RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A)

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/3/2011 7:23:52 PM

rader

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Yes, I hid the KB very well in my other game. But then you don't get much use out of it either. If you leave it in a mutually supporting and defensible position with some big air bases where he can't get at it surface TFs, you can make a position almost unaprochable. I would decribe this as the "KB fortress" method. Bad for intel, but man is it potent for stoppping an enemy (in one place only).

(in reply to pauk)

Post #: 61

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/3/2011 7:35:53 PM

pauk

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"KB fortress" is, unfortunatly, the only way of being alive. Unless you know where Allied DS is, then KB can make some nice trips :D

Anyway, dont get discouraged.... you can make some serious hits while Allies are in euphoria mode.

Im not familiar how the kamis works in AE, (in witp were next to useless unless Jap players didnt use gamey tactic - seting them to max altitudes).. but could they help?!

< Message edited by pauk -- 12/3/2011 7:37:57 PM >

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Post #: 62

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/3/2011 8:09:04 PM

JohnDillworth

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Rader,
thanks for starting updates again. As you can tell by the number of posts GJ has quite a following, myself included. It's clear you are not having any trouble producing aircraft, and have even accelerated a couple of good ones. I am curious as to the quality of your pilots. Your losses have been horrific. How is your IJN and IJA pilot quality? Has your training program held up? Do you think you will continue to keep the quality at a decent level?

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Post #: 63

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/3/2011 8:22:04 PM

rader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Rader,
thanks for starting updates again. As you can tell by the number of posts GJ has quite a following, myself included. It's clear you are not having any trouble producing aircraft, and have even accelerated a couple of good ones. I am curious as to the quality of your pilots. Your losses have been horrific. How is your IJN and IJA pilot quality? Has your training program held up? Do you think you will continue to keep the quality at a decent level?

It's not hard to train a pilot up to 60 skill, 50 def, so that's about what I do. I have pretty much no problem keeping up at this skill level provided I don't go too crazy (believe me, I have shown a lot of restraint, despite throwing away planes in droves - and almost all of that is to preserve pilots, not planes.

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Post #: 64

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/3/2011 9:44:44 PM

obvert

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It seems with some level 10 bases mutually supporting, you could occasionally throw up 800-1,000 fighters in an area. Even the best Allied fighters sweeping would have trouble hitting that many planes. And as he will start losing a lot of his pilots the quality will be sure to go down at some point.

Should be fun to watch!

(in reply to rader)

Post #: 65

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/3/2011 9:50:55 PM

rader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

It seems with some level 10 bases mutually supporting, you could occasionally throw up 800-1,000 fighters in an area. Even the best Allied fighters sweeping would have trouble hitting that many planes. And as he will start losing a lot of his pilots the quality will be sure to go down at some point.

Should be fun to watch!

That's what I'm thinking (hoping).

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 66

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/3/2011 9:56:36 PM

FatR

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rader
It's not hard to train a pilot up to 60 skill, 50 def, so that's about what I do. I have pretty much no problem keeping up at this skill level provided I don't go too crazy (believe me, I have shown a lot of restraint, despite throwing away planes in droves - and almost all of that is to preserve pilots, not planes.

No problem with the replacement pool of green pilots size so far? Under current beta one can't draw pilots directly from the training program, and currently I train pilots (to skill 70 def 50+) faster than a scen 1-sized training program delivers replacements for IJAAF.

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Post #: 67

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/4/2011 2:15:57 AM

Schlemiel

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I will say I am most impressed with your economic prowess in this game, Rader. Japanese production is a lot to take in (for me at least) and you seem to have it extremely streamlined. Since you're in a rather unique situation I do have a bit of an economic question for you. Were you able to ship resources/fuel up the Rangoon road at all as the Japanese (who rarely hold the entire thing so effectively). If, say, GJ had somehow pulled off the invasion of the Phillipines instead and direct shipping from the dei was limited by that, would you have been able to keep your economy running decently through your multiple overland routes, do you think (like drop fuel/resources on the Thailand rail and in Rangoon)? I don't know enough about Japanese production or whatever rules might apply to a Japanese controlled Rangoon Road, but the possibility intrigued me at the time given your Chinese holdings and the security of that sector from casual raids.

Any chance we could have sort of a round table discussion thread with you and GJ after this game ends where we can ask questions to both of you about certain moments in the game? This game has had so many interesting moments and your perspective on things would be really fascinating to a lot of people, I'm sure.

