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RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 6:25:52 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		He for sure has a point. That's what i just wrote to him

I perfectly understand what you mean andrew. But at the same time i don't think i've "abused" the code that much this time...i sent there a quite respectable force (nearly 50 DD/APDs with some 40 more transports of different natures).
And, for what it worth, you know i won't keep useless ships into your bases just like that...i've never done that. This was a "serious" operational feint...it was planned to lure the japs into a losing battle.

But i get the fact that, if not HRed, this could let me keep constant abusive cap traps.

The idea that a CAP trap must have at least some CV/CVEs isn't a bad one imho...at least if you wanna do that you need to risk something... but we need to decide how many. 180 a/c (so to say 2 CV or 6 CVEs) sounds reasonable?
 
 
 

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 5011
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 6:26:16 PM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Dan/GreyJoy-

I saw the emails, and your response, but did not comment.

I would have to agree with you 100% Dan.

I think he is a little upset he fell for a HUGE diversion and lots a LOT of planes and pilots...

_____________________________

Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.

Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 5012
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 7:26:08 PM   
cwDeici

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 12/6/2011
Status: offline 		Seems fair to me, he should've been reconning more and those ships weren't fodder, some of them were quite valuable 2nd rate ships. But naval strike priority needs to be fixed.

Also, a good number of his subs went down, but I guess that's not an issue.

< Message edited by cwDeici -- 1/6/2012 7:37:24 PM >

(in reply to jeffk3510)
Post #: 5013
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 7:29:50 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline 		Didn't McArther do something like this at Inchon? BTW, GJ, Don't know how you feel about McArther so this was not meant as an insult

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to cwDeici)
Post #: 5014
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 7:38:31 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		If you ask me, custom-built ammo-eater barge convoys in likely landing areas is a bit gamey.

There are two general tests for "gameyness":

1) Historical plausibility...already out the window with Scenario 2 and thousands of top-end Jap fighters aloft...not to mention a virtually unreconned landing of Hokkaido in 1944 . In a certain sense, sending unladen AK's and DD into harm's way as bait for enemy air attacks would be unlikely to be undertaken by the USN because of the morale and political consequences. I would be entirely plausible for a desperate Japan.

2) Purposeful abuse of the game engine. I dont think that applies here. It's not like these were singlet or tiny groups. This was a large task force with many warships that would plausibly invite an enemy attack. Rader might have chsoen to ground his bombers until a sure target was identified but he chose to feed them all red meat and turn them loose. Frustrating, yes, but not abusive. Even more, his best attack only landed 3 torps. That would not likely have sunk major Allied vessels.

(in reply to jeffk3510)
Post #: 5015
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 7:46:40 PM   
Panther Bait


Posts: 654
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		Ouch!  I think someone's OODA loop just got invaded. 

Nice job, you evil, evil man.  I especially liked the touch of marching troops to a base you know he wasn't reconning/searching.

Mike

P.S. And if he had been looking harder, he could have bombed those troops on the march and done some damage.

_____________________________

When you shoot at a destroyer and miss, it's like hit'in a wildcat in the ass with a banjo.

Nathan Dogan, USS Gurnard

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 5016
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 7:49:28 PM   
Starkiller


Posts: 3
Joined: 1/5/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Hmmm. It was an inspiration to watch you, GreyJoy, go from bumbling newbie, to planning that incredibly complex
operation in Japan's eastern islands. Very nice indeed.

This talk of "Gamey" tactics bothers me though. I'm a computer wargame newbie, but an Avalon Hill vet from the
long ago days of board wargaming. Long ago, as in 30+ years.
Some things I consider "gamey", others I don't. I don't believe in following history to the letter, and enjoy games
the most, when they let me change history by not making the same mistakes. I also believe if it can be done in RL,
it can be done in the game, engine shortcomings or not. However, I'm aware that one man's valid tactic is another
man's gamey tactic. Has any of the WitP vets considered putting together a list of considered "gamey" tactics or game
engine misuse, to be stickied, and used as a reference for PBEM Home rules? It would cut down on misunderstandings
and hurt feelings, I think.

