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RE: Blizzard! - 7/11/2011 8:28:08 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Q-ball, there's some oddities in replacements.

Another element that seems to take forever is rocket artillery. I had Pavel look into that a while back and he goosed the code to improve it, but it is still slow.



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RE: Blizzard! - 7/11/2011 8:30:48 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		I would think a likely explanation is that weapons systems are weighted so that a rifle squad will take priority in the production queue over a machine gun.  As long as you have any units waiting on the more weighted systems, they would get them before those less weighted systems are produced and distributed down the line.  That would mean refit is only going to help a unit get more rifle squads over another unit in need of the same. Once the need was filled across the board would production move to the next system in line.

< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 7/11/2011 8:35:26 PM >

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RE: Blizzard! - 7/11/2011 8:46:32 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Q-ball, there's some oddities in replacements.

Another element that seems to take forever is rocket artillery. I had Pavel look into that a while back and he goosed the code to improve it, but it is still slow.


Is that true even for Rocket Artillery Divisions?

If so, maybe I shouldn't build those when they are available, and stick to "regular" artillery


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RE: Blizzard! - 7/11/2011 8:57:16 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Build the rocket artillery divisions, they pack a serious punch. (As do the rocket brigades, unlike the tube arty brigades.) But they will take some time to populate, alas.

Here's a way to get around this issue a bit: build rocket arty SUs, then disband them when divisions become available to flood the pool. These SUs are available before the end of 41.

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RE: Blizzard! - 7/11/2011 10:39:14 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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Status: offline 		The build cost of an element determines how likely it is to be built. This relates massively to build on demand items like artillery and infantry. I raised this recently as to why my Cavalry squads weren't building. The issue is that there's so many things that need building and only so many men to fit these requirements each turn!

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RE: Blizzard! - 7/11/2011 10:55:15 PM   
Joel Billings


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Status: offline 		Armaments are generic. I'd suggest bringing this MG/Mortar issue up with a post in the tech support area. Pavel should be able to answer whether it's WAD that MGs and mortars take longer to replace than other items, or if there's a bug or unintended results coming from the replacement system. I know at one point he put in code to make it harder for large artillery pieces to be replaced, but I don't remember anything that would slow down MGs and mortars, but that doesn't mean it may not be there.

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RE: Blizzard! - 7/12/2011 7:15:35 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		5/7/42: Spring Attacks:

With the first clear weather in Months, the Wehrmacht went on the offensive.

One place was not a surprise; the Kursk "bulge" is an obvious spot to flatten out and potentially surround my units. I had reserves in this area in anticipation of attacks on the flanks (but not at the tip).

To my surprise, though, there was NOTHING around the Dnepr line, where I had alot of preparations.

Overall, I am very pleased, though, with this turn. The Germans inflicted some heavy losses on me, but nothing we can't handle. In counterattacking back, we pushed several MOBILE formations, exhanged 1:1 casualties, and knocked-out 139 Axis tanks. We also surrounded an SS Division pretty tightly; I don't think they can be relieved next turn. It could have been worse, actually; the Panzers to the south barely held against an attack where I had 2.5 to 1 advantage in unmodified CV.

This isn't your grandfather's Red Army!




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RE: Blizzard! - 7/12/2011 7:28:54 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		5/7/42: Tactics

I wanted to show what I am attempting to do in terms of tactics this summer.

Generally, the Germans can knock-off any stack they want to at the front. Wehrmacht infantry is good for blasting holes. The more you can make Panzers fight, though, the better. Keeping that in mind, here is what I am attempting to set-up:

At the FRONT, I want just 1 or 2 "Regular" Rifle units. Even a 2-CV Rifle unit dug in has to be Deliberately attacked by Infantry. They will retreat, but that's OK.

Behind them, in rows 2 and 3, I keep the real troops; Guards Rifle, Cav Corps, and Tanks Corps. These are there for two reasons:

1. Further back, German Infantry won't have the MPs to Deliberate attack them. Thus, Panzers have to, which is expensive.
2. They are in position to counterattack
3. They are also digging the next line of trenches

I don't want any GUARDS right at the front, because they can get easily cut-off anyway. I may as well just have REGULARS up there, because I can easily replace those.

