Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/25/2011 3:42:26 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline 		Was there a problem with the Refit mode? Because with the latest patch it effectively removes that mode from the German side, which keeps it's entire combat force adjacent to enemy held hexes throughout the game. The Soviets, on the other hand, with their ability to buy empty units, can use the mode to rapidly fill up those units.

Were the Germans overpowered that they had to have this mode neutered on them?



< Message edited by carnifex -- 4/25/2011 3:44:44 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/25/2011 4:19:13 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: carnifex

Was there a problem with the Refit mode? Because with the latest patch it effectively removes that mode from the German side, which keeps it's entire combat force adjacent to enemy held hexes throughout the game. The Soviets, on the other hand, with their ability to buy empty units, can use the mode to rapidly fill up those units.

Were the Germans overpowered that they had to have this mode neutered on them?



I had most of my panzers on refit all the time, which kind of made it a bit silly. I like the change, I think refit mode should be for resting away from the front, and both sides did that historically with worn out units. Though I admit I have not played long enough with 1.04 to really be able to judge the effects.

(in reply to carnifex)
Post #: 2
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/25/2011 4:55:26 PM   
hfarrish

 

Posts: 734
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline
I think the problem is when you get to 43 and beyond, it puts the Germans in an impossible bind, since any unit that has to defend against a Soviet attack will need to be refit the next turn, but with any kind of sustained combat you either have to give up ahistorically large amounts of territory to get your men back to where they can refit or just leave them on the front until they totally collapse. The Soviet player is able to attack all over the front with a level of frequency that there is no real ability to be resting reserves in the rear.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 3
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/25/2011 6:59:42 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline 		I saw refit mode simply as being a way to prioritize reinforcements to particular areas which I think the High Command should be able to do at whim. I mean that's like basic command staff functionality - send 50% more men and supplies to this sector or that. Now I can't do that without pulling men out of the line, and as the German the ONLY units I have not adjacent to enemy are garrison units and it pretty much stays that way for ever. I don't have all these "spare" units - if I pull someone out of the line for refit the Soviets will just pour through. I don't know. I see this change as crippling to the German ability to direct the flow of replacements and it's not like the AAR forum is full of these "OMG teh Germans steamrolled us again" posts.

(in reply to hfarrish)
Post #: 4
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/25/2011 7:29:22 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		On the flip side to this it's easy for the SU player to put all of their units on Refit to attempt to raise their Morale (Experience) upto 50 by using Refit mode. This prevents them from doing this wholesale as the frontline units won't be getting the refit benefits like that anymore...........

_____________________________

WitE 2 Tester
WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester

(in reply to carnifex)
Post #: 5
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/25/2011 8:22:43 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		For the Soviet, there's huge abuse potential, one concrete example from my recent game:

Odessa wasn't attacked until turn 8. I had 3 rifle divisions holding Odessa, more than 15 hexes away from the actual front line (and their HQ). Place them all on Refit.

Turn 8 they're attacked, hold. They refit reasonable amounts - not exploitive really because they were supplied by sea, so it wasn't a huge replacement step.

Turn 9, I put them on refit. All 3 route. Front line is more than probably 10 hexes away, across the Dnepr toward the Crimea. Also on Turn 9, random Romanian cavalry cross the Dnepr.

My 3 infantry divisions on refit all route during the German turn to just north of the Crimea entrance-hex. On my turn, they are all rallied, at about 75% TOE, and can promptly cut off and isolate Romanian cav that on the German player turn was more than 10 hexes away.

As a Soviet player, I would put Unready units right next to German panzers just to make the panzers have to waste 3 MP. If I put the Infantry on Refit, often it would route, rally, and be stronger than it was at the start of the last turn.

The refit+route effect is a huge teleportation & resupply gimmick. I realize part of this post is a critique of routes (which I don't think we can effectively change without major play balance consequences for the Soviet in 41/German in 43-45).

Refit needed to be changed a little, but I agree with the German players that this has a stronger negative play-balance effect on them by virtue of the contact they MUST maintain with Soviet units.

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 6
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/25/2011 8:54:31 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline 		Not having played the Soviets as much I was not aware of how refit could be abused.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 7
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/25/2011 9:07:13 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Indeed. Refit Mode benefits the SU more than the Axis IMO due to the point mentioned above they can 'artificially' use it to increase the morale/EXP of their generally low valued Units. For the Axis the same benefit isn't there as their Units are generally at the top of the their game well above their National Morale level.

_____________________________

WitE 2 Tester
WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester

(in reply to carnifex)
Post #: 8
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 12:32:49 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		Per the manual there is nothing artificial about using refit to increase morale/EXP; in fact this recommended.

(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 9
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 1:22:34 AM   
DTurtle

 

Posts: 443
Joined: 4/26/2010
Status: offline 		Speedy was probably pointing at 9.1.1 in the manual:
quote:

The morale of a unit may also increase during the friendly
logistics phase due to any and all of the following circumstances:

The unit’s morale is below 50, and it is in refit mode.


(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 10
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 2:02:06 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Yes, training units via refit is recommended, but we felt it was overpowered in that it was more rightfully intended for units not on the front lines. Replacements should come to units not in refit mode, just slower. It will be useful to rotate units out of the line in order to quickly rebuild them and get the latest/greatest equipment. It is a major change that we think moves in the right direction.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to DTurtle)
Post #: 11
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 3:43:13 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		Joel,

Per the post above, "The refit+route effect is a huge teleportation & resupply gimmick."

Obviously this has to stop asap; solution: all routed units go to unready status which can't subsequently be changed during the same turn; thanks for considering this.

Marquo

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 12
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 4:16:06 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Joel,

Per the post above, "The refit+route effect is a huge teleportation & resupply gimmick."

