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RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/3/2011 11:20:09 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 2236
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
If they so distrust the world's oldest functioning democracy,


That was 70 to 65 years ago. Different time, different circumstances. You might put the word functioning into parenthesis.

EDIT: Nitpicking here, but Switzerland was before you...

< Message edited by Telumar -- 5/3/2011 11:21:25 PM >

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(in reply to Wirraway_Ace)
Post #: 121
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/3/2011 11:52:23 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
If they so distrust the world's oldest functioning democracy,


That was 70 to 65 years ago. Different time, different circumstances. You might put the word functioning into parenthesis.

EDIT: Nitpicking here, but Switzerland was before you...

I am led to believe the current Swiss constitution is barely 10 years old; even stretching the definition of existing form of government only takes the Swiss back to the middle 1800's. The current form of the US government dates from the late 1700's. It is, I believe, the oldest existing defined (e.g. a specific constitution) form of government in any country--and has issues related to that age that are well understood within the US and outside it.

I often refer to the Economist Intelligence Unit Democracy Index (as opposed to my own semi-informed opinion) when chosing how to describe a democracy. In its latest ratings, the US remains a "Full Democracy".

The form and function of the US Government is essentially the same now as in 1941. In fact, the flexibility of the President to send troops into combat has been slightly curtailed by the War Powers Resolution of 1973.

The war in Europe and the events of Dec 7th, 1941 are largly the circumstances that led to the US changing from isolationism to major international player.

Bottom line: I still don't get where you are coming from in terms of a forum dedicated to the Pacific War....


(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 122
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/3/2011 11:55:53 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Wirraway Ace,
Aye, I wasn't surprised it degenerated. These things always do. The pity is that when the two extremes pitch in the moderate people on either side ( supporting the US but not unquestioningly and questioning it legitimately sometiems ) lose out to the extremists on both sides and no rational discussion is possible.

Hence my Chuck Norris post. If we're going to be ludicrous we might as well be completely ludicrous and, hopefully, remind people not to feed the trolls --- although it probably WAS Chuck Norris

America is far from perfect but neither is it a demon. Just like everything else it has good and bad. The problem is that when moderates on both sides try to point this out either the "US is Satan" crowd or the "America Roolz, if you post anything negative I'll attack you" crowd pile in and destroy reasonable discussion. It is what it is. The internet isn't really a place for reasonable discussion as there are no significant barriers to entry or curbs on behaviour. Hell, even on this forum which was moderated fairly well it has recently, since jwilkerson left and we no longer have a moderator ) become possible to call a whole bunch of people brainless, unwashed, unlaid lieing weasels and get away with it so we're screwed in terms of long-term debate. The extremes will gain traction and the middle will lose out, as it always does.


Nemo, I liked the Chuck Norris post...


(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 123
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 12:05:49 AM   
Telumar


Posts: 2236
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
If they so distrust the world's oldest functioning democracy,


That was 70 to 65 years ago. Different time, different circumstances. You might put the word functioning into parenthesis.

EDIT: Nitpicking here, but Switzerland was before you...

I am led to believe the current Swiss constitution is barely 10 years old; even stretching the definition of existing form of government only takes the Swiss back to the middle 1800's. The current form of the US government dates from the late 1700's. It is, I believe, the oldest existing defined (e.g. a specific constitution) form of government in any country--and has issues related to that age that are well understood within the US and outside it.

I often refer to the Economist Intelligence Unit Democracy Index (as opposed to my own semi-informed opinion) when chosing how to describe a democracy. In its latest ratings, the US remains a "Full Democracy".

The form and function of the US Government is essentially the same now as in 1941. In fact, the flexibility of the President to send troops into combat has been slightly curtailed by the War Powers Resolution of 1973.

The war in Europe and the events of Dec 7th, 1941 are largly the circumstances that led to the US changing from isolationism to major international player.

Bottom line: I still don't get where you are coming from in terms of a forum dedicated to the Pacific War....




RE: your bottom line... Finally someone asks, i already have wondered why it took so long. I don't know ..i only realized that it was the PacW forum and not the General Discussion forum after i felt provoced enough by all the hooray patriotism to post.. You may come over to the TOAW forum anytime ..

Re your other writings, you sure may be right and i am not anti-american at all and have deep respect for your country's democratic tradition. It's just that i think that your once so proud democracy got corrupted and hijacked. It's blatant. I'm sure i am not alone in this.

English Wikipedia article about swiss history is an interesting read btw.