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Post #: 68

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/4/2011 4:00:09 AM

crsutton

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Rader, I am reading GJs AAR have have commented there extensively, so won't comment here. But please keep updating this AAR for us to read. It will be interesting to read you thoughts and evaluations of the game and your opinions on playing the Japanese side. So, I will read here but not comment and will not offer any comments to GJ about your thread. This has been a great game and one of the few that I have followed from day one. Thanks.

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Post #: 69

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/4/2011 4:35:02 AM

rader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schlemiel

I will say I am most impressed with your economic prowess in this game, Rader. Japanese production is a lot to take in (for me at least) and you seem to have it extremely streamlined. Since you're in a rather unique situation I do have a bit of an economic question for you. Were you able to ship resources/fuel up the Rangoon road at all as the Japanese (who rarely hold the entire thing so effectively). If, say, GJ had somehow pulled off the invasion of the Phillipines instead and direct shipping from the dei was limited by that, would you have been able to keep your economy running decently through your multiple overland routes, do you think (like drop fuel/resources on the Thailand rail and in Rangoon)? I don't know enough about Japanese production or whatever rules might apply to a Japanese controlled Rangoon Road, but the possibility intrigued me at the time given your Chinese holdings and the security of that sector from casual raids.

Any chance we could have sort of a round table discussion thread with you and GJ after this game ends where we can ask questions to both of you about certain moments in the game? This game has had so many interesting moments and your perspective on things would be really fascinating to a lot of people, I'm sure.

Are you talking about movement of oil/resources to Manchuria through Indochina/China, or between India/Burma? I actually don't know - I never observed a lot of this kind of movement, and it hasn't figured into my planning, but it might be happening without me noticing...

Yes, of course a round table would be great!

(in reply to Schlemiel)

Post #: 70

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/4/2011 4:37:22 AM

rader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Rader, I am reading GJs AAR have have commented there extensively, so won't comment here. But please keep updating this AAR for us to read. It will be interesting to read you thoughts and evaluations of the game and your opinions on playing the Japanese side. So, I will read here but not comment and will not offer any comments to GJ about your thread. This has been a great game and one of the few that I have followed from day one. Thanks.

I'll definitely try to post an update every now and then, but I don't have a whole lot of free time (RL and 2 intense games). But feel free to ask questions and I'll try to post anything especially interesting in addition to the occasional situation update.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/4/2011 4:44:34 AM

rader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schlemiel

I will say I am most impressed with your economic prowess in this game, Rader. Japanese production is a lot to take in (for me at least) and you seem to have it extremely streamlined. Since you're in a rather unique situation I do have a bit of an economic question for you. Were you able to ship resources/fuel up the Rangoon road at all as the Japanese (who rarely hold the entire thing so effectively). If, say, GJ had somehow pulled off the invasion of the Phillipines instead and direct shipping from the dei was limited by that, would you have been able to keep your economy running decently through your multiple overland routes, do you think (like drop fuel/resources on the Thailand rail and in Rangoon)? I don't know enough about Japanese production or whatever rules might apply to a Japanese controlled Rangoon Road, but the possibility intrigued me at the time given your Chinese holdings and the security of that sector from casual raids.

Any chance we could have sort of a round table discussion thread with you and GJ after this game ends where we can ask questions to both of you about certain moments in the game? This game has had so many interesting moments and your perspective on things would be really fascinating to a lot of people, I'm sure.

Japanese economics is my favourite part of the game by far. That's what makes the game for me. In fact, it's the main reason why I probably wouldn't find the allied side so interesting. I like the allied toys, but I want to be able to micromanage the production of them. I supect giving allies that kind of power wold probably break the game though. "I want to produce only P-47s and B-29s."

In fact, I pretty much pre-planned the entire Japanese economy before starting the game. I had the target engine/shipyard/factory numbers decided at the start of the game, as well as which ships to accelerate/halt when etc., and based on heavy industry production assumptions. It was based on experience I'd gained in the Jzanes game, which was very educational. I was hesitant about playing Greyjoy because it was his first game and wasn't sure it was right to pull this kind of planning on a newbie, but we talked a lot before, and I could tell he was a very bright fellow and quick learner. He insisted that he wanted to play with an experienced player to learn faster. Boy, did he ever do that

I feel like obiwan Kenobi meeting Darth Vader on the Death Star.