Wehrmacht:

If this turn is any indication, I will not have a problem this Summer. It would be different if Tarhunnas can get me beyond the trench lines and into the open, but this turn does not bode well for him. I pushed back at least 7 hexes of Panzers this turn, inflicting high losses. He can't afford to keep doing that, whereas I can easily replace my losses.

I think the Germans are a tougher side to play....you just get more resources as the Red Army. If you plan carefully and build the right stuff, you can have a good army in 1942.

I have 50 Guards Rifle units, all with 5 or 6 CV; about the same as most Wehrmacht Infantry Divisions right now. My Cav Corps are all 5-7 CV, and the Tank Corps are 4-5, and will probably climb. I am pumping-up the Tank and Cav with liberal attachments, but still.....these guys are no slouches.




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RE: Blizzard! - 7/12/2011 7:33:06 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		I would be highly surprised if he really gets anywhere with the currently pretty serious German losses considering their experience whenever they're attacked and his much reduced CV's. Bleeding his attacking units white shouldn't be difficult at all.

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RE: Blizzard! - 7/12/2011 7:45:44 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I would be highly surprised if he really gets anywhere with the currently pretty serious German losses considering their experience whenever they're attacked and his much reduced CV's. Bleeding his attacking units white shouldn't be difficult at all.


His Panzer formations took a real beating in the Blizzard, not to mention the 3 Motorized Units that surrendered and had to be reconstituted. His current OOB is 1,100 tanks; I know we killed older types in the Blizzard that don't matter in 1943, but in 1942 you can definitely use IIIj/42s and IVe and IIf and all the other stuff that died.

I am wary of relaxing my guard; I think the result of this is that Tarhunnas will call it off until June, build up more tank strength, and come when it's 100% Clear, and he can keep some momentum going.

I think I can prevent a real mobile 1942. I hope I don't eat those words, but I have the mobile reserves to do that.

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RE: Blizzard! - 7/12/2011 7:56:50 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		With his current CV's, getting 1:1>2:1 odds shouldn't be too difficult.

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RE: Blizzard! - 7/12/2011 9:38:51 PM   
Mehring

 

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Status: offline 		I think you're right to keep up your guard. A hopelessly outclassed German side can still achieve local superiority in 42, good enough to break a deep line of forts and encircle a good quantity of Russians. That said, from the last stats you posted and the healthy CVs you state, I'd be looking to 'hit him where he ain't' again this summer.

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RE: Blizzard! - 7/13/2011 12:21:27 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Q-ball, he saw your carpet down south and ignored it. No surprise at all. Instead, he hit the "weak" part of your line, and your reserves dogpiled on him.

This is a textbook case why I dislike carpets and prefer defense in depth. You stand a much greater chance of luring the German into a deceptively weak deployment, hitting him, and doing a good deal more hurt to him than a too obvious carpet.

And if he does hit your carpet and busts through it, with no reserves to counter, that too is disastrous.

It's all about the reserves, baby.

One thing I might do slightly differently: don't leave the mobile reserves in the front line after counterattacking. Move them back to the rear. Rinse and repeat. Let him expend himself on your infantry line. You can even set some of the mobile units to reserve if you feel frisky, but that can leave them with low MPs on your own movement phase.

Your tank corps will improve over the summer. There's a big TOE upgrade in July. Properly managed, they can hit double digit CVs by September.


< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/13/2011 12:29:43 AM >

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RE: Blizzard! - 7/13/2011 2:35:09 AM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		A couple things I have been thinking about in regards to this AAR and things in general.

First, I think Q-Ball deserves a ton of credit for hanging in after a nasty 1941. Many players would have said "good game" and hung it up. On top of that, he took advantage of many German mistakes and just absolutely hammered him over the winter.

One of the things that excited me about this AAR was the campaign in general was between two experienced quality players and you got to see both sides to a point. The community has seen far too many games where more often than not, the Russians just wind up kicking the crap out of the Germans with a handful of games (mainly Pelton) kicking the crap out of the Russians to the point that they quit. This game showed a lot of promise going into 1942 to follow a more historical "the Germans launch a limited offensive against a still weak Russian".