"In the 16th century, the Old Swiss Confederacy was composed of thirteen sovereign cantons, and there were two different kinds: six land (or forest) cantons and seven city (or urban) cantons. Though they were technically part of the Holy Roman Empire, they had become de facto independent when the Swiss defeated Emperor Maximillian in 1499.[3] The six forest cantons were democratic republics, whereas the seven urban cantons were oligarchic republics controlled by noble families."

Of course they had not that written form of a constitution as the US gave themselves in 1776, but still..

< Message edited by Telumar -- 5/4/2011 12:17:02 AM >

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Post #: 124
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 12:32:47 AM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		To recap the most salient points so far:

P.s. Nice last post Wirraway, petard, hoist by, own. Those are words which come to mind






Attachment (1)

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Well, that's that settled then.

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Post #: 125
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 1:09:16 AM   
redcoat


Posts: 1035
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
If they so distrust the world's oldest functioning democracy,


That was 70 to 65 years ago. Different time, different circumstances. You might put the word functioning into parenthesis.

EDIT: Nitpicking here, but Switzerland was before you...


"The history of your institution, of your Parliament, still today influences most of our contemporary political regimes. Your Parliament has become what it is through the protection of individual freedoms – it’s a lesson that you, the British, have given the world. This Parliament, yours, was the first in the world to achieve the results of parliamentary democracy which make you what you are, and you represent the cornerstone of all our democracies."

President Sarkozy of France addressing the British Parliament in 2008.

I think there are several places with a claim to being the world's oldest functioning democracy.

_____________________________

“‘Who controls the past,’ ran the Party slogan, ‘controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.’”

George Orwell, 1984

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 126
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 2:39:05 AM   
TOMLABEL


Posts: 5116
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Alabama - ROLL TIDE!!!!!
Status: offline 		Nevermind...............


< Message edited by TOMLABEL -- 5/4/2011 3:27:38 AM >

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(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 127
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 2:49:23 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Interesting posts from Wirraway and Nemo. Thanks, gents.

As historian Stephen Ambrose noted, in World War II the Americans (and most of the Allies) came as liberators rather than conquerors. The treatment of the conquered Axis powers speaks volumes. Not only that, but the German people and army largely fled towards the Americans and away from the Russians. That, too, speaks volumes.

And yet, war is a nasty business with lots of bad things going on. I recall several instances noted by Ambrose in which American troops shot down surrendering Germans, and of course there is the debate over the bombing of largely civilian targets, etc. That doesn't change the fact of who was the good guys, but just proves that even the good guys make mistakes in war or may have to do things that will be brutal.

By the way, Nemo, I find only one flaw with your logic. In offering Chuck Norris, you just have the wrong Chuck. Anybody remember Chuck Connors? If not, go to You Tube and look at the opening of The Rifleman television show from the '50s or '60s. He was TOUGH!

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 5/4/2011 2:51:52 AM >

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Post #: 128
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 2:51:29 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
If they so distrust the world's oldest functioning democracy,


That was 70 to 65 years ago. Different time, different circumstances. You might put the word functioning into parenthesis.

EDIT: Nitpicking here, but Switzerland was before you...


"The history of your institution, of your Parliament, still today influences most of our contemporary political regimes. Your Parliament has become what it is through the protection of individual freedoms – it’s a lesson that you, the British, have given the world. This Parliament, yours, was the first in the world to achieve the results of parliamentary democracy which make you what you are, and you represent the cornerstone of all our democracies."

President Sarkozy of France addressing the British Parliament in 2008.

I think there are several places with a claim to being the world's oldest functioning democracy.


Well there is the salient fact that while we were fighting you to establish our democracy, your king was still pretty much in charge. Constitutional monarchy is what I would give you full credit to being the first to establish. But it was still in most points a fully functional monarchy.

And let me add that I personally think a constitutional monarchy is a very good form of government. It has some definite advantages over a republic such as ours in some critical areas. So let it not be said I'm disparaging your form of government at the time.



< Message edited by Mynok -- 5/4/2011 2:55:15 AM >

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Post #: 129
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 3:20:45 AM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Of course they had not that written form of a constitution as the US gave themselves in 1776, but still..


I am not surprised you cite 1776, but the current form of the US Democracy dates from 1787. The much less well known Articles of Confederation were the first attempt to define the governmental system following the defeat (with critical French help) of the British.

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 130
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 3:33:44 AM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat

I think there are several places with a claim to being the world's oldest functioning democracy.


More than several I suspect. However, this issue is generally one of definition. The US is pretty clearly the oldest form of democracy (and government for that matter) in its current form--its form dating to the current constitution written and adopted in 1787.

