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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 10:54:28 AM

GreyJoy

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Nemo, i'm still waiting for the final transfer of my 4Es groups. I'm allocating those 4Es needed to hit the strat targets where i can do it safely. And also i'm still learning how to handle these masses of planes properly...step by step...today missions were a general training exam...the mix of sweep+LRCAP+Escort seems to work and we managed to have several "air supremacy" missions with more than 100 fighters over the target...which is a great improovement for me.
We also destroyed another aircraft factory...60 zeros monthly that won't come bothering me in the future. if you sum these with the 46 Tojos production we destroyed at Harbin it's already a gran total of 100 planes monthly that rader isn't able to produce no more. i know it's not much but it's a beginning.

Also i need to rest my troops now...so organizing the defence of Okkaido doesn't sound, in the meanwhile, a waste of energies imho...

And invading Honshu it's a possibility i'm taking into consideration...

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 11:14:19 AM

Nemo121

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I don't see why your training needed to involve wasting 4-engined planes ( which take ops losses and flak losses even on these training missions ) on ground bombing after everything everyone has said. It just seems like an easy way to lose planes doing something pointless you don't have to do.

Each to their own though.

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 11:47:19 AM

Powloon

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Just got to say again your doing a great job! In under 2 months you have conquered 14 bases in the home islands (I'm guessing that in itself is a fairly unique achievement in AE) grabbed the strategic initiative with both hands and made Rader dance to your tune. I'm guessing that no matter how far you've come this situation is obviously unlike any other you've faced in the game so far.

Have you decided how you want to finish this?

The way I see it you have 2 options you either finish him with strategic bombing and an air/sea blockade or you get boots on the ground in Honshu and physically take away his means of production.

For option 1 you are still going to need some of the islands to the south of Japan possibly including Okinawa to enable you to interdict the resources (not to mention men and equipment) coming from the DEI as well as possibly some of the islands in the Sea of Japan for fighter bases to enable the bombing of Southern Japan. This is going to mean exposing your shipping to intensive air attack and possibly KB.

For option 2 you can use your unsinkable aircraft carrier you have obtained in the form of Hokkaido to support an invasion of Honshu without the associated risks to your shipping. For this to work though I think you need to proceed as soon as possible and hit him again with everything you have while he is off balance. He is only going to get stronger here. I would ignore the rest of the Kuriles I can't see how they will gain you anything at this stage. You can keep them suppressed with the 2Es and ships you already have in place.

The only diversion of effort it might be worth entertaining is grabbing wake and marcus islands as they would greatly increase your air search capabilities and give you some early warning of KB raids.

Anyway great read!

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Post #: 4233

RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 1:36:29 PM

ny59giants

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GJ - Here are the late war fighters you will soon, if you haven't already, be facing in great numbers. Like Nemo stated, your 4e bombers should be assigned strategic bombings missions except in emergency. I recently increased my R&D on some of these air frames (I'm in Feb 43), so I would imagine that some will be coming available sooner than what this screenshot shows for Rader.

Engines - may be targeted if your current 4e bombers cannot reach far enough into Japan.
Ha-45 will be mainly for the George and Frank
Ha-43 will be for Shinden, Ki-83, later George, and later Zero

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 12/8/2011 1:43:37 PM >

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 1:43:44 PM

Nemo121

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Once Rader begins getting 30mm-armed fighters onto the front line his ability to shoot 4-engineds down will improve massively.

In my Armaggedon game recently -the one that's currently on hiatus - I got my first couple of squadrons of 30mm-armed fighters into action over a single base. B-29s attacked that base. Normally they'd have lost 40 or so bombers if facing 20mm-armed fighters. On that day they lost just over 100 B-29s. The 30mm cannons make a HUGE difference.

But all of that is secondary to the point that it isn't good strategy to waste 4-engineds doing jobs that single and twin-engined bombers could adequately do.

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 1:50:47 PM

paullus99

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It will be a process of sending in & building up his supply of 2E & FBs, and once he has those in place, the 4Es should be doing nothing but strategic bombing. There are few distinct operations which can be conducted simultaneously at this point:

1) Use 4Es to bomb the crap out of vital aircraft industries - this has a two-fold effect, destroying the planes before they even get out of the factories (either by having no engines or airframes) & forcing Rader to defend his factories at all cost - which ties down his fighters and forcing him to fight a battle of attrition which he can't win.

2) Conduct additional land campaigns (perhaps Korea or even a lunge at Honshu with the intent to tie down his troops)

3) At leisure, use your carriers offensively to finally corner and destroy the KB - the more you can go on the offensive, the less time Rader will have to plan on attack on you.