Starkiller

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 5017
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 8:35:24 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

However, I'm aware that one man's valid tactic is another
man's gamey tactic. Has any of the WitP vets considered putting together a list of considered "gamey" tactics or game
engine misuse, to be stickied, and used as a reference for PBEM Home rules? It would cut down on misunderstandings
and hurt feelings, I think.


Too complicated. Not everyone will ever agree. Yet another reason this is such an interesting game and forum. But that is also why the two players need good communication.

You and Rader do have that GreyJoy. When he was pulling many moves most players did consider gamey, you didn't freak out. He has been fairly conversational in tone throughout as well.

My feeling is this was a brilliant idea, but not necessarily needed, as evidenced by the numbers shown in the reports. If it was a tactic to just asses the strength of the Japanese side I would agree with it completely, and I do still agree it is not gamey as is, just not necessary with the force you have available up there. Really, based on the numbers you threw out earlier to even take down 10% of your force he'd have to sink about 50-70 ships, and you'd land just fine and hold the base even if that happened.

Consider also that he might have a lot more still waiting he didn't commit right away, and that his emails could be a ploy as well. There weren't the masses that sunk the CVEs it looks like from the reports, unless we don't have the full story yet.

In the end GJ, we just want to see butts on the beach! Not all of this dallying around!

(in reply to Starkiller)
Post #: 5018
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 8:46:40 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		Given the way this game has played up to this point, it seems both players have chits they've cashed in to accomplish some very unhistorical operations - and both sides have had their fair share of bloody noses (or lost limbs, as the case may be).

I don't see anything wrong with decoy operations - especially given how few losses GJ took - if it had been the real deal, Rader would have suffered the same fate anyway.

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 5019
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 9:06:23 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Seems like a righteous deception operation. I think if you just sent a merchant TF in that would have been gamey. Those landing ships are font-line invasion combatants as are the warships that escorted them

(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 5020
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 9:09:11 PM   
soticrandy

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline 		One hairy situation GreyJoy and Rader have gotten into.


Edit: Outstanding deception, definitely a grey area when it comes to gamey play.




< Message edited by soticrandy -- 1/6/2012 9:34:01 PM >

(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 5021
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 9:27:38 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: soticrandy

One hairy situation GreyJoy and Rader have gotten into.




And so bony.

_____________________________



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Post #: 5022
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 9:45:32 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Posted on Radars AAR as well.

Hmmmm. Well you two are both pretty considerate of the other's opinion. That is what makes this a great fight. However, you can't be just a little bit pregnant. A CAP trap is a CAP trap and you both have used them in the past. (and we all pretty much use them) It is pretty hard to determine which would be OK and which would not. You and GJ have to decide to either allow them or not. Simple as that. Any other course would just lead to misunderstandings and regret. And if they are allowed then his trap in this case was legit. Not because it was fair but because the precedent has already been set. My two cents.



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(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 5023
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 9:51:08 PM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		GJ,

Due to the uniquely interesting situation in this game I have taken to reading both AARs, which is why have have stopped posting substantive advice over the past few days. However, I did read the posts CR referred to about your e-mails with Rader. First, I compliment you both on a reasoned exchange without vitriol (sorry, I'm a little behind on my big words for this month ). Second, one point even Rader conceded in that exchange was that the USN made use IRL of operations like this designed to bait the IJ air forces to destruction in advance of the real invasions. This alone makes it tough IMHO to call your action gamey. I will admit that given the lack of player control over strike targets (other than range, which in this case is moot as it was in his base hex) there could be problems with overuse of this tactic, especially in the context of 2 day turns. However, on balance I have to rule "not gamey."