Its democratic institutions are, in isolation, not the oldest. But I suspect there are many Greeks who would take issue with President Sarkozy's view of Parliament as the cornerstone (that stone which is first layed in a foundation) of all our democracies...

(in reply to redcoat)
Post #: 131
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 3:36:31 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		I'm thankful the USA is NOT a democracy.....It's a republic, organized upon democratic principals.

There are many countries that can make good , legitimate claims of democratic government. For instance the Icelandic Althing (kind of a scandanavian town meeting) dates back to the mid 900's. We shouldn't see it as a competition, but as a celebration. And a hope for those people who do not yet have some form of democracy.

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Post #: 132
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 3:41:03 AM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I'm thankful the USA is NOT a democracy.....It's a republic, organized upon democratic principals.

There are many countries that can make good , legitimate claims of democratic government. For instance the Icelandic Althing (kind of a scandanavian town meeting) dates back to the mid 900's. We shouldn't see it as a competition, but as a celebration. And a hope for those people who do not yet have some form of democracy.


True enough, at the Federal level; although some state and local governments more closly resemble a true democracy.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 133
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 3:55:55 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I'm thankful the USA is NOT a democracy.....It's a republic, organized upon democratic principals.

There are many countries that can make good , legitimate claims of democratic government. For instance the Icelandic Althing (kind of a scandanavian town meeting) dates back to the mid 900's. We shouldn't see it as a competition, but as a celebration. And a hope for those people who do not yet have some form of democracy.


True enough, at the Federal level; although some state and local governments more closly resemble a true democracy.



Tell me about it! I grew up in a small town in Maine, and yes we had REAL New England Town meetings. And since my family was very active in local politics, I seldom missed one! Good lord , what a free for all that could be! On the other hand, I can seldom recall one that wasn't entertaining!

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Post #: 134
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 4:14:06 AM   
redcoat


Posts: 1035
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

There are many countries that can make good , legitimate claims of democratic government. For instance the Icelandic Althing (kind of a scandanavian town meeting) dates back to the mid 900's. We shouldn't see it as a competition, but as a celebration. And a hope for those people who do not yet have some form of democracy.


+1


_____________________________

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(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 135
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 4:23:37 AM   
redcoat


Posts: 1035
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
If they so distrust the world's oldest functioning democracy,


That was 70 to 65 years ago. Different time, different circumstances. You might put the word functioning into parenthesis.

EDIT: Nitpicking here, but Switzerland was before you...


"The history of your institution, of your Parliament, still today influences most of our contemporary political regimes. Your Parliament has become what it is through the protection of individual freedoms – it’s a lesson that you, the British, have given the world. This Parliament, yours, was the first in the world to achieve the results of parliamentary democracy which make you what you are, and you represent the cornerstone of all our democracies."

President Sarkozy of France addressing the British Parliament in 2008.

I think there are several places with a claim to being the world's oldest functioning democracy.


Well there is the salient fact that while we were fighting you to establish our democracy, your king was still pretty much in charge. Constitutional monarchy is what I would give you full credit to being the first to establish. But it was still in most points a fully functional monarchy.

And let me add that I personally think a constitutional monarchy is a very good form of government. It has some definite advantages over a republic such as ours in some critical areas. So let it not be said I'm disparaging your form of government at the time.




I think we will have to disagree over the facts. I believe that Parliament was the dominant force in British politics before the American War of Independence. Anyway – lets not get sidetracked by an old unfortunate disagreement. Our two countries have different democratic systems of Government, but we have a great deal in common when it comes to values. I certainly did not mean to cause offence by making my light-hearted remark about who had the oldest functioning (i.e. continious) democratic institution.


_____________________________

“‘Who controls the past,’ ran the Party slogan, ‘controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.’”

George Orwell, 1984

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 136
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 4:40:27 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Of course, there are times when I am sure that many of us question the idea that our nation, or any nation, is functioning at all!

< Message edited by bradfordkay -- 5/4/2011 4:42:41 AM >

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fair winds,
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Post #: 137
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 4:50:30 AM   
LST Express


Posts: 571
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I think the American people as a whole are still a damn decent people. At least that's been my experience. 

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Post #: 138
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 9:43:52 AM   
henhute6

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Tehran
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Regardless whether your prophecies of 'hoax' are correct (I believe otherwise), one has to admire the skill, audacity and planning of the operators that carried out the raid. First class professionalism all the way.


Yeah, nice operation. Gardener shot down one helicopter and special troops managed to kill unarmed Bin Laden.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 139
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 10:14:25 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		You really think your previous display of lacking situational awareness and blockhead
misinterpretation of symbolic milestones in global politics was not sufficient up
to now, so you feel the need to continue?