I fully agree that it is a question of maintaining the momentum - there is no reason in the world you can't be running multiple operations, including both offensive and defensive, at this point.

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 2:23:52 PM

GreyJoy

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Nemo, sorry but i don't understand your concerns now.
I'm relocating all the 4Es i have around the map and this process, as you know, takes time (9/10 days at least considering those planes left behind cause damaged during the transfers).
In the meantime i destroyed completely the a/c production at Harbin (maily Tojos IIc), Sentai (Shindens R&R) and Hachinoe (zero) for little cost.
During the last mission at Hachinoe we had to destroy a 61/monthly zero production and we used all the B-24Js we had for this tasks. The other british 4Es (recently arrived passing through Chungking - where we lost 30 bombers due to damage and consequent impossibility to repair due to the lack of supply)were devoted to support the ground attacks of the 2Es.
Considering the numbers involved i knew the task of closing the industry of those zeros would have been achieved with the B-24s allocated. I could stand down the british liberators, true, but the mission was a safe one (no opposition previewed and very short range) and i figured i could kill some more troops with no loss and give Rader some more concerns about defending a clear terrain base hex.

Sincerly i think i'm sticking (sp?!) to the task and to the target you and others have underlined.

Now i'm massing my long legged fighters and waiting for the last 200 bombers to arrive (in 2 days they will be in Okkaido). In a week we'll have 650 4Es fully rested with best leaders and with decent crews ready to come into action, with 130 P-38s and 300 P-47s ready to support the next strat bombing operation.

The problem, as you see in the attached map, is that a/c industries are now all behind the red line. Behind that line Rader has several 9 lvl AFs, full of fighters and AA. And when i say "full" i mean FULL. Tokyo has 833 fighters spotted and the bases around it have at least 200 fighters each.
And the situation isn't growing if we move westwards. I recently reconned Hiroshima and Nakasaki and they both have more than 400 fighters each. So it's not doable a mission beyond the fighter cover range.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by GreyJoy -- 12/8/2011 2:24:08 PM >

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 2:26:18 PM

jeffk3510

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I think all Nemo is saying, if he allocated his 4Es better, he would end the war in a couple of months...which I agree..

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 2:30:57 PM

Canoerebel

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Let GJ play the game.

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 2:38:47 PM

Grfin Zeppelin

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Sadly the important AC factories are behind this line. Your time window is closing already and thats the reason Nemo is so concerned methinks. You had a huge gap and should have thrown the 4E kitchen sink. The number of troops killed with that attack is truly impressive but irrelevant. At the time your ground forces meet them they will be replaced.
Anyway, its a very interesting game from both of you and your main focus should be to have fun :)

< Message edited by Gr�fin Zeppelin -- 12/8/2011 2:42:41 PM >

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 2:44:49 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Bullwinkle,
YOu are conflating two separate things. I am simply saying that the new system is an improvement and NOT as bad as people are making out. I'm not saying it is perfect and neither am I saying what preceded it didn't require changing.

To take a statement that the current system isn't as bad as some are making out and to make out that that's saying either of those other two things is to ignore the meaning of English. Hopefully you'll agree you just misread, in haste, what I wrote.

What I read was you commenting that your experiece, playing the Japanese side, in reconning Okinawa could be expanded to make a greater point that the beta change is a yawn. Sorry, I read English real good.

My greater point, which I will, after this post, cease discussing here, is that this beta change is a structural game mechanism change which affects game balance. As such it should not be made after the request of one or two partiisans without a thorough discussion by the general community.

Lawyers, engineers, and yes, even doctors, understand that it is the general case which must be examined, and not the exception. In GJ's current set-up, or yours with Okinawa, recon is a relatively low-asset-consumption endeavor. In the historic case, with strat bombing undertaken from the Marianas with very few assets possessing the requisite range, it is a far larger Allied trade-off decision vis a vis fatigue, ops loss, and time. Yes, it is historic truth that it was undertaken, but the game is a bundle of trade-offs to history in order to meet game balance needs. (Amphib bonus anyone?)

Unilaterally changing a balance element without a quid pro quo (that's Latin BTW) should not be a decision made by a few, or one. That this change is big or small is not the point.

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 3:22:43 PM

Nemo121

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Bullwinkle,

I re-iterate.... I didn't say, to use your phrase, that the beta change is a "yawn". I won't be put in the position of defending words I never said, put in my mouth by someone else. You can either have the good grace to simply accept that I didn't in any way mean that the beta change was inconsequential OR, if you prefer, you can continue stating I said something I didn't and then you and I can go on to have a problem. It really is your choice at this point. I suggest you discuss your decision with Alfred who, I am certain, can parse the difference between "I don't see what the fuss is about...." followed by an explanation of how the new model has graded levels of knowledge and how this more closely approximates reality then the previous model AND what you seem to have read which is some sort of "there was no need for any change" - which doesn't even slightly resemble what I said.

