Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

To hell with pirates and hackers who have brought our hobby to this point.

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ORIGINAL: bean5671

....GOOD POST I never read the steamworks EULA I will have to now

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ORIGINAL: Steam Subscriber Agreement section 7.C.

C. NO GUARANTEES.

VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).

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ORIGINAL: Greybriar

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ORIGINAL: bean5671

....GOOD POST I never read the steamworks EULA I will have to now

All you really need to read in the Steam Subscriber Agreement is section 7.C. which states:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steam Subscriber Agreement section 7.C.

C. NO GUARANTEES.




VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).

quote:

Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of software and other content and updates onto your computer ("Software"). You may not use the Software for any purpose other than the permitted access to Steam and your Subscriptions. You understand that for reasons that include, without limitation, system security, stability, and multiplayer interoperability, Steam may need to automatically update, pre-load, create new versions or otherwise enhance the Software and accordingly, the system requirements to use the Software may change over time. You understand that neither this Agreement nor the terms associated with a particular Subscription entitles you to future updates, new versions or other enhancements of the Software associated with a particular Subscription although Valve may choose to provide such updates, etc. in its sole discretion.

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10. EXCLUSIVE REMEDIES

A. EXCLUSIVE REMEDY -- STEAM AND THE SOFTWARE.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY DISPUTE WITH VALVE WITH REGARD TO STEAM OR THE SOFTWARE IS TO DISCONTINUE USE OF STEAM AND CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT. BECAUSE SOME STATES OR JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR THE LIMITATION OF LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, IN SUCH STATES OR JURISDICTIONS, VALVE, ITS LICENSORS, AND THEIR AFFILIATES LIABILITY SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW.

B. EXCLUSIVE REMEDY--MERCHANDISE.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT WITH REGARD TO ANY MERCHANDISE YOU PURCHASE VIA STEAM AS YOUR EXCLUSIVE REMEDY, IN ADDITION TO THE REMEDIES EXPRESSLY SET FORTH IN SECTION 3(C), VALVE MAY INCLUDE IN ITS OPTION THE RIGHT TO PAY TO YOU THE AMOUNT OF DIRECT DAMAGES ACTUALLY INCURRED BY YOU IN REASONABLE RELIANCE ON SUCH MERCHANDISE, AS LONG AS THAT AMOUNT DOES NOT EXCEED THE AMOUNT YOU PAID VALVE FOR THE MERCHANDISE GIVING RISE TO THOSE DAMAGES.

THIS SECTION WILL APPLY TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW.

11. INDEMNIFICATION

You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Valve, its licensors and their affiliates from all liabilities, claims and expenses, including attorneys' fees, that arise from or in connection with breach of this Agreement, use of Steam or any Subscription or any related content, or any User Generated Information, including, but not limited to, the creation, distribution, promotion and use of any Mods, by you or any person(s) using your Account. Valve reserves the right, at its own expense, to assume the exclusive defense and control of any matter otherwise subject to indemnification by you. In that event, you shall have no further obligation to provide indemnification to Valve in that matter. This Section regarding Indemnification shall survive termination of this Agreement.

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ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

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ORIGINAL: Greybriar

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ORIGINAL: bean5671

....GOOD POST I never read the steamworks EULA I will have to now

All you really need to read in the Steam Subscriber Agreement is section 7.C. which states:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steam Subscriber Agreement section 7.C.

C. NO GUARANTEES.




VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).

That is pretty standard for any EULA. Otherwise it would open them to all sorts of potential law suits.
Read the World of Warcraft EULA sometime, it does not offer an guarantees either. It does not even offer compensation for your monthly subscription if the servers go down.
It also states that Blizzard can at any time revoke your service or shut down the entire game with so many days notice.
If you read the EULA for any game with an online component it says they can shut down the online component after a certain time. For most sports games it is 365 days after a game is released. For Starcraft 2 I think it was also 12 months after the game has been released.

EULA's do not mean a company is evil or trying to screw you. They have to be written in order to satisfy the lowest common denominator. Which is to protect the company and it's employees from litigation.

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ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Standard for an MMOG perhaps. Many of the games available on Steam are single player games for which network connectivity is in no way inherent to gameplay.

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ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

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ORIGINAL: Greybriar

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ORIGINAL: bean5671

....GOOD POST I never read the steamworks EULA I will have to now

All you really need to read in the Steam Subscriber Agreement is section 7.C. which states:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steam Subscriber Agreement section 7.C.

C. NO GUARANTEES.




VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).

That is pretty standard for any EULA. Otherwise it would open them to all sorts of potential law suits.
Read the World of Warcraft EULA sometime, it does not offer an guarantees either. It does not even offer compensation for your monthly subscription if the servers go down.
It also states that Blizzard can at any time revoke your service or shut down the entire game with so many days notice.
If you read the EULA for any game with an online component it says they can shut down the online component after a certain time. For most sports games it is 365 days after a game is released. For Starcraft 2 I think it was also 12 months after the game has been released.