< Message edited by rader -- 12/4/2011 4:51:18 AM >

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/4/2011 9:03:20 PM

Schlemiel

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He definitely learned faster too though. You've kind of created a monster here in GreyJoy, Rader :) He had to learn the game (both mechanically and strategically) to a deep degree just to survive. I'd personally love to learn to play as Japan, as I do think the production would be a really interesting thing, but you have to start out so fast to have any slim chance. The allies have the double "luxury" of starting with little (so you learn what you have fairly fast) and getting steady reinforcements. You can start as the allies and learn on the job reasonably well. Japan needs a fairly solid strategic vision and a good knowledge of its assets at the word go to be remotely successful, I believe. That's kind of what happened this game, I think. Grey got battered so badly, but he could afford the lessons and kept his CVs intact and took advantage of that short, short axis of advance up north. Great game though for us spectators :)

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Post #: 73

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/4/2011 9:49:35 PM

JohnDillworth

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I understand you would be happy if you never saw another PT boat, but what aircraft have given you the most trouble? Clearly the B-17's have been a problem, what else?

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/4/2011 9:56:59 PM

rader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

I understand you would be happy if you never saw another PT boat, but what aircraft have given you the most trouble?� Clearly the B-17's have been a problem, what else?

P-47s are killers. And any 4Es are devastating. The corsairs have been seeming pretty good lateyl. And Hellcats are way better than what I have except for the very best (i.e., Franks).

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/5/2011 3:31:05 AM

rader

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He's wearing down the defenders outside Hakkodate relentlessly. Soon he will control the entire island of Hokkaido.

Quite a bit of action in the air today. It is about the best we can expect at this point vs. P-47s: around 3:2 losses in the allies favour. We took down some bombers, but not enough to put a serious dent in his force. The best part was when we got to kill some stragglers. The bombers that came in with the mian package got off almost scott free.

It's really strange actually. I'm not sure why, but all the "time to targets" are listed as around 5 minutes!! I think this is why the air to air combats weren't very bloody. I guess this is because there was no radar in the hex? We actually did set LRCAP over the hex, which I though would help a lot. But this just hammers in the point that radar is really critical to a successful air defense.

Also, we're starting to get ramming attacks on bombers, but it is actually pretty annoying because my pilots are throwing their lives away to get mere damages on enemy bombers. And these ar even B-25s... 2 rams, neither destroyed.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by rader -- 12/5/2011 3:42:19 AM >

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/5/2011 1:47:00 PM

Miller

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Ramming attacks were a big problem in my previous game. I was seeing 10 fighters a day ramming B25s and maybe destroying 2 or 3 at most whilst I lost all the planes and pilots in return. I mentioned it and the attacks were toned down but they are still a bit out of whack (IMO)......

Here is a link to my thread about it: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2469825

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/5/2011 10:34:02 PM

crsutton

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Actually, I do have a question. Was there any economic benefit in taking all of India's industry or considering your finite supply of oil, was it more industry than you could use?

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/6/2011 2:28:07 AM

rader

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Yes, you have enough extra oil to run the indian industry. And actually, india comes with about 150 oil anyway.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/6/2011 4:45:51 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Ramming attacks were a big problem in my previous game. I was seeing 10 fighters a day ramming B25s and maybe destroying 2 or 3 at most whilst I lost all the planes and pilots in return. I mentioned it and the attacks were toned down but they are still a bit out of whack (IMO)......

Here is a link to my thread about it: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2469825

I saw similar results in my recent Downfall play. I've seen +20 fighters in a single engagement ram and only down a couple of 4E's. If it was 1:1, might not be so bad ... but 10:1 in 4E's favor makes it really difficult to take.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/8/2011 4:36:14 AM

rader

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It's now May 11, 1944 and he's just consolidated his control of Hokkaido. Now we'll see what his next move is. Also some minor skirmishing in New Guinea near Lae.

India is mysteriously quiet. I wonder if he might be bringing his india troops around the worl to bring them to Hokkaido?

We're fortifying the Bonins (already fortified), Ryukus, Philippines, and Formosa. I wonder if his next push could be a jump right across to cut Japan off from the South? If I were him, I would go for something like that. Although he might decide to go straight for the jugular by invading Honshu... I've got more than 5000 AV in reserve just in case he decides to go for this.

In the long run, it is going to come down to a contest of the armies. With all of Hokkaido, he can pretty much land in Honshu at will. If you put all the allie land forces in a ring with all the Japanese land forces, who would win??

