBD

Jan 28, 29, 30, 31 1944


quote:

Call me fool but i don't get Rader's strategy.... He moved everything back to Kohima (northern Burma!!!!).... my paras conquered Lahore and Dehli, while our troops are strat moving to occupy these key positions... not a single air mission conducted by the japs to interdict my movements...

Seems that Rader wants to leave the whole India in my hands and move the whole front back to Burma...

Well...we keep on advancing.... now, while some tanks units will secure Ralpawindi and northern India, the bulk of my army is moving to Dehli, where we're gonna organize again and get ready for the next jump...


I think Rader may be responding to the clock. He sees that the game's into '44 already & in 11 short months it will be '45. He has experience in his other game playing against the late war allies & knows what they can do. So he feels uncomfortable leaving a large # of troops in a forward position that could get flanked. Therefore he's consolidating his position.

Just my guess at what he's thinking. Of course there's also a chance that there could be some sort of ruse involved.




And it could be that he has calculated his industry needs up to the end of the war and just decided that he no longer needs the Indian industrial output to accomplish his aims. Still, I just don't know why he left. I might have pulled some troops out but still would not have moved out of the front line until Greyjoy forced me out. In light of his victory in China, the Japanese can lose 400,000 men in India if it buys them another half a year. There is no shortage of Japanese infantry in scen 2.


_____________________________

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(in reply to SBD)
Post #: 3494
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 10:10:18 PM   
Mistmatz

 

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I don't understand all the speculation about the retreat from India.

Rader got out of this adventure what he wanted. A lot of HI to feed his economy until the end of the war (or clock) and keeping half of the map almost completely quiet with LCUs so he could use the majority of naval assets and air groups in theaters that did matter to delay the allied advance.

He has achieved that and now he's moving out in a controlled manner, at his terms, to use his ground assets in a more important role - the defence of the inner perimeter. Or at least the outer layers...

So nothing surprising here.

_____________________________

If you gained knowledge through the forum, why not putting it into the AE wiki?

http://witp-ae.wikia.com/wiki/War_in_the_Pacific:_Admiral%27s_Edition_Wiki


(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 3495
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 10:33:09 PM   
Xxzard

 

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However, Rader's retreat gives GJ room to maneuver in India, which was previously denied. The roads to and from Karachi are not the best, distances between bases large. If Rader kept GJ bottled up, which it seemed like he could, he had GJ contained to two bases, and any attack from GJ would have inconsistent air support from distant bases. A direct attack against 400k Japanese troops never seemed advisable, but if they are spread out and there is the possibility of flanking them or forcing retreat by maneuver, GJ is in much better shape. He already had the frontline bases very well established, and manned. He even had the outer islands secured, giving him a good chance to interdict any sneaky invasions behind his lines.

Do we have any evidence of a real retreat, not a re-positioning? That is what worries me. Perhaps my personality as a (digital) commander is closer to McClellan than Lee, but I'm concerned that Rader may be setting a trap and waiting for GJ to overexpose his forces.

In any case, keep you eyes open and recon planes flying GreyJoy!

_____________________________


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Post #: 3496
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 11:58:45 PM   
Alfred

 

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If Rader has set a trap for a tactical riposte, he has chosen very poor terrain for it. Last screenshot on previous page shows Japan has abandoned every base north of Cawnpore and Delhi was already in Allied hands.

To set up a trap Rader would have done best to:

(a) hold the Allied advance at the tri base area (Lahore, Amritsar, Sialkot)
(b) work around the Allied flanks, using excess troops from the tri base area plus Rawalpindi, to move on Multan which would have had much lower fortification levels than the tri base area bases (which allowed for plentiful of excess Japanese forces)
(c) advance his Jodhpur troops to Hyderabad (Sindh)
(d) advance along the coast from Ahmedabad to Karachi

This would still allowed him the additional option of a direct landing at Karachi.

Alfred

(in reply to Xxzard)
Post #: 3497
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/14/2011 11:59:10 PM   
GreyJoy


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Feb 1, 2, 3, 4 1944

Rader has moved everything to Burma border...at least that's what it seems wacthing the intel reports... he left little battaillons on my way in order to interdict the strat movement... he is already too far away so i cannot really catch him. After the capture of Dehli we're now dealing with these "stopping battaillons", annihilating them with my 4Es...while my armoured forces are moving to secure the bases around Dehli...no sign of japanese intervention...and recon says everything up to Cawpore is empty...

I don't think this is a trap...i'm keeping Karachi well garrisoned anyway, with a corp of 2000 AVs in strat mode at Multan...just to be sure...