EULA's do not mean a company is evil or trying to screw you. They have to be written in order to satisfy the lowest common denominator. Which is to protect the company and it's employees from litigation.

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ORIGINAL: bean5671
I have been out of the loop for to long
I bought my first PC in 86/87 a 386 sx moved to a 486dx2 in 89 that was my first gaming machine That machine was how I got my first real job ironically because I had pirated Autocad and wrote a little addon for my high school drafting class, Softdesk bought it from me really they hired me but the program came with me, back than it was a sweet deal for a high school junior. Crazy how 20 years ago I did pirate a program and got hired for it but now I am not pirating but are paying the price for it I moved to Autodesk after the merger and have been in the IT/GIS industry ever since.

Funny Autodesk was/is one ofthe toughest on pirates but they have not gone to these levels and still dont and last i looked a copy of REVIT or Catia cost between 6000 and 10000 dollars a license but are very easy to install heck its just a license file

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ORIGINAL: Lützow

There is a flip side of the coin. The majority of revenue goes to people who are not involved into development, but merely pay royalties to studios, don't hesitate to dumb down games for the sake of higher profits, and invent business models to eliminate intermediate trade and second hand market, while contiuously delivering less to the customer. Regarding these facts, tell me who is more detrimental for our hobby: pirates or the copyright industry?

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ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Personally, I have great loathing for people who do not want those who worked to produce a title to get paid and are willing to rip them off. But then there is this long-term dimension too. I suppose that eventually MOST games become abandonware, though some probably have far more market longevity than others.

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ORIGINAL: mullk

Unfortunately the piracy and DRM  issue isn't going to go away.  A long time ago I remember speaking to a sales rep at a conference for a company who developed and distributed computer games.  He sold exactly one copy of this game in Las Vegas NV.  Everyone in town had a copy however and complained bitterly how he was ripping them off because he was charging for what they were getting from their friends for free.  He left the conference and returned to ask his company to no longer support this particular platform for development due to piracy.  I remember early in computer games of titles and companies going under because of lack of sales yet somehow everyone had a copy they got from someone else.  Everyone I knew who was pirating stated that they did it because games were too expensive.  My friends felt the correct price for a game was the cost of the disk only and any other money made was "ripping them off".

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ORIGINAL: mullk

Theft is a major issue everywhere. I didn't believe this until I worked retail and saw the MASSIVE amounts stolen from every store I ever worked in.

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ORIGINAL: mullk

As for the argument that stealing software isn't stealing something is plain foolish. We buy goods and services in our daily lives and software is a service. Programs don't grow on trees, someone writes them often for money. Stealing a service is still stealing.

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ORIGINAL: Zakhal

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ORIGINAL: bean5671
I have been out of the loop for to long
I bought my first PC in 86/87 a 386 sx moved to a 486dx2 in 89 that was my first gaming machine That machine was how I got my first real job ironically because I had pirated Autocad and wrote a little addon for my high school drafting class, Softdesk bought it from me really they hired me but the program came with me, back than it was a sweet deal for a high school junior. Crazy how 20 years ago I did pirate a program and got hired for it but now I am not pirating but are paying the price for it I moved to Autodesk after the merger and have been in the IT/GIS industry ever since.

Funny Autodesk was/is one ofthe toughest on pirates but they have not gone to these levels and still dont and last i looked a copy of REVIT or Catia cost between 6000 and 10000 dollars a license but are very easy to install heck its just a license file

I have som architect friends who have worked with pirated autocads for ten years now with som addons. One of them sayd he payed two beers for one of his friends to copy it for him originally. Official versions are so expensive they are not even thinking of buying them.

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ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Its amazing how cluless about law some people are,....especially consumer laws. Almost EVERY single civilized nations has consumer proctection laws that mean these EULA's are worthless. You can not sign away certain rights,....and in fact there is no signature on a EULA, thereofore IT IS NOT A BINDING AGREEMENT.

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ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Ask your brother in law lawyer about invalidating a contract. He will inform you that one single item in a contract that is not legal invalidates the entire contract. All EULA's contain the statement that the company that made the software is not responsible if that software damages your PC. THAT is illegal,....that is a right you can not sign away. That invalidates the EULA. So yes,....while a lot of whats in the EULA is valid,....and while clicking on the EULA is a valid way of entering a contract,...whats IN the EULA invalidates it. Thats how consumer law makes a EULA worthelss. You can not have a person sign away their right to sue tyou for negligence. Even if they sign a contract stating just that,...the contract is worthless.

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ORIGINAL: Perturabo

EULAs usually state that these limited warranty paragraphs don't apply to states/countries where one can't sign away his customer rights.