Or are you just trying to play baby badass?

I suggest you let this discussion die down and get over it, except in case your goal is
to increasse the percentage of senseless posts relative to your post count total.

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Post #: 140
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 10:33:32 AM   
Dixie


Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: henhute6


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Regardless whether your prophecies of 'hoax' are correct (I believe otherwise), one has to admire the skill, audacity and planning of the operators that carried out the raid. First class professionalism all the way.


Yeah, nice operation. Gardener shot down one helicopter and special troops managed to kill unarmed Bin Laden.



You're right. Because only some sort of US fanboy would shoot an unarmed terrorist wouldn't they. And lets face it, spec-ops missions must be really easy, just fly in, shoot an old man and fly away again. No need to plan or anything, because we all knew that he'd be hiding under the bed without any body guards or weapons didn't we? Just those silly Americans who, for some reason, thought he might be armed and a little bit reluctant to come with them.



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Bigger boys stole my sig

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Post #: 141
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 10:37:41 AM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3611
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: henhute6



Yeah, nice operation. Gardener shot down one helicopter and special troops managed to kill unarmed Bin Laden.




You're just now trying to rile people up. Very poor trolling attempt. I suggest you visit the World of Warcraft forums for a few months and when you get some trolling experience under your belt come back here and play with the big boys. Until then....Go away kid, you bother me!

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Post #: 142
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 11:43:00 AM   
henhute6

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Tehran
Status: offline 		There shouldn't even be this kind of topic here and starter should be banned. I really hope people ruin this thread by trolling. 

(in reply to ilovestrategy)
Post #: 143
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 12:02:05 PM   
henhute6

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Tehran
Status: offline 		At least we are all happy. I think even Bin Laden is happy. He managed to get USA to invade Iraq and Afganistan. He managed to get GW Bush to ruin US economy. I think his work was done and now he can rest. In fact may be that Osama prevented US ability to start future wars due to poor economy. In that case Bin Laden should be avarded nobel peace prize.

I'm just little bit sad that 900 000 civilians died in Iraq.

< Message edited by henhute6 -- 5/4/2011 12:20:01 PM >

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Post #: 144
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 12:05:32 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 2236
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline 		Not to mention long term effect of depleted uranium ammunition.

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Post #: 145
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 12:14:03 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: henhute6

There shouldn't even be this kind of topic here and starter should be banned. I really hope people ruin this thread by trolling.



Excuse me?!?!

Are you serious?

I have started the topic in order to convey an important information of general interest.

This has been done before on this forum many times (believe me - look when I joined here) and I see nothing wrong with that.

I have not intended and I am not responsible that this threat has degenerated into a flame war.

Personally I think you are the one who is ruining this threat by trolling.

Congrats - only the second time in over 10 years I use the green button...


< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 5/4/2011 12:15:48 PM >

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Post #: 146
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 12:17:35 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

quote:

ORIGINAL: henhute6

There shouldn't even be this kind of topic here and starter should be banned. I really hope people ruin this thread by trolling.



Excuse me?!?!

Are you serious?


No, hes just an idiot troll, don´t bother.

_____________________________


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Post #: 147
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 12:22:36 PM   
henhute6

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Tehran
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Excuse me?!?!

Are you serious?

I have started the topic in order to convey an important information of general interest.



It's important news, but we have read it from somewhere else first. There are also other forums to discuss it. In this forum I'm only interested of the game itself. This is the only off topic thread I see here.

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 148
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 12:27:37 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie


quote:

ORIGINAL: henhute6


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Regardless whether your prophecies of 'hoax' are correct (I believe otherwise), one has to admire the skill, audacity and planning of the operators that carried out the raid. First class professionalism all the way.


Yeah, nice operation. Gardener shot down one helicopter and special troops managed to kill unarmed Bin Laden.



You're right. Because only some sort of US fanboy would shoot an unarmed terrorist wouldn't they. And lets face it, spec-ops missions must be really easy, just fly in, shoot an old man and fly away again. No need to plan or anything, because we all knew that he'd be hiding under the bed without any body guards or weapons didn't we? Just those silly Americans who, for some reason, thought he might be armed and a little bit reluctant to come with them.




Dixie, I think you just made Steve's list, too!

_____________________________

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 149
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/4/2011 12:28:11 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		LST don't bother. This is clear-cut trolling - he's just yanking everyone's chain. Bringing in the Iraqi civilians comment? How obvious......

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Post #: 150
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