I have no clue what Tarhunnas plans on doing (he hasn't posted), but at this point, I think I have changed my mind in that I think it is going to be either trench warfare with a turtled German or the Germans get the crap kicked out of them trying to attack. In short, I think this game is about toast for the Germans, despite the massive amount of damage they tossed out in 1941. It goes to show that no matter what you did in 1941, you have to survive the winter relatively intact and that didn't happen. I hope I am wrong on that, but..

The game in general seems to have a very narrow knife edge where it tips one way or the other quite rapidly and more or less stays that way when in fact the eastern front campaign was a sea-saw affair over a good period of time. Many other games have that type of feel to them, but this one has not demonstrated it in most cases. Hopefully that will change, but until then, I don't know.


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RE: Blizzard! - 7/13/2011 3:30:31 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		It's a long ways to Berlin, Klydon.

If Tarhunnas turtles, the game will stalemate for probably the rest of 1942, barring a brainfart on one side or the other. (This can happen, it's happened in this game, and I just saw it happen the Ketza-76mm game. You never can tell when someone will just up and goof.)

The Red Army has good counterattacking capability right now, but hasn't got the chops to take on the Germans directly on the offense, not until the rifle corps and arty divisions come in numbers. It's one thing to catch the panzers on the open when they are tired out, it's quite another to directly assault heavily entrenched Axis forces.



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RE: Blizzard! - 7/13/2011 3:32:18 AM   
Ketza


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Status: offline 		I agree with Klydon the game between these 2 players has been a joy to read.

The big thing that jumps off the page to me is the resilience of the Soviet army. There was some nasty hits dished out by the Axis but its been shown that the Soviets can take a severe beating and still be strong as time goes by.

It also shows that as the Axis you cannot rest on your laurels after a good summer campaign.


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RE: Blizzard! - 7/13/2011 3:37:59 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Actually, I think the problem in this game was precisely the lack of resting on laurels. The Germans pushed too hard, too far, threw away forces unnecessarily, and didn't straighten out their front and make preparations for the winter. Tarhunnas had a brilliant summer campaign but didn't make the right transition in the late autumn.

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RE: Blizzard! - 7/13/2011 3:40:32 AM   
Ketza


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Actually, I think the problem in this game was precisely the lack of resting on laurels. The Germans pushed too hard, too far, threw away forces unnecessarily, and didn't straighten out their front and make preparations for the winter. Tarhunnas had a brilliant summer campaign but didn't make the right transition in the late autumn.


Perhaps my definition is different. I meant you cannot get complacent and not prepare even when you think your opponent may be weak.

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RE: Blizzard! - 7/13/2011 3:56:03 AM   
Mynok


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Tarhunnas does not appear to be the type of player to turtle, but at this point, it is probably his best move.


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RE: Blizzard! - 7/13/2011 11:25:26 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Actually, I think the problem in this game was precisely the lack of resting on laurels. The Germans pushed too hard, too far, threw away forces unnecessarily, and didn't straighten out their front and make preparations for the winter. Tarhunnas had a brilliant summer campaign but didn't make the right transition in the late autumn.


I think we all need to praise the revisions made to the game engine along all 1.04.x beta patches. If this game had been played in 1.03 or 1.02, after the severe beating the Axis took during winter - exactly because of what Flavius just pointed out - we wouldn't have seen nothing like the quite credible - though misguided - show Tarhunnas set up in front of Kharkov. Even ignoring blizzard effects - as Tarhunnas basically did - his forces still pack some punch.


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RE: Blizzard! - 7/13/2011 12:09:58 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

It's a long ways to Berlin


Only in the north and center is Q-Ball a long way from victory. As soon as the Dnepr freezes again, he can just walk into the heart of the Ukraine a year early with the current frontline.

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RE: Blizzard! - 7/13/2011 12:45:57 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Pieter, he can hardly drive all the way to Berlin from the Dnepr bulge while leaving the rest of the Soviet Union occupied. I also think what you suggest is quite vulnerable to a German backhand blow.

