Slitherine

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i think the amount of partisan units generated by surrundered Sov units was yanked up quite too high by the 1.04 betas

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ORIGINAL: redmarkus4



I think the solution is actually to further abstract the whole thing.

Since we can't command the partisan units directly, let's just remove them from the map and have a basic requirement to garrison given locations (cities, rail lines every n hexes or regions). Then a random chance factor can cause a rail line break in n hexes each turn, modified by the proximity of in-supply regular Soviet units, to reflect corresponding increases in partisan activity.

Rail repair should then occur automatically, again based on a die roll, and without the need to move a whole FDB unit to the spot. Most repair would in any case have been carried out by the local civilian maintenance teams who ran the railway in peacetime.

Given that roads and bridges (!) are not represented as discrete game objects, the other desirable features of the logistic model are rendered irrelevant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I think the solution is actually to further abstract the whole thing.

Since we can't command the partisan units directly, let's just remove them from the map and have a basic requirement to garrison given locations (cities, rail lines every n hexes or regions). Then a random chance factor can cause a rail line break in n hexes each turn, modified by the proximity of in-supply regular Soviet units, to reflect corresponding increases in partisan activity.

Rail repair should then occur automatically, again based on a die roll, and without the need to move a whole FDB unit to the spot. Most repair would in any case have been carried out by the local civilian maintenance teams who ran the railway in peacetime.

Given that roads and bridges (!) are not represented as discrete game objects, the other desirable features of the logistic model are rendered irrelevant.

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ORIGINAL: James Ward

I agree, it should be abstracted. Maybe if garrisons were not maintained then the amount of suppy, replacements and rail capacity could be reduced by some percentage. This gives the Germans an incentive to maintian garrisions without creating a whole sub game of chasing partisan units and repairing rail lines.

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ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Turn 34 - Version 1.04.14

This is the first example I have seen of a really excessive partisan action - 13 rail hexes attacked by two partisan units in a single turn when all nearby cities are fully garrisoned.

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ORIGINAL: kswanson1


The detonator symbols near Toropez look they are occuring in the same hexes as German units. are those combat units?

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ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

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ORIGINAL: kswanson1


The detonator symbols near Toropez look they are occuring in the same hexes as German units. are those combat units?

My guess is that those are the construction battalions automatically assigned by HQs to do repair. They often will start the repairs on the just broken rails, and if the damage in the hex was low enough, have it fully repaired in the first part of the logistics phase. Of course, there are plenty of times where the autobots just don't get to the main line supplying a third of your army, your FBDs are beyond the cuts, it's mud and you're completely screwed for several turns...

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ORIGINAL: kswanson1

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ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

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ORIGINAL: kswanson1


The detonator symbols near Toropez look they are occuring in the same hexes as German units. are those combat units?

My guess is that those are the construction battalions automatically assigned by HQs to do repair. They often will start the repairs on the just broken rails, and if the damage in the hex was low enough, have it fully repaired in the first part of the logistics phase. Of course, there are plenty of times where the autobots just don't get to the main line supplying a third of your army, your FBDs are beyond the cuts, it's mud and you're completely screwed for several turns...

unfortunately -- and I know this from direct experiance of the partisan tsunami -- it still costs an FBD unit 3-MPs to repair Partisan breaks. That's even when the break damage is only 10% or whatever.

Has anyone tested to see if breaks are occuring within the ZOC of combat units?

Can we get battalion break downs for German infantry or something. Can we also get all those weirdo sub-regimental sized anti-partisan units the germans used during the war but that arent depicted in the game. This boo-boo needs some counter balancing. It's a game ruiner and unless your playing the Germans in PBEM right now you really dont get a sense for just how bad this makes the Germans supply situation.

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ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

A fix for the problem should be out later today or tomorrow.

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ORIGINAL: Wild

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ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

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ORIGINAL: kswanson1

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ORIGINAL: pompack

OTOH, the fact that you can only repair multiple breaks by going all the way back to the first remaining active rail hex is a killer. I can kind of see a rationale for not allowing conversion at the end of a broken link, but not allowing repair by FDBs makes things very difficult. With an FDB 20 hexes away from a break, we are talking either a month to get the FDB to the repair point or waiting for the repair robots to teleport back and decide to work on the breaks instead of converting along the Estonian coast five hundred miles from the front or digging trenches at the front that can't be held because everyone is out of supply.

The only way I see to combat this is to hold an FDB back at Warsaw ready to move forward to repair a break. And hope that the next turn it isn't cut off by a new break.

Agreed. You have hit one of the issues right on the head. And this issue and its implications doesnt become apparent until you are actually faced with it in game. Allow repair to occur from both sides of the break. It's not like there wouldn't be locomotives and rolling stock available on both sides of a break that could rapidly transport rail road repair crews, their equipment and construction materials to the break points.