Personally I think you have misinterpreted what I said. I don't think you did so maliciously but I'm also quite sick and tired of the forum prediliection of putting words in other's mouths and then demanding they defend something they never said.

As to such changes being implemented. Michaelm is very reasonable. If you partake in the Beta thread in the Tech Forum you can present your position ( a position I actually agree with ) and if you argue your case well AND fairly ( no putting words in people's mouths ) you can get changes reversed and other changes in if that's warranted. I've had quite a few bugs fixed this way. If you feel this change so keenly and wish to go back to the old model etc then go to the tech forum and argue your case. Michaelm will disregard arguments which feature trickery such as misquoting or misrepresenting though so bear that in mind.

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 3:23:02 PM

GreyJoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

Sadly the important AC factories are behind this line. Your time window is closing already and thats the reason Nemo is so concerned methinks. You had a huge gap and should have thrown the 4E kitchen sink. The number of troops killed with that attack is truly impressive but irrelevant. At the time your ground forces meet them they will be replaced.
Anyway, its a very interesting game from both of you and your main focus should be to have fun :)

If it is so, well be it. i'm really doing my best and i accept the fact that i have done, i'm doing and i will do many and many more mistakes, both strategically, tactically and for what concerns timings.
I perfectly understand the importance of a/c factories but i cannot simply send 200 4Es against heavily defended bases, even if my time is running up. It would only be, under my POV, a waste of good crews (cause i have already experienced at Jodpur, during the battle for India, what a concentred AA and a decent CAP can do against unescorted heavy bombers). I gotta wait till i'm ready and it takes time to move hundreds of bombers from india or SOPAC to Hokkaido. And it takes time to create a good long-legged fighters group and at the same time mantain a strong quality CAP over my bases and my ships.

However, i'm thankfull for all your inputs guys. Just know that i'm listening and doing my very best in order to get the job done properly

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 3:36:26 PM

paullus99

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If the Red Line is a problem, seems like the best solution would be to move to immediately (or in the very short term) capture bases that put you in a much closer position to those Southern Industrial targets.

Of course, I know it isn't easy at this point - and there is still a lot of time left on the clock - so just endeavor to perservere, you'll end up doing just fine.

One thing to keep in mind - there is nothing that you cannot accomplish with force of will and focus.

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 3:47:49 PM

Cap Mandrake

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Anyone see that lousy pass Drew Breese threw on Sunday on his way to 8 touchdowns in the air?

Just invade Korea.

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 4:01:48 PM

crsutton

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Yep, GJ is like King Midas. From now on anything he touches will turn to gold. Two months, four months, six months....it does not matter. Rader is done for and how GJ does it is not material. He is gonna have a lot of fun no mattter. I have pretty much stepped away from giving him advice. We all should be on Rader's AAR now-giving him our advice.

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 4:04:53 PM

GreyJoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powloon

Just got to say again your doing a great job! In under 2 months you have conquered 14 bases in the home islands (I'm guessing that in itself is a fairly unique achievement in AE) grabbed the strategic initiative with both hands and made Rader dance to your tune. I'm guessing that no matter how far you've come this situation is obviously unlike any other you've faced in the game so far.

Have you decided how you want to finish this?

The way I see it you have 2 options you either finish him with strategic bombing and an air/sea blockade or you get boots on the ground in Honshu and physically take away his means of production.

For option 1 you are still going to need some of the islands to the south of Japan possibly including Okinawa to enable you to interdict the resources (not to mention men and equipment) coming from the DEI as well as possibly some of the islands in the Sea of Japan for fighter bases to enable the bombing of Southern Japan. This is going to mean exposing your shipping to intensive air attack and possibly KB.

For option 2 you can use your unsinkable aircraft carrier you have obtained in the form of Hokkaido to support an invasion of Honshu without the associated risks to your shipping. For this to work though I think you need to proceed as soon as possible and hit him again with everything you have while he is off balance. He is only going to get stronger here. I would ignore the rest of the Kuriles I can't see how they will gain you anything at this stage. You can keep them suppressed with the 2Es and ships you already have in place.

The only diversion of effort it might be worth entertaining is grabbing wake and marcus islands as they would greatly increase your air search capabilities and give you some early warning of KB raids.