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ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

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ORIGINAL: Perturabo

EULAs usually state that these limited warranty paragraphs don't apply to states/countries where one can't sign away his customer rights.

And that is the same as the sign on the truck. The contract is a whole document,. you cant pick and choose which parts of it to enforce. If it part of it is illegal in a certain state or country,...then the entire EULA is invalid in that state or country. BUT wait a minute. Let me add something here. I am basing this off of a lawsuit I went through over 20 years ago. A contract dispute. Sadly,....its possible,...and the way things have been going, likley,.... that the laws have changed in that time. I know most laws passed in that time concerning consumer proctection have only weakened the conumers rights and made it easier for corporations to screw over the consumer and get away with it.,.......so it would not surprise me if the laws have changed and I am wrong,....as I said a good bit of time has passed.



And lets also not forget,...at least in the US,........judges cant even agree on what some laws mean,...so its possible that another judge would give a far different ruling.

There are so many different ways a EULA can be legally attacked who knows which ones are valid and would work, and which ones wont.



What it REALLY comes down to is a EULA cant overide the law. The law will protect most poeple from getting screwed over.

To the guy who initially started this thread- you bought the software knowing it needed steam to work. If you didnt know it needed steam thats your fault for not reading the required system specs for the game. By modifying the software without permission, you did violate the terms of the EULA,...terms a court will hold up. You dont own the software,...just as you dont own a leased car. You cant modify the software, just as you cant modify a leased car.

BUT since you are doing no harm to the company, and are not costing the company any sales, they wont bother with you aside from the bannings on the forums. Which can be easily fixed by creating another account. So you have the games and can play them. You can still get on the forums if you really want...................I dont see a problem.

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ORIGINAL: Perturabo

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ORIGINAL: Lützow

There is a flip side of the coin. The majority of revenue goes to people who are not involved into development, but merely pay royalties to studios, don't hesitate to dumb down games for the sake of higher profits, and invent business models to eliminate intermediate trade and second hand market, while contiuously delivering less to the customer. Regarding these facts, tell me who is more detrimental for our hobby: pirates or the copyright industry?

I think that it's the gaming industry who did most damage as pirates are already factored in the business. At some point in 2000s making niche games that get sales like 100,000 or 200,000 copies (for example cRPGs like Fallout or Temple of Elemental Evil) stopped being a viable option because it wouldn't be possible to find a publisher or even retailers for them despite that these games did bring income. It's just not enough for the industry. That's why Sir-Tech died, Troika died and classical games like Fallout and X-Com get FPS "re-imaginings" done by "fans of the series".
Besides niche publishers and indies it's all about dumbing-down and pandering to the lowest common denominator. It's about ever increasing returns from investments.

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ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Personally, I have great loathing for people who do not want those who worked to produce a title to get paid and are willing to rip them off. But then there is this long-term dimension too. I suppose that eventually MOST games become abandonware, though some probably have far more market longevity than others.

Personally, I hate one subgroup of pirates - the "why should I pay if I can get it for free" types. It's basically as if they have some rules that forbid them to pay for software. Personally, I know only two such people, though.

Ironically, I'm more annoyed that a lot of people who I know don't wait with purchase until games are sold in less expensive editions. I know some people who are partially supported by parents, have no savings, and still are ready to spend their last money on some new game. It's so irresponsible. Not to mention that it's unpatriotic. Wasting their hard work on buying expensive digital copies (which will become worth many time less in several years) from over-privileged countries instead of building the wealth of their own family/nation.

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ORIGINAL: mullk

Unfortunately the piracy and DRM  issue isn't going to go away.  A long time ago I remember speaking to a sales rep at a conference for a company who developed and distributed computer games.  He sold exactly one copy of this game in Las Vegas NV.  Everyone in town had a copy however and complained bitterly how he was ripping them off because he was charging for what they were getting from their friends for free.  He left the conference and returned to ask his company to no longer support this particular platform for development due to piracy.  I remember early in computer games of titles and companies going under because of lack of sales yet somehow everyone had a copy they got from someone else.  Everyone I knew who was pirating stated that they did it because games were too expensive.  My friends felt the correct price for a game was the cost of the disk only and any other money made was "ripping them off".

Wow. Just wow. I have never met such weird people in my whole life. I mean, how is it even possible? What is this, I don't even

People swapping software happens all the time your not aware of this??? Back in the early days of home computers clubs were set up that made an industry of software piracy.

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ORIGINAL: mullk

Theft is a major issue everywhere. I didn't believe this until I worked retail and saw the MASSIVE amounts stolen from every store I ever worked in.

Taking in account the above, somehow I'm not surprised. Have you ever considered moving?

I have been around the world and theft is a major issue everywhere. While I'm not a major fan of Wal-Mart it reports thefts of billions of dollars every year. Most theft is employees unfortunately. Some of my coworkers in the past felt they were under paid and felt theft was OK as they felt they were entitled to steal as they were underpaid. I think this view is vile but it is the feeling of some folks out their.