We're also dealing with the bases up to ralpawindi...in one week the base and its industrial center will be in our hands again.

In the Solomons tomorrow we will deal with Vella La Vella, with a huge air bombing...after that, in 2 days, our II US Corp will unload at Panggoe and will immediately start to march towards Chiuseul...i do expect a strong and stiff air resistance to my landings...getting ready for it!

A DD division of ours swept Shortland for the first time in 3 months...found several MBTs and sunk 7 of them...however those guys are stiff and bastards just like my PTs......soon, very soon...We'll start to bomb Shortland...can't wait to reduce Bouganville!

Tomorrow 3 Yorktown Classes CVs will have completed their 1/44 updates at Sydeny and will join the fleet at Ndeni again in order to support the next operations... now my CVs are all up to date with their upgrades, except for 3 of them...that are stopped to their 4/43 upgrades...but, for the moment, it's enough!


(in reply to Xxzard)
Post #: 3498
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/15/2011 12:01:31 AM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

If Rader has set a trap for a tactical riposte, he has chosen very poor terrain for it. Last screenshot on previous page shows Japan has abandoned every base north of Cawnpore and Delhi was already in Allied hands.

To set up a trap Rader would have done best to:

(a) hold the Allied advance at the tri base area (Lahore, Amritsar, Sialkot)
(b) work around the Allied flanks, using excess troops from the tri base area plus Rawalpindi, to move on Multan which would have had much lower fortification levels than the tri base area bases (which allowed for plentiful of excess Japanese forces)
(c) advance his Jodhpur troops to Hyderabad (Sindh)
(d) advance along the coast from Ahmedabad to Karachi

This would still allowed him the additional option of a direct landing at Karachi.

Alfred


59 units were reported at Kohima last turn, and this turn we recieved heavy volume traffic in the road that from Ledo leads to Burma...he's really evacuating everything back to Burma...apparently not by sea but by land...

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 3499
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/15/2011 12:42:39 AM   
Mistmatz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
...
I don't think this is a trap...i'm keeping Karachi well garrisoned anyway, with a corp of 2000 AVs in strat mode at Multan...just to be sure...
...


If this corps is meant to counter a possible invasion of Karachi by sea you may want to move it to Hyderabad (the one next to Karachi) as you cannot STRAT move them into a contested hex (at least that's how I remember it).
This means you would have to move overland for a few hexes, so I would at least get rid of those strat move days and maybe even the days for changing mode from strat to regular move.

But as posted earlier I highly doubt he'll be around for small tactical battles. He is following his strategic goals.

_____________________________

If you gained knowledge through the forum, why not putting it into the AE wiki?

http://witp-ae.wikia.com/wiki/War_in_the_Pacific:_Admiral%27s_Edition_Wiki


(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3500
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/15/2011 8:06:31 AM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
...
I don't think this is a trap...i'm keeping Karachi well garrisoned anyway, with a corp of 2000 AVs in strat mode at Multan...just to be sure...
...


If this corps is meant to counter a possible invasion of Karachi by sea you may want to move it to Hyderabad (the one next to Karachi) as you cannot STRAT move them into a contested hex (at least that's how I remember it).
This means you would have to move overland for a few hexes, so I would at least get rid of those strat move days and maybe even the days for changing mode from strat to regular move.

But as posted earlier I highly doubt he'll be around for small tactical battles. He is following his strategic goals.


as far as i know, you cannot exit from a contested hex in strat mode, but you can always strat move to a contested hex... can someone confirm?

Anyway, the war goes on.

Feb 5, 6, 7, 8 1944

These days saw a couple of bad days for the allies in the air in the Solomons.
Rader gave me a bloody nose over Vella La Vella...His leaky CAP from Shortland (2 hexes away) tangled with our sweepers from Rekata and they really fought better than expected, overwhelming in numbers... In two days of combat we lost nearly 90 planes, among them 50 between P-47s and P-38s....but, above all, we lost 47 pilots...and 18 of them were aces...some of them with 22/27 kills...
These battles show how good Rader's air force is still...no matter the losses of the last months...