I'd drive north/northwest from this position if anything, and try to get into AGC's rear. Not straight west.





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RE: Blizzard! - 7/13/2011 1:25:45 PM   
Ron

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Actually, I think the problem in this game was precisely the lack of resting on laurels. The Germans pushed too hard, too far, threw away forces unnecessarily, and didn't straighten out their front and make preparations for the winter. Tarhunnas had a brilliant summer campaign but didn't make the right transition in the late autumn.



Or it is a case of the game making the Soviets too big, too fast. Historically the Germans did push too hard without making preparations for winter, so I think that's a non-sequitur.

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RE: Blizzard! - 7/13/2011 3:01:51 PM   
wpurdom

 

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First, AGS did pull back and prepare somewhat for winter, as did AGN.
Second, Glantz makes clear that Stalin was over-optimistic and ran his army into the ground in the winter, then compounded the error in the spring by simultaneously concentrating his reserves around Moscow and launching a preemptive attack in the teeth of the planned German attack in the South. So his entire reserves were either around Moscow or lost around Kharkov.

In contrast, Tarhunnus overextended himself throughout the South and Q-ball did not over-extend himself but attacked with one of the highest percentages of victories during the blizzard that we have seen in the AAR's. In contrast, in Tarhunnus's other game, he has been way more successful than the historical Germans in his southern 1942 campaign.

His forces have not gorwn too big, too fast. They grew because of his careful husbandry and management from the day Moscow fell onwards.

< Message edited by wpurdom -- 7/13/2011 3:03:05 PM >

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Pre-Kursk - 7/13/2011 4:03:01 PM   
Q-Ball


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The German attacks resumed; no respite for the weary Wehrmacht.

North of MOSCOW, German infantry continues to push me back a hex here or there; probably to straighten the line and create some room in front of Moscow. I did manage to counterattack and throw-back 2 Infantry divisions this turn.

But most of the action is between OREL and KHARKOV.

The thrust toward OREL was counterattacked; I re-took 3 hexes from stacks of Panzers. They made only 1 hex progress. It was very bloody for me though, I lost 5,000 men per combat, plus piles of tanks.

Further south, there are two pincers working to either cut me off or force me to pull back. I pushed back 3 hexes of Panzers this turn, with blood on both sides, and lots of tanks going down. It's almost like a mini-Kursk. Which got me thinking.

I have 2 mud turns coming up to think about it, but I am thinking of STAYING in that bulge between Sumy and Kharkov. I have good trenches around, and by leaving those Panzer spearheads like that, it encourages him to keep advancing in good weather.

I plan to thin-out the units in the bulge to just single Rifle divisions, stuff I can afford to lose. (I don't have the MPs yet after the counterattacks this turn). I will move the Guards, Cav, and Tanks to be in back of the Spearheads, to counterattack again.

I want to stay and take advantage of the forts I built, but most importantly, I think it would suit me to grind it out Kursk-style in this spot. In the event of a total breakthrough, I will only lose Rifle units in the bulge, if I thin those out. But at the current trajectory, we will slug it out in front of Kharkov, which helps the Red Army big time. By channeling his attacks, I think I can make the Panzers do much more fighting than driving, which is a good thing.

Anyway, a couple turns to think about it, but I am leaning toward staying, and daring him to continue these attacks.

OOB: The Red Army should top 6 mil next turn. The Germans should top 3 mil; they are right there.




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RE: Pre-Kursk - 7/13/2011 5:11:54 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

Pieter, he can hardly drive all the way to Berlin from the Dnepr bulge while leaving the rest of the Soviet Union occupied. I also think what you suggest is quite vulnerable to a German backhand blow.

I'd drive north/northwest from this position if anything, and try to get into AGC's rear. Not straight west.


Note that I wrote "into the heart of the Ukraine", I'm not suggesting directly using it as a springboard for an attack on Berlin.

Driving straight west would indeed not be the best idea. Getting into AGC's rear is going to be difficult due to the Pripyat marshes, though, so the best he could hope for is unhinging any of AGS's forward positions, which is enough to cause trouble.