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ORIGINAL: mullk

As for the argument that stealing software isn't stealing something is plain foolish. We buy goods and services in our daily lives and software is a service. Programs don't grow on trees, someone writes them often for money. Stealing a service is still stealing.

Software isn't a service. Writing software on order is a service. Pirates don't order software therefore they don't get the service. You're trying to name something as something that it isn't to make it look worse than it is. What's the point of it?

The service to me is the writing of the software. Again software doesn't grow on trees so someone had to write it. Just because you didn't order the service doesn't mean it's not a service. The service is worked in advance and people pay for the service when they use the fruits of that service. When you buy the software you provide money to the programming team, publisher, shippers, warehouse and retail employees who are trying to earn a living.

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ORIGINAL: Zakhal

quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671
I have been out of the loop for to long
I bought my first PC in 86/87 a 386 sx moved to a 486dx2 in 89 that was my first gaming machine That machine was how I got my first real job ironically because I had pirated Autocad and wrote a little addon for my high school drafting class, Softdesk bought it from me really they hired me but the program came with me, back than it was a sweet deal for a high school junior. Crazy how 20 years ago I did pirate a program and got hired for it but now I am not pirating but are paying the price for it I moved to Autodesk after the merger and have been in the IT/GIS industry ever since.

Funny Autodesk was/is one ofthe toughest on pirates but they have not gone to these levels and still dont and last i looked a copy of REVIT or Catia cost between 6000 and 10000 dollars a license but are very easy to install heck its just a license file

I have som architect friends who have worked with pirated autocads for ten years now with som addons. One of them sayd he payed two beers for one of his friends to copy it for him originally. Official versions are so expensive they are not even thinking of buying them.

The price of Autocad is insane. My mother's company hired a person to draft by hand for years after we got a computer because we weren't able to afford Autocad or even any alternative. Finally, when 4 years ago my mother had to replace drafting by hand because customers wouldn't accept plans that weren't done on computer, I have searched for a reasonable alternative and I have found QCad which costed me 24 Euro. I use it to this day.

I think that people who get really hurt by the "I can't afford it so I'll pirate" thing is the companies that produce less expensive alternatives and developers of free alternatives that simply get marginalized. Personally, I use Linux instead of Windows (too expensive and less user friendly than it used to be), Open Office instead Office (again, too expensive) and QCad instead of Autocad (insanely expensive).

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ORIGINAL: mullk

People swapping software happens all the time your not aware of this??? Back in the early days of home computers clubs were set up that made an industry of software piracy.

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ORIGINAL: mullk

I have been around the world and theft is a major issue everywhere. While I'm not a major fan of Wal-Mart it reports thefts of billions of dollars every year. Most theft is employees unfortunately. Some of my coworkers in the past felt they were under paid and felt theft was OK as they felt they were entitled to steal as they were underpaid. I think this view is vile but it is the feeling of some folks out their.

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ORIGINAL: mullk

The service to me is the writing of the software. Again software doesn't grow on trees so someone had to write it. Just because you didn't order the service doesn't mean it's not a service. The service is worked in advance and people pay for the service when they use the fruits of that service. When you buy the software you provide money to the programming team, publisher, shippers, warehouse and retail employees who are trying to earn a living.

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ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

EULA's do not mean a company is evil or trying to screw you. They have to be written in order to satisfy the lowest common denominator. Which is to protect the company and it's employees from litigation.

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ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel

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ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

EULA's do not mean a company is evil or trying to screw you. They have to be written in order to satisfy the lowest common denominator. Which is to protect the company and it's employees from litigation.

In the past, sure. Nowadays some companies are using it to rewrite their own version of customer ownership laws.

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ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Then there were optical disk drives damaged by Starforce (IIRC one of the forum users suffered from it).

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ORIGINAL: Perturabo
You could as well claim that writing a book is a service and anyone that uses libraries (doesn't pay for that service) is stealing.

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ORIGINAL: JosEPh_II


Very interesting debate and situation. And it emphasizes exactly why I, personally, will Never get a steam acct no matter how good the game is.

I will never play Civ V, even though I have hard copies of II, III, and IV, plus the expansions. They killed the series for me.

God Bless the indie developers and Long may they Live!

JosEPh

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ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

This thread is getting long, it's getting about that time for a spam bot to copy and paste a random post from here.......

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

This thread is getting long, it's getting about that time for a spam bot to copy and paste a random post from here.......

Okay then - random post: Name that song from which the lyrics below come from?

What are those dogs doing sniffing at my feet
They're on to something, picking up
Picking up this heat, this heat

Give me *****
And how you feel to make it real
Real as anything you've seen
Get a life with this dreamer's dream

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!