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Feb 05, 44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Vella Lavella , at 110,133

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 30 NM, estimated altitude 36,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 17
A6M5 Zero x 22
N1K1 Rex x 11
N1K1-J George x 7
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 79



Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk III x 10
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 22


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
N1K1 Rex: 1 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk III: 4 destroyed
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 5 destroyed



CAP engaged:
251 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
801 Ku S-1 with N1K1 Rex (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
452 Ku S-1 with N1K1 Rex (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead
253 Ku S-2 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
301 Ku S-2 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
381 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
9th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(17 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
11th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(17 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 14 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
24th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(15 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
50th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 7 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
203rd Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
284 Ku S-1 with A6M3 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(17 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
265th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Vella Lavella , at 110,133

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 11 NM, estimated altitude 35,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 5
A6M5 Zero x 18
N1K1 Rex x 10
N1K1-J George x 5
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 68



Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 25


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
N1K1 Rex: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 12 destroyed



CAP engaged:
801 Ku S-1 with N1K1 Rex (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
452 Ku S-1 with N1K1 Rex (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
253 Ku S-2 with N1K1-J George (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Raid is overhead
301 Ku S-2 with A6M5 Zero (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
381 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
9th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (14 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(15 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
14 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
11th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
50th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
203rd Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
284 Ku S-1 with A6M3 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
265th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
251 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Raid is overhead
24th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(12 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Raid is overhead

... as you can see, no matter the altitude advantage...no matter my pilots are CRACK...(most of them being eligible for TRACOM... )...numbers DO make the difference...

The only good thing is that my 4Es, that arrived after the fighters, suffered only moderate damage... lost nearly 20 of them today btw...

Ok, now it's time to push forward. Tomorrow a 100 ship convoy will arrive at Panggoe, escorted by a TF composed of 2 modern BBs, 2 CAs and 8 DDs and another one composed of 4 Cleveland CLs and 8 Fletchers... A CAP of more than 600 fighters is odered over Panggoe...8 hexes from the actual KB position and 9 hexes from Rabaul... We need to deliver the II US Corp (2 divisions, 2 Eng BNs, 3 Tank units, 3 Arty units and 1 AA unit) and then march all the way to Chiuseul..
My CVs will stay in cover, operating from 1 hex east of Auki...

In India things are going well...we're expanding our perimeter around Dehli with our armoured corps, while our main army is strat moving (now that the railroad is free again) from Multan and Lahore to Dehli.
It's also confirmed that he moved almost everything back to Burma...

In the Bengal Bay was a good day...we sunk two PBs with our subs...however there's almost nothing sailing through this bay...no ships...nothing...not even a reported ship in port from CoastWatchers...zero, nada... strange...very strange... does he really want to move his whole 500k army on foot through the Ledo trail!?!?!?




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Mistmatz)
Post #: 3501
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/15/2011 8:07:16 AM   
GreyJoy


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Joined: 3/18/2011
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hh




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(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3502
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/15/2011 9:08:53 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
india situation




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(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3503
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/15/2011 9:10:05 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
It seems if you're going to sweep you might have to prepare a massively overwhelming attack. On the offensive it's so easy to be surprised and have results that negate several weeks of positive gains, especially with losing the pilots. Sorry about that one. The other thing is that this makes some good pilots for him. Assuming many of the ones who got the kills survived that is.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3504
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/15/2011 9:24:47 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

It seems if you're going to sweep you might have to prepare a massively overwhelming attack. On the offensive it's so easy to be surprised and have results that negate several weeks of positive gains, especially with losing the pilots. Sorry about that one. The other thing is that this makes some good pilots for him. Assuming many of the ones who got the kills survived that is.


I didn't post the whole combat report. I had 75 P-47s, 75 P-38Hs and 56 Hellcats from Rekata. Air HQ was present.... despite that every single group went in separetly...many groups even got separated on their own with several planes flying before the bombers and some more after the bombers...a mess. I never am able to make my sweeps coordinated and that's a pain...while generally his sweeps have always been well coordinated.

Sweep isn't my cup of tea, defenetly...

Yup, from now on i'll surely be more cautious...i hate losing my aces...

I even had placed 2 subs in the hex...for pilots recovery pourposes...didn't work well...

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 3505
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/15/2011 10:39:02 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

I didn't post the whole combat report. I had 75 P-47s, 75 P-38Hs and 56 Hellcats from Rekata. Air HQ was present.... despite that every single group went in separetly...many groups even got separated on their own with several planes flying before the bombers and some more after the bombers...a mess. I never am able to make my sweeps coordinated and that's a pain...while generally his sweeps have always been well coordinated.


Yeah, you'd think that would be enough. Hmm.

quote:

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms
Weather in hex: Severe storms


Maybe this had something to do with the separations. Does Rader have a better Ij weatherman, too? Can you build one of those with extra HI?

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3506
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/15/2011 11:31:04 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

I didn't post the whole combat report. I had 75 P-47s, 75 P-38Hs and 56 Hellcats from Rekata. Air HQ was present.... despite that every single group went in separetly...many groups even got separated on their own with several planes flying before the bombers and some more after the bombers...a mess. I never am able to make my sweeps coordinated and that's a pain...while generally his sweeps have always been well coordinated.