The current strategic situation is, however, quite a bit better than if Q-Ball's troops would barely be holding on to Rostov and would have been kicked out of the Crimea.

The forces currently west or northwest of Kursk could, if the Axis summer offensive focusses elsewhere or lacks strength, wheel right towards Smolensk, which would immediately cause problems for AGC.

The Soviet "arrow"/bulge in the frontline pointed west actually has the potential to cause serious damage. Tarhunnas's arrow/bulge in the frontline in the Moscow area mostly lengthens his front.

All Q-Ball has to do in the north is wait until the Finnish morale folds due to being south of the no attack line, so they become 50-60 morale/experience units, which are a lot easier to deal with than 80 morale/experience units. Actually retaking Leningrad may or may not be possible, depending on how much Tarhunnas commits to defending it. Q-Ball doesn't need it to win, though.

For the Axis, holding the frontline in the sector of each army group is like a modified game of Jenga, where the Soviets randomly pull bricks out of the tower and the Axis keep shifting bricks from one tower to the other to make sure it doesn't collapse. A push towards Smolensk by the forces west or northwest of Kursk and a push into the Ukraine by the forces next to the Dnepr would make the shifting of forces process quite a puzzle for Tarhunnas.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 7/13/2011 5:12:46 PM >

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RE: Pre-Kursk - 7/14/2011 6:59:45 PM   
Q-Ball


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German attacks resume out of the 3 spearheads (see previous map). The Wehrmacht knocked back some of the my units and destroyed a row of trenches, then took return punishment when Guards, Tanks, and Cav came over the top and counterattacked, driving back all the armored spearheads.

I am beginning to be concerned about play balance again, I hope the Soviets aren't too strong in 1942. Or maybe Tarhunnas should have not attempted anything until he had several turns of CLEAR in a row. Either way, this offensive period has helped the Red Army more than the Wehrmacht.

Look at the losses; very heavy for the Wehrmacht, easily replaceable for me. No units are surrounded or at any real risk of being cut-off.

I anticipated where the attacks were coming and stacked piles of counterattcking units there, but still.....he should be able to make more progress. If he can't get past the 3-4 rows of trenches (and I keep digging more behind these pushes), he won't get anywhere. Panzers have to be out in the open, not slogging through forts. Unfortunately, slogging is where he is right now.

The real offensive starts, though, in a couple turns, so maybe I'll eat these words later!





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RE: Pre-Kursk - 7/14/2011 8:15:02 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Don't let yourself fall into a mere carpet on the whole front, Q-ball.

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RE: Pre-Kursk - 7/14/2011 9:00:37 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		The Axis can't afford this, which is a major issue. It might actually be good if you pull back a bit in some areas each turn, to lure him in as what you're doing right now will probably just make him call it quits after the obligatory opening attacks, as it will just be too costly.

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RE: Pre-Kursk - 7/14/2011 9:03:01 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Don't let yourself fall into a mere carpet on the whole front, Q-ball.


Why not?

I understand what you are saying Flav, I mean, a carpet of weak units isn't helpful at all, because Panzers can just roll them up no problem.

But a carpet of 3-4 CV Rifle Divisions, in lvl 2 or 3 forts have defensive CVs in the 10-12 range at least. Too much, in other words, to be easily rolled by anything. Sure, the Germans can easily roll one row of that, but not 2 or 3; not enough MPs in a turn, and at any rate, at this stage a Red Army Rifle division will retreat as much as it will rout, just stacking-up on the next hex anyway. The Germans take casualties even on wins against dug-in Rifle units.

I don't plan a pure carpet; it looks that way because I do plan to have Guards, then a row of diggers behind everyone preparing the next row of trenches. So that's 4-deep in units at the German point of attack.

I think it's "Defense in Depth" rather than "Carpet", but defense in depth is key. If the Germans get 5-hexes deep, we are on the run in open ground, and that favors the Germans. If I can slow it down and keep it in front of me, that favors the Soviets.

I hope 1942 doesnt' turn into WWI, but I fear it may. At that point, I hope we get quickly to 1943, because I bet Tarhunnas will be very good in defense, and use his Panzers aggressively against my spearheads.

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