Anyway great read!

quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

It will be a process of sending in & building up his supply of 2E & FBs, and once he has those in place, the 4Es should be doing nothing but strategic bombing. There are few distinct operations which can be conducted simultaneously at this point:

1) Use 4Es to bomb the crap out of vital aircraft industries - this has a two-fold effect, destroying the planes before they even get out of the factories (either by having no engines or airframes) & forcing Rader to defend his factories at all cost - which ties down his fighters and forcing him to fight a battle of attrition which he can't win.

2) Conduct additional land campaigns (perhaps Korea or even a lunge at Honshu with the intent to tie down his troops)

3) At leisure, use your carriers offensively to finally corner and destroy the KB - the more you can go on the offensive, the less time Rader will have to plan on attack on you.

I fully agree that it is a question of maintaining the momentum - there is no reason in the world you can't be running multiple operations, including both offensive and defensive, at this point.

I'm still very concerned about the next strategy.
For sure one of the goals is to strat bombing his a/c factories.
But then i need (also because this is a game and not reality so i don't wanna just sit down and bomb for the next 12 months) to find a land target that suits my strategy.
I'm thinking about Korea or northern Honshu.
Korea will be for sure less defended than Japan but to get there i'll need to expose my fleet to his LBA+KB+Surface Combined fleet.
Honshu will surely be heavily defended, with the best divisions Japan has plus all the reinforcements coming in, but i can land under the umbrella of my Hokkaido LBA.
It's still to be decided yet...it will surely depends also on how well go the first strat bombings behind the "red line". If they will go well i could switch to Korea but if it prooves impossible to break the CAP+AA Rader's shield, then i'll have to take those factories with my LCUs...and will be damned bloody!...but Fun

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 4:06:34 PM

GreyJoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Yep, GJ is like King Midas. From now on anything he touches will turn to gold. Two months, four months, six months....it does not matter. Rader is done for and how GJ does it is not material. He is gonna have a lot of fun no mattter. I have pretty much stepped away from giving him advice. We all should be on Rader's AAR now-giving him our advice.

Well, i don't wanna lose you

...so you're welcome to give Rader's advices and suggestions, but don't abbandon me

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Post #: 4248

RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 4:07:31 PM

GreyJoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Just invade Korea.

It's a possibility taken into consideration by GJ HQ

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 4:19:27 PM

pat.casey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Yep, GJ is like King Midas. From now on anything he touches will turn to gold. Two months, four months, six months....it does not matter. Rader is done for and how GJ does it is not material. He is gonna have a lot of fun no mattter. I have pretty much stepped away from giving him advice. We all should be on Rader's AAR now-giving him our advice.

I'm not sure I totally agree. GJ is in a great position and has a number of interesting choices in front of him. Its a situation almost any Allied player would love to be in because of the sheer number of plausible options he has on the table. His plate is full.

On the flip side though, the Japanese Army, Navy, and Airforce remain undefeated. Radar caught them out of position and grabbed a *great* piece of real estate, but they're still out there and ultimately have to be defeated to win the game.

As others have suggested, the optimal path to wrecking the Japanese armed forces at this point is to go after aircraft production. It does not put any allied strategic assets at risk, and it leverages GJ's position on Hokaido. GJ will lose bombers doing it, to be sure, and he may even wreck his 4E force in the process and take them out of the game for months, but frankly, who cares if he takes out the Japanese aircraft industry in the process?

Fundamentally the way you win the game is you wreck Japan's armed forces, and the way you wreck her armed forces it to wreck her economy. All the other operations you launch as the allies, the invasions, the fleet actions, the base building, etc, are all just preamble put yourself in a position to wreck her economy.

Now clearly there's more than one way to wreck the Japanese economy, at a high level you can wreck it indirectly by starving it of resources, or you can directly destroy the production facilities. In GJ's case he's positioned for a direct bombing campaign, that's his play.

Changing his mind at this point and using Hokaido as, say, a springboard for invasions of Okinawa to cut off Japan from her resources is just a risk diversion imho. It might be a heck of a lot of fun, but it doesn't look to me like optimal play.

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 4:41:59 PM

jeffk3510

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Anyone see that lousy pass Drew Breese threw on Sunday on his way to 8 touchdowns in the air?

Just invade Korea.

Tyler Palko.. enough said.

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 4:46:00 PM

String

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A suggestion. Won't some of your heavies have the range to supply Chungking (like b29's) so that you can get the grounded planes out of there?

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 4:54:50 PM

Canoerebel

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I look at the map, consider what GJ has accomplished, and bow in his general direction. He is da man.�

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 12/8/2011 5:14:33 PM >

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 5:14:28 PM

Nemo121

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Edited since the original post calling GJ a prodigy was edited.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 12/8/2011 5:15:28 PM >

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 5:38:20 PM

Canoerebel

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GJ is a prodigy.