Yeah, you'd think that would be enough. Hmm.

quote:

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms
Weather in hex: Severe storms


Maybe this had something to do with the separations. Does Rader have a better Ij weatherman, too? Can you build one of those with extra HI?


Fact is that, even when i make sweeps from PM, where every single squadron is attached to the air HQ that is present there and that is attached to the same command as the PM base, my sweeps always come in separated...the best result i've obtained so far is to have single squadrons that go in united (so to say 25 P-47s of squadron X, followed by 25 P-47s of squadron Y etc etc)...but never got the result he obtained over Karachi for example, when 200 Tojos used to sweep every day in a single formation...

Anyway, it's clear that, facing these numbers and these losses, i cannot use the normal strategy. My air strategy must always be to send in the fleet and cover it with CAP...so that i will always be on the defensive side of the hill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 3507
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/15/2011 12:00:01 PM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 694
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
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There are a number of factors that result in lack of coordination of sweeps in what I believe are the order of impact of those factors:

1) Plane types (specifically differences in cruising speed) – same plane type coordinates better; the closer the aircraft types are in cruising speed the greater the chance of coordinated strikes;
2) Altitude – if you send planes in at different altitudes they will tend to go in uncoordinated, all at the same height and you have more odds of a coordinated large strike;
3) Weather – the worse the weather (i.e. rain, thunderstorms) the greater the chances for the strikes to be uncoordinated;
4) Range to target – the further away from the target hex the various squadrons are, the greater the odds of it being uncoordinated;
5) Origin – if all the planes are launching from the same base, greater chance of coordination;
6) Air HQ being present at the origin base;
7) Other factors like squadron leader statistics, squadron morale.

It appears you ordered Kittyhawks from Munda, and P-47s, P-38s and F6Fs from Rekata Bay.

It looks like you had three squadrons P-47s, three squadrons P-38s and two squadrons F6Fs (at least) at Rekata Bay – what airfield level is it? Do you have any other squadrons there (e.g. dive-bombers, patrol planes)? It could well be that your airfield was overstacked – resulting in sweeps also not going in coordinated.

The F6F’s cruising speed is quite a bit slower than the P-47D and the P-38Hs (200mph as opposed to around 250mph). This could have been a factor too.

I think in this case the following happened that counted against you:

1) Different plane types
2) Poor weather
3) Very poor die roll

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3508
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/15/2011 2:18:29 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

There are a number of factors that result in lack of coordination of sweeps in what I believe are the order of impact of those factors:

1) Plane types (specifically differences in cruising speed) – same plane type coordinates better; the closer the aircraft types are in cruising speed the greater the chance of coordinated strikes;
2) Altitude – if you send planes in at different altitudes they will tend to go in uncoordinated, all at the same height and you have more odds of a coordinated large strike;
3) Weather – the worse the weather (i.e. rain, thunderstorms) the greater the chances for the strikes to be uncoordinated;
4) Range to target – the further away from the target hex the various squadrons are, the greater the odds of it being uncoordinated;
5) Origin – if all the planes are launching from the same base, greater chance of coordination;
6) Air HQ being present at the origin base;
7) Other factors like squadron leader statistics, squadron morale.

It appears you ordered Kittyhawks from Munda, and P-47s, P-38s and F6Fs from Rekata Bay.

It looks like you had three squadrons P-47s, three squadrons P-38s and two squadrons F6Fs (at least) at Rekata Bay – what airfield level is it? Do you have any other squadrons there (e.g. dive-bombers, patrol planes)? It could well be that your airfield was overstacked – resulting in sweeps also not going in coordinated.

The F6F’s cruising speed is quite a bit slower than the P-47D and the P-38Hs (200mph as opposed to around 250mph). This could have been a factor too.

I think in this case the following happened that counted against you:

1) Different plane types
2) Poor weather
3) Very poor die roll


Thanks CT Grognard! I've studied the "Coordination Guide" posted on the war room section...
I gotta say that i've always tried to keep those rules in mind when i try to sweep...in fact usually i never use Hellcats for this role (this was supposed to be a safe mission)...the Kittihawks were on LRCAP, while all the P-38s were set at 31k and the P-47s at 36k... Rekata wasn't overstacked, having space for 300 aircraft and 15 groups... and normally i never overstack my AFs, trying to always keep an eye on the AF limitations..

Anyway, not a big deal...lesson learnt and we'll move forward... i have to force him to come to me...that's the strategy

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 3509
RE: India evacuated!! - 11/15/2011 3:21:02 PM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 694
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline
It's a painful lesson to learn!

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3510
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