I'm facing the same issue in two of my PBEMs and am seriously considering resigning. I don't want to as I have invested a huge amount of time into both games. I also dont want to leave my opponents hanging. hmmm...

I think the solution is actually to further abstract the whole thing.

Since we can't command the partisan units directly, let's just remove them from the map and have a basic requirement to garrison given locations (cities, rail lines every n hexes or regions). Then a random chance factor can cause a rail line break in n hexes each turn, modified by the proximity of in-supply regular Soviet units, to reflect corresponding increases in partisan activity.

Rail repair should then occur automatically, again based on a die roll, and without the need to move a whole FDB unit to the spot. Most repair would in any case have been carried out by the local civilian maintenance teams who ran the railway in peacetime.

Given that roads and bridges (!) are not represented as discrete game objects, the other desirable features of the logistic model are rendered irrelevant.

I am tempted to agree with Redmarkus on this.

Being a supporter of historicity in the game it is not easy, but what he say's makes sense.

After all, who wants to spend the game chasing partisans around, and a break in your main rail line completely takes the focus off your offensive to something i'm sure most people are not interested in (chasing partisans and restoring supply).

I can see this turning off many people and being a detriment to the game overall as people will get frustrated and quit playing.
Which will hurt sales of the planned upcoming War in the West and War in North Afrika. Thereby putting in danger of my dream game War in Europe.

I am coming to the conclusion that we must have some abstraction to keep the game fun, for the good of the overall planned project.

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ORIGINAL: kswanson1

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Turn 34 - Version 1.04.14

This is the first example I have seen of a really excessive partisan action - 13 rail hexes attacked by two partisan units in a single turn when all nearby cities are fully garrisoned.

OUCH! That's just a bit over the top. I love how the rail attacks follow right behind the FBD unit.

The detonator symbols near Toropez look they are occuring in the same hexes as German units. are those combat units?

After seeing that image, yeah I think I'd vote for Partisan Abstraction. That's five turns worth of repair for the FBD. Picture that same result 20 or 30-hexes away from the nearest FBD. Now your talking an entire section of the front being isolated for a month and a half while the FBD marches back to the breaks and than starts slowly repairing the tracks.

On a completely different not, I Love the minor city names thingie your using. Where can I find that?

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ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

That's my mod ;) now taken over by BCGames (forum member) and it can be downloaded here: http://witewiki.com/index.php/Download_Mod

You may want to wait a while as BC is going to fix some errors and possibly add Captain B's town sizes layer, so the mod will take some big steps forward and it is a big download which you'll have to repeat.

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ORIGINAL: pompack

I have found that breaks occur adjacent to combat units. While I have found breaks that occur in a hex occupied by a HQ, I have not seen a break in the hex occupied by a combat unit. I have never seen a partisan in the ZOC of a combat unit but I have seen them adjacent to HQ units. All in 1.04

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ORIGINAL: kswanson1

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ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

That's my mod ;) now taken over by BCGames (forum member) and it can be downloaded here: http://witewiki.com/index.php/Download_Mod

You may want to wait a while as BC is going to fix some errors and possibly add Captain B's town sizes layer, so the mod will take some big steps forward and it is a big download which you'll have to repeat.

You're very talented. Thanks for the tip.

I saw bcgames is also working on a Korsun Pocket scenario for WITE. It looks like it will be a great addition to the current scenario list. Smaller and shorter than the host of 1941 "Road To" scenarios. It should give players a taste of late war WITE without having to dedicate the amount of time required to crank through a GC. I'd like to see more of these sorts of smaller scenarios. Maybe if my interest stays fixed on this game for a while and I dont meander back to my HPS PBEMs, I'll give the WITE editor a go.

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ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Check the latest beta patch - it's supposed to fix the partisan issues. Members downloads...

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ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Thanks. Good - we need more scenarios like that.

What HPS titles do you have? I own Chancellorsville, Gettysburg, Waterloo and PC Smolensk '41 (but I could never get into that last one). I'll play you PBEM, if you like.

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ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Ah... HPS WW2 games have not really grabbed my attention. Somehow, I find the HPS approach better suited to Napoleonics and the Civil War...

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ORIGINAL: kswanson1

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ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Check the latest beta patch - it's supposed to fix the partisan issues. Members downloads...

It probably reduces the numbers of Partisans that get activated. But I doubt it addresses the logistics of keeping rail lines open. Thats what I keep harping on with my lengthy postings. There are a number of logical disconnects in rail repair that will continue to create the same issues for the Germans even after Partisan head counts are reduced.

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ORIGINAL: Marquo

Pavel,

Whatever you do, please remember that at the beginning of Bagration, June 1944 the partisans destroyed over 1,000 transportation modes and paralyzed AGS.

Marquo