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 6:43:28 PM

Braedonnal

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I haven't been posting but I have been watching and I don't think you are quite understanding Nemo's point.�

I think the point is that if you flatten those a/c factories, losses be damned (Nemo is the type of player that doesn't get attached to pixel fighter and bomber groups), it will hurt Rader far more than you.� Fly the bombers, Douhet style and laugh at every fighter that gets shot down against your bombers.� Laugh when they ram your bomber, that's a dead fighter.� Laugh when your bombers hit those factories, those are fighters you never have to face.� You 'kill two birds with one stone' as we say, you shoot down operational fighters AND you flatten his fighter production.� Sure, you will take losses, maybe even severe losses at first BUT you will replace yours and Rader's defenses will just get weaker and weaker as you destroy his production and that is the whole point of the operation, no?

Stop saying you 'can't' do this or 'this isn't doable'.� You 'can', if you are willing to pay the price, and if the price is ultimately worth paying, why wouldn't you pay it? ��

Back to lurker mode...

Edit: I got so carried away there that I forgot to say thanks for one of the most ballsy moves I've seen in a game. It's been a pleasure to read. Keep at it.

< Message edited by Braedonnal -- 12/8/2011 6:47:32 PM >

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 6:47:53 PM

Cap Mandrake

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

GJ is a prodigy.�

Wait...have you met him? Couldn't he be like an WITP/AE idiot savant?

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Post #: 4257

RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 7:06:34 PM

Canoerebel

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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Given his creativity at spelling, I suppose that's possible....

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 7:08:30 PM

Cribtop

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Hokkaido... Definitely time for Hokkaido... Not time for razors, just Hokkaido.

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RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 8:54:10 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Yep, GJ is like King Midas. From now on anything he touches will turn to gold. Two months, four months, six months....it does not matter. Rader is done for and how GJ does it is not material. He is gonna have a lot of fun no mattter. I have pretty much stepped away from giving him advice. We all should be on Rader's AAR now-giving him our advice.

I'm not sure I totally agree. GJ is in a great position and has a number of interesting choices in front of him. Its a situation almost any Allied player would love to be in because of the sheer number of plausible options he has on the table. His plate is full.

On the flip side though, the Japanese Army, Navy, and Airforce remain undefeated. Radar caught them out of position and grabbed a *great* piece of real estate, but they're still out there and ultimately have to be defeated to win the game.

As others have suggested, the optimal path to wrecking the Japanese armed forces at this point is to go after aircraft production. It does not put any allied strategic assets at risk, and it leverages GJ's position on Hokaido. GJ will lose bombers doing it, to be sure, and he may even wreck his 4E force in the process and take them out of the game for months, but frankly, who cares if he takes out the Japanese aircraft industry in the process?

Fundamentally the way you win the game is you wreck Japan's armed forces, and the way you wreck her armed forces it to wreck her economy. All the other operations you launch as the allies, the invasions, the fleet actions, the base building, etc, are all just preamble put yourself in a position to wreck her economy.

Now clearly there's more than one way to wreck the Japanese economy, at a high level you can wreck it indirectly by starving it of resources, or you can directly destroy the production facilities. In GJ's case he's positioned for a direct bombing campaign, that's his play.

Changing his mind at this point and using Hokaido as, say, a springboard for invasions of Okinawa to cut off Japan from her resources is just a risk diversion imho. It might be a heck of a lot of fun, but it doesn't look to me like optimal play.

I see what you are saying but my point is that it is Rader who is out options. Rader has to attack now or he is just plain dead. And he has to attack soon before his industry gets slammed. And it better be damned brilliant. It matters little that Rader is relatively intact because GJ is himself relatively intact. He has saved his carriers and that is the key. I would hate to be the Japanese player and have to attack the Allies in mid 1944 but that is exactly what Rader must do. Of course, Rader can hit a home run. But it is a long shot. My money is on GJ and I don't think it is a bet I can lose..

Except for China, the Japanese ability to win a land campaign is virtually nil at this stage. And Rader's ability to win an air campaign decreases with every passing day. It has to be a naval battle and he has to win big time. And it has to happen soon.

Like I said, Hokkaido is an open wound. It can't be ignored by Rader.

As a result GJ is in a position to do a lot more damage to Rader at a lot more points on the map. Simply because Rader has no option but to tend to his "Hokkaido problem"

If it were me, I would drag it out and have some fun. GJ is living every AFBs wet dream here.... I want to be Greyjoy! I want to have his baby..

Wait...what did I just say?