Luckily I get some pretty major reinforcements through 1944 and 1945, with soemthing like 50+ division to come...

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/8/2011 8:17:51 AM

PaxMondo

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Watch out ... those are VERY low exp division (mostly). Your best troops are overseas and you need to get them back. Any chance to retake Hokkaido?

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/8/2011 10:24:55 AM

String

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You have been quite successful with your japanese subs, if you don't mind me asking, how are you using them when hunting enemy surface ships? Do you set them patrol zones, or do you use simple one hex patrols? Or something completely different?

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/8/2011 4:30:04 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Watch out ... those are VERY low exp division (mostly).� Your best troops are overseas and you need to get them back.� Any chance to retake Hokkaido?

And will your industry be healthy enough to equip them? Divisions without devices are paper tigers.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/8/2011 4:42:03 PM

veji1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rader

It's now May 11, 1944 and he's just consolidated his control of Hokkaido. Now we'll see what his next move is. Also some minor skirmishing in New Guinea near Lae.

India is mysteriously quiet. I wonder if he might be bringing his india troops around the worl to bring them to Hokkaido?

We're fortifying the Bonins (already fortified), Ryukus, Philippines, and Formosa. I wonder if his next push could be a jump right across to cut Japan off from the South? If I were him, I would go for something like that. Although he might decide to go straight for the jugular by invading Honshu... I've got more than 5000 AV in reserve just in case he decides to go for this.

In the long run, it is going to come down to a contest of the armies. With all of Hokkaido, he can pretty much land in Honshu at will. If you put all the allie land forces in a ring with all the Japanese land forces, who would win?? Luckily I get some pretty major reinforcements through 1944 and 1945, with soemthing like 50+ division to come...

My question might be naive but why the hell are you fortifying the Philippines and wandering where his next move might be. He can now nuke the HI and for all intent and purposes the game is lost if you don't remove him from Hokkaido at least. Being a lowly AI player only, I suppose I can't give any significant advise, but I would just bring all the best troops back to the HI, try to load them all up from a port on the south west of Japan, and from there dump all the thousands AVs I could find on Hokkaido in a monstruous display of Bushido spirit while unleashing all I got in terms of air and naval power.

The goal of the game for you should now be to preserve the HI a little longer, who cares if he gets Singapore or the Marianas now...

Anyway this is just from my limited perspective of course...

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/9/2011 11:32:19 PM

rader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1
My question might be naive but why the hell are you fortifying the Philippines and wandering where his next move might be. He can now nuke the HI and for all intent and purposes the game is lost if you don't remove him from Hokkaido at least. Being a lowly AI player only, I suppose I can't give any significant advise, but I would just bring all the best troops back to the HI, try to load them all up from a port on the south west of Japan, and from there dump all the thousands AVs I could find on Hokkaido in a monstruous display of Bushido spirit while unleashing all I got in terms of air and naval power.

The goal of the game for you should now be to preserve the HI a little longer, who cares if he gets Singapore or the Marianas now...

Anyway this is just from my limited perspective of course...

This is a very good question.

First, let me state that there is essentially zero chance of me ever evicting him from Hokkaido. I believe this was true as soon as he landed. I conducted an analysis of what it would take to get rid of him, or even hold Hokkaido, and I determined this to be essentially impossible. He had 6500 AV landed, and I had around 1200 in position.

Fighting to retake Hokkaido would guarantee our swift defeat. I don't believe it was likely to succeed if I'd commited to it right after he landed, and now that ship has most definitely sailed. Very few of my ships would even make it to the beaches, let alone would my troops have any chance of evicting him. I don't see what would be gained by throwing away all my aircraft (and especially pilots) fighting over his territory.

Now, you've raised a very good question: assuming I don't take back Hokkaido, do I actually have any chance of winning the game (or fighting to a draw, not losing terribly, etc.). I believe there is a chance, but it is probably less than 50% at this point. But I strongly believe my only chance is to fight a strong defensive campaign. In fact, my tasks as I see it are:

1.) I need to prevent him from conquering Japan. In this, the IJA will have some support from the IJN and IJAF, but this will be mostly in the form of protecting the beaches. Of course, he is so close to Japan that he can almost land anywhere in Honshu at will. Thus, this is actually my greatest concern. I don't know if, even if I bring back most of the land units and build up an IJA reserve, the IJA is up to the task of this. I suspect the IJA, fully concentrated with large bases and air support, can hold off an allied amphibious assault on Honshu for now (I can rapidly concentrate over 10,000 AV at the landing site), but I'm not absolutely certain of this. If I can't stop him on the beaches of Honshu, the game is likely lost sooner rather than later.