Obviously this has to stop asap; solution: all routed units go to unready status which can't subsequently be changed during the same turn; thanks for considering this.

Marquo

Yeah, I was the OP of the first quote there, and I got to thinking about something:

Even the 1.04 version of Refit still allows my Odessa example to refit fully under the new rule, because after routing, you will be (you in fact WANT to be) behind friendly lines (you probably will be if it's not Turns 1-6) thus the refit still works.

As I said before, I don't think we can change the Route mechanics without seriously affecting game balance. But route+refit is still better than EITHER route or refit while in contact of the enemy. Thus, all the more reason to put Unready units at the front, set them to Refit, and wait for the German to kindly bounce them for you.


_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 13
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 4:27:56 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 14
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 6:36:18 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		According to the rules, routed units don't receive replacements, and the rally phase happens after the replacement phase. What am I missing here? If these rules are working, I don't see an exploit? Maybe they aren't working. Do you have saves for cases where a routed unit gets stronger (not just from damaged elements becoming ready, but from getting replacements and thus getting larger)?

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 15
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 7:34:50 AM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Per the manual there is nothing artificial about using refit to increase morale/EXP; in fact this recommended.


Of course but as Joel pointed out this rule creates a situation where wholesale abuse is stopped. Units on the Frontline shouldn't be able to receive the same benefits as rear-area units can do - more relaxed lifestyle, quarters, R&R, Training, 'creature comforts' etc

_____________________________

WitE 2 Tester
WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester

(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 16
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 1:36:59 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		Thank god my Romanian garrison units will still be 6 CV by spring of 1942! (I prefer to see the bright side in things)

< Message edited by PeeDeeAitch -- 4/26/2011 1:50:57 PM >

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 17
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 2:22:53 PM   
kevini1000

 

Posts: 430
Joined: 2/21/2010
Status: offline 		I don't understand this I was able to put my units in refit mode adjacent to Russian units.

Sath

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)
Post #: 18
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 2:34:03 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		While you can be in refit mode, the units do not gain the benefits if in contact with the enemy as far as I know.

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to kevini1000)
Post #: 19
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 2:34:10 PM   
Sabre21


Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sath

I don't understand this I was able to put my units in refit mode adjacent to Russian units.

Sath


You can still put the units in refit while adjacent to enemy controlled hexes, they just don't receive the benefits of being in refit.

_____________________________


(in reply to kevini1000)
Post #: 20
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 2:37:25 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		Score! I totally beat Sabre to the response. Chalk one up for Wyoming.

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to Sabre21)
Post #: 21
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 5:00:09 PM   
marty_01

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 2/10/2011
Status: offline 		I just learned something new about old versions of WiTE with this thread.

I had always assumed that refit in the old version only kicked in when a unit wasnt adjacent\in the ZOC of an enemy unit. Whenever I used the refit setting it was for units I had pulled out of the line for rest\whoring.

I think I like the new 1.04 version of refit. Seems more appropriate.

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)
Post #: 22
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 5:24:01 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Score! I totally beat Sabre to the response. Chalk one up for Wyoming.

He's snowed in today, and moving a bit slowly...

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)
Post #: 23
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 7:24:01 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
It will be interesting to see how this effects my '43 campaign vs Oleg. The Germans were already on shaky ground even while using the old refit rules.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 24
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/26/2011 10:48:35 PM   
fiva55


Posts: 376
Joined: 3/4/2011
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		Though without doubt a much better presentation of reality, the new refit rules makes life a lot harder for the germans post 41. I have noticed that it has become increasingly hard to refit unready units enough to let them go to ready status again. 




_____________________________

Providence Lost: A 42-45 GC
Making History I & II
Operation Blue: Completed
Red Storm Rising

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 25
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/27/2011 7:03:38 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		This change may help the Soviets later on, but will help the Axis earlier, with less Soviet units being able to refit.  Yes, the Axis units in in contact won't be able to refit but the Soviets in contact lose out on both replacements and the 1 point morale gain.

(in reply to fiva55)
Post #: 26
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/27/2011 7:56:48 AM   
Gewehr43

 

Posts: 64
Joined: 12/15/2006
Status: offline 		The Soviets are already too strong, this, and the new Uberpartisans, among other things still leave the game basically unplayable five months after release.

(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 27
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/27/2011 8:41:06 AM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		A lot of things have changed in 1.04 that will affect both sides. There is a lot of theorizing going on here, I think many of us are somewhat prone to getting up on the soapbox on purely theoretical grounds (including me occasionaly). I would say that the total impact of the changes in the 42 or 43 scenario is hard to gauge without actual playtesting. No doubt some of the changes will affect balance one way or the other, but in many cases maybe in unexpected ways and they may well cancel each other out.

I am somewhat sated on the 42 campaign after my latest 70-turn bout, and currently busy with two 41-GC, but it would be very interesting to see an AAR of a 42 or 43 GC using 1.04. Until then, I would say the jury is basically out.

(in reply to Gewehr43)
Post #: 28
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/27/2011 8:50:39 AM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gewehr43

The Soviets are already too strong, this, and the new Uberpartisans, among other things still leave the game basically unplayable five months after release.


That is a bit sweeping I would say. Sure, some things might need adjustment, but the game is eminently playable. I have played 100+ turns of PBEM both as Germans and Soviets, and I have had great fun!

(in reply to Gewehr43)
Post #: 29
RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/27/2011 3:30:40 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gewehr43

The Soviets are already too strong, this, and the new Uberpartisans, among other things still leave the game basically unplayable five months after release.


Why is it every post that asserts the game is unplayable is from a poster with less than 5 posts whose screen name lends itself to the notion that they are nazi sympathizers?

You guys don't need a game. You need a time machine.

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to Gewehr43)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.938