_____________________________


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Post #: 5024
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 10:34:56 PM   
ADB123

 

Posts: 1559
Joined: 8/18/2009
Status: offline
quote:

I know he ate it becuase Aikita, Ominato, Aomori and Hachinoe were suddenly crowded with empty barges and midget subs...


Hmmm - that's a "funny" way to prepare a defence...

Empty barges, eh?

...

At least if they were MTBs or something else PT-like it might be a bit more understandable...

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 5025
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 10:40:46 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Hmmm - that's a "funny" way to prepare a defence...

Empty barges, eh?

Thats a thought. Why the empty barges? Was this to soak up airstrikes or surface attacks? Now that does sound gamey

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to ADB123)
Post #: 5026
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 10:50:07 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		I think you will find you cant win the arguements here.

One suggestion was to be able to set Nav Attack to only attack certain types of TF.
Firstly your TF would need to be spotted which apparently it wasnt.
Then the Recce pilots would have to correctly ID the ships, and have complaints that there were BB or CVE in your feint.
Then complaints would come out about "my bombers dont sortie"

I think the closeness of forces here makes it very hard for rader to counter, there just isnt time to spot and react properly. If you tried this based in the Marianas or Phillipines he could see you coming and prepare properly.

But thats part of the cost of not finishing you off in India and getting stuck in the Solomons, and most recently not ensuring a complete Recce coverage of your forces.

And I second ABD123's question about barges, used to soak off ammo???
Matbe rader should look at his own abusing off the game engine!

Keep bashing away, 5000 aircraft at Tokyo might be a tempting target??


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(in reply to ADB123)
Post #: 5027
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 11:08:42 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

And I second ABD123's question about barges, used to soak off ammo???
Matbe rader should look at his own abusing off the game engine!

agree 100% gamey, pure and simple

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 5028
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 11:11:24 PM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Rader took the bait...hes upset...thats all there is to it.

_____________________________

Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.

Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 5029
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 11:23:57 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Rader took the bait...hes upset...thats all there is to it.

Like I said, Inchon, precedent, barges flooding a landing zone? gamey. As recently as Desert Storm the Marine 13th EF made an amphibious feint to draw Iraqi forces. Guess Sadam forgot the barges there.

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to jeffk3510)
Post #: 5030
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 11:29:07 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline 		Have to agree with ppl here, the empty barges placed there were likely ment to soak up aerial attacks, surface attacks and slow you down, that is more gamey in my eyes than what you did.

Terje

_____________________________

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("She is to be torpedoed!")

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 5031
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 11:37:18 PM   
Braedonnal

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline 		You know how I feel GJ.  Pickets are fine by me.  Hell, park one DD out there with a couple support ships.  I mean, wasn't that the general composition of the Okinawa picket groups?  You'll hear cries of "No commander would waste all those aircraft after those targets."  No commander would have any real control over it.  Put a suicidal zealot in a cockpit and he'd generally dive on the first and largest target he found.  That's why picket group destroyers suffered so much.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 5032
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 11:41:35 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Have to agree with ppl here, the empty barges placed there were likely ment to soak up aerial attacks, surface attacks and slow you down, that is more gamey in my eyes than what you did.

So GJ sent empty ships and Rader defended with empty ships and makes a complaint? I think the 600 airplane penalty is about right.

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Braedonnal)
Post #: 5033
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 11:57:20 PM   
pws1225

 

Posts: 1166
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

So GJ sent empty ships and Rader defended with empty ships ...



Well now, that just about sums it all up. Case closed.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 5034
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/6/2012 11:58:29 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Braedonnal

You know how I feel GJ.  Pickets are fine by me.  Hell, park one DD out there with a couple support ships.  I mean, wasn't that the general composition of the Okinawa picket groups?  You'll hear cries of "No commander would waste all those aircraft after those targets."  No commander would have any real control over it.  Put a suicidal zealot in a cockpit and he'd generally dive on the first and largest target he found.  That's why picket group destroyers suffered so much.