2.) I need to blunt his strategic bombing of Japan. For that purpose I need most of my fighters over Japan, and maybe, just maybe, I can do enough damage to his bombers that he can't raze the homeland in time to win the game. Fighting over my own territory should help here. Hopefully I can recover most of my pilots and while he loses most of his. The Japanese had a nasty taste of fighting over enemy territory in Karachi, and it was ugly in terms of pilot losses. Let's see if I can turn the tables.

3.) I think I do need to prevent him from blockading Japan by cutting off the DEI oil. While the oil flows, I can keep up my production (notwithstanding strategic bombing losses). To this end, I do need to think about allied attacks on the Philippines, Formosa, Okinawa, Marianas, etc.

4.) Despite the allied presence in Hokkaido, I would like to retain large parts of the map if I can do so at a relatively low cost. This "safe zone" is vital IMO to allow me to maintain some deployment secrecy and protect the DEI. Additionally, holding an empire at the end of the game (if I am still alive), will be good for the point count.

5.) If I can, I would like to try to interdict his reinforcement stream to Hokkaido. However, I strongly believe that I should only attempt to do this when I see opportunities for favourable returns. Throwing away the IJN and IJAF in a suicidal attempt to cut off or retake Hokkaido is only a way to accelerate defeat IMO.

These objectives suggest to me that while obviously the defense of Japan should be (and is) formost on my mind, I ought not to simply abandon the rest of the map.

< Message edited by rader -- 12/11/2011 9:32:59 PM >

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/11/2011 1:51:05 PM

JohnDillworth

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I heard you mention in the tech support thread that you Navy pilot pools are exhausted so no IJN kami's. Does this mean that there are not enough pilots to fill out the KB?

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/11/2011 9:19:35 PM

rader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

I heard you mention in the tech support thread that you Navy pilot pools are exhausted so no IJN kami's.� Does this mean that there are not enough pilots to fill out the KB?

I have just enough to fill out my existing groups if I'm careful with navy pilots - no more sending them out to die in droves and no navy kamis. But I've got TONS of army pilots in the pool - so I will be using army kamis. I've already started, but they seem not to hit much, even when "trained" to ~50-70 LowN.

< Message edited by rader -- 12/11/2011 9:20:19 PM >

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Post #: 88

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/11/2011 9:29:49 PM

rader

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May 27, 1944.

In this game the Japanese empire is still much larger, although it is in just as much danger, and considering it is more than a year earlier, probably much more danger.

I'm reorganizing my defenses. Below is our assessment of the threat faces by each of the defensive districts. Note that this represents threat, not importance. What's left of india is of course, pretty much useless at this point.

The districts highest on the priority list for defense are:

1. Honshu (of course, an allied landing here could end the war)
2. Bonins (blockade of Japan and stepping stone to Ryukus/Philippines)
3. Ryukus/Formosa (direct blockade of Japan)
4. Philippines (less direct blockade of Japan
5. Marianas (stepping stone to Philippines/Ryukus)
6. DEI
7. Asia (route to DEI)
8. Korea/Manchuria (low priority only because the Kwangtung army is there, and has to stay there anyway).
9. Solomons/NG (route to Marianas/Philippines/DEI - most of the troops in theater will stay here because they are tying down allied troops, but certainly no more reinforcements will be sent and some may come out)
10. Low priorities: India (who cares?), Marshalls (long route, pretty much useless at this point).

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by rader -- 12/11/2011 9:30:03 PM >

(in reply to rader)

Post #: 89

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/11/2011 9:43:35 PM

rader

Posts: 1238
Joined: 9/13/2004
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In defending home country cities from strat bombing, is it better to spread out the fighters on each base and set normal cap, or is it better to set most fighters to do short range LRCAP from larger bases like Tokyo? If I set all planes to something like 30-50 LRCAP at range 3-4, with only 10% or so normal CAP, am I going to get better reactions than if I set them to normal CAP over their own hex and hope they will leak into the combat hexes?

Also, if I turn on droptanks, I gather they will use more supply flying missions, but will they stay in the fight longer and/will there be more flying at a given time over the hex due to their improved endurance?

< Message edited by rader -- 12/11/2011 9:45:29 PM >

(in reply to rader)

Post #: 90

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