Actually .. at least according to the British speaking guy in WWII in Color .. the Pickets were targeted because they were alerting the raids .. the first waves of raids at Oki met with much CAP ..so they Kami's drank thier saki and went after the early warning pickets with the thought the follow on raids would penatrate .. but that was not the first thoughts ..the Japanese dudes on World at War seem to support this as I recall ..

By ths same source it would seem that more than 1 ship per 46 miles was comitted since in the scene portrayed I see at least 4 within 2K yards or so ..

I am really trying to put this all in perspective but I rather think Rader got his hand caught in the cookie jar ...

(in reply to Braedonnal)
Post #: 5035
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/7/2012 12:17:55 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		Guys...i'm gratefull for the fact that you keep on supporting me...but...please...i really don't want that this is transformed into a pubblic bias on Rader.
He (Andrew) is a friend and a wonderfull and educated person. I really learnt to love (in a "non-homo" meaning of the word) this canadian guy!
I really think he has a point. He's just saying that, if exploited and used on a regular basis, this "tactic" could really game the game-mechanics...and he's right i think.
On this particular case however i think this was an OPERATION...not a "tactic"...an Operation in its full litterarly meaning.
I've worked hard to arrive here...several weeks of studying his routines and on setting up the good feint... so i feel i was well inside the limit.

However, to solve the problem we agreed on a new HR: "Naval CAP TRAPs must use as bait TFs composed at least of platforms with 180 planes (so to say 2 CVs or 5CVEs)"...so if you wanna do it you have to run the risk of losing valuable assets.

And i was exagerating....Rader only set up 2 big empty barges TFs that were sunk by my PTs...not hundreds of them...so the term "overcrowded" is way beyond the reality.


Now the turn has arrived...let's take a look

Again...one last time...believe me: Rader is a good one

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 5036
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/7/2012 12:27:57 AM   
Braedonnal

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Actually .. at least according to the British speaking guy in WWII in Color .. the Pickets were targeted because they were alerting the raids .. the first waves of raids at Oki met with much CAP ..so they Kami's drank thier saki and went after the early warning pickets with the thought the follow on raids would penatrate .. but that was not the first thoughts ..the Japanese dudes on World at War seem to support this as I recall ..

By ths same source it would seem that more than 1 ship per 46 miles was comitted since in the scene portrayed I see at least 4 within 2K yards or so ..

I am really trying to put this all in perspective but I rather think Rader got his hand caught in the cookie jar ...


Silly WWII in Color! I'll go with what Vice Admiral Turner said in 1947.

One of the things that was very fortunate for the transports and the troops was that the Japanese suicide airplanes, as soon as they began to be attacked by our outlying fighters, would themselves deliver attacks on our pickets instead of trying to penetrate our screen to attack the transports. It was tough on the pickets, but the Japanese themselves thus contributed to the successful defense of the vulnerable elements of the Amphibious Force.

And you are right about the number of ships in a general picket group, in 1945, they started with a DD with a couple LCS(L) but after heavier attacks had two or three DDs with additional LCS(L). The DD's took the brunt of the hits as they were larger targets than the supporting ships.

Anyways. Gamey barges, gamey army telephone poles in China and India and gamey overland marching deserves a good CAP trap, gamey or not.

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 5037
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/7/2012 12:31:55 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		. lots of new aces

The 75th RAAF squadron got 13 kills today...Go aussies!!!




Attachment (1)

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 5038
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/7/2012 12:48:01 AM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Im sure he is a good guy GJ....just seems like whenever something doesnt go his way he asks for a HR and or a beta change....thats my observation....he got caught with his pants down. You did NOTHING wrong

< Message edited by jeffk3510 -- 1/7/2012 12:54:11 AM >

_____________________________

Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.

Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

(in reply to Braedonnal)
Post #: 5039
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/7/2012 1:29:53 AM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		I would agree - it wouldn't be the first time. You play with fire & you're going to get burned.

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to jeffk3510)
Post #: 5040
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