Soviet Artillery vs. moving targets

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Panzer Command: Ostfront >> Soviet Artillery vs. moving targets

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Soviet Artillery vs. moving targets - 5/31/2011 9:45:14 PM

FNG

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I am struggling to find the enthusiasm to play when rocket artillery is bullseyeing moving panzers with monotonous regularity. I just lost six vehicles from three platoons (with 50m spacing) to one 300mm katyusha barrage in one phase (Orders 3 as it happens). That, to me, seems pretty broken. PCK had what I considered to be overly accurate artillery and PCO seems to have inherited it.

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RE: Soviet Artillery vs. moving targets - 6/1/2011 1:13:19 PM

ComradeP

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I had the same problem.

Basically, if the Soviets can see you on turn 1, they'll have a pretty solid guarantee of hitting one of your tanks, also as they generally have much heavier artillery than their historical counterparts (oddly, as time passes the calibre of the artillery I'm facing decreases). In a way, this can feel somewhat lame: they can hit you with everything and the kitchen sink on turn 1, but there's only a very small chance they'll ever be able to call in artillery again afterwards. Even in 30 turn battles, I don't normally see artillery after turn 1.

You don't have to worry too much about a 76mm barrage, but a 203mm, 120mm mortar and 82mm katyusha barrage all in the same phase will generally destroy something.

The top armour of German tanks is also rather weak, so they might survive a 76mm HE hit but a 120mm hit means bye-bye.

Also: as there's currently a bug where the actual spot where the shell lands isn't always the spot where you see the explosion, you can get strange situations where a shell that falls on the other side of a building actually lands on top of your tank.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 6/1/2011 1:16:55 PM >

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RE: Soviet Artillery vs. moving targets - 6/1/2011 4:04:20 PM

ComradeP

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I do wonder what the reason was why the developers tried so hard to abstract forward observers, whilst everything is in place to add them.

Add an infantry team, with 2 rifles, give it the Sniper special ability (+6 to Sighting, -4 to be sighted) and give it a significant boost to the chance of being in contact. Remove the chance of being in contact for all infantry platoons. For the Panzer division campaigns, an armoured forward observer unit could be added, with a Recon special ability (+4 Sighting, -2 to be sighted).

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RE: Soviet Artillery vs. moving targets - 6/1/2011 4:55:03 PM

dazoline II

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I generally remove the MRLS er I mean the katyushas from the scenario XML before playing, all the other artillery seems approprate even on first turn.

There is something called a prevalance setting in each units file, that will change how often you see it occur. I haven't played with it yet so I don't know how well it works.

Also take a look at this thread: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2827945

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RE: Soviet Artillery vs. moving targets - 6/1/2011 5:29:22 PM

ComradeP

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The 82mm Katyusha barrages are OK, but the 300mm barrages can kill at least half of the units in the area they hit if you're unlucky.

I don't know why it happens, but the Soviets get less regular artillery and more/heavier Katyusha support now in January/February 1942.

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RE: Soviet Artillery vs. moving targets - 6/1/2011 9:18:05 PM

junk2drive

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FOs were debated quite a bit behind the scenes.

You can thank me for the 203 and 300 arty. Since I almost always play as Soviets I felt that they get the short end everywhere in the game. Historically the Soviets used a lot of arty, pre plotted and inflexible, with poor communication. The katyushas went through a gestation to what we see now. All tubes fire at once and then the cool down. You should have been there when they continued to fire like other arty.

I used Steel Panthers and other info as a guide to battalion level arty for both sides.

You can always place a decoy in the open for the Russians to target on first turn. For battles you can set Soviets to AOW rules so that they don't have first turn fire.

We could revise the xmls for the campaigns or you can do your own.

Dazoline there is a prevalence that prevents a unit from being picked in a random. Also in the campaign scenario is a tag for first turn arty. It can be either side, both or none but I'm not sure of the text.

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RE: Soviet Artillery vs. moving targets - 6/1/2011 9:30:19 PM

Mobius

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For the costs/benefits the opening salvo is the only thing that keeps the Russians from being heavily short changed. Otherwise their cool down is longer and their response time is longer than the Germans yet the costs of a similar sized battery is almost the same. And as it is noticed late in the game they are mostly out of viable FO units.

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RE: Soviet Artillery vs. moving targets - 6/2/2011 2:09:01 AM

ComradeP

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Even considering that, I still don't entirely understand the rationale behind giving infantry platoons the ability to spot for artillery, whilst forward observers are not in the game even though everything is in place to make such an inclusion possible (and work).

My main problems with the Soviet turn 1 artillery and much reduced chance to be in contact afterwards are that it doesn't take the type of battle into account (defensive, offensive or meeting engagement) and that it just feels a bit weird: if units are visible on turn 1, they'll be targeted no matter whether it's realistic that the artillery would be pre-plotted (which it wouldn't be in case of a meeting engagement or at least some offensive operations), but 80 seconds later the majority of the Soviet units "magically" lose (radio) contact with the artillery units.

Abstracting pre-plotting is one thing, but to abstract pre-plotting by giving every platoon's HQ the ability to call down artillery in its spotting range can be a bit too much, not in the least because historically the time wouldn't always have been there. For example: how do you pre-plot artillery for a meeting engagement? The definition of a meeting engagement more or less leaves no room for planning. It happens, neither side planned for it. Likewise: it feels weird to be the target of a savage Soviet bombardment during an offensive operation where I'm targeting the flank of a Soviet defensive position, with units out of place to counter it, and only 1 unit actually spotting my units.

It can lead to weird situations, where you get an accurate artillery barrage on your positions even though your own units can't see any enemy units. I've been the victim of more than one of such instances, where my units with their +7 (+2 Iron Cross, +5 Panzer Ace) Sighting bonus were seemingly incapable of seeing the enemy unit, even tanks, that could see them.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 6/2/2011 2:11:20 AM >

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RE: Soviet Artillery vs. moving targets - 6/2/2011 3:02:10 AM

Mad Russian

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Because the entire infantry combat system will be worked on in PC4. That will definitely include units smaller in size than squads and more than likely include FO's and Leaders.

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RE: Soviet Artillery vs. moving targets - 6/2/2011 3:04:01 AM

Erik Rutins

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The goal of the original design was not to have each platoon be a spotter, but to give each platoon a chance of contact with the spotter, who is represented through that contact chance and assumed to be on or near the battlefield but not as a separate unit.

The system as it stands right does result in some cases where the initial bombardment is too powerful, especially in some random battles. Giving this more resolution is one of the goals for when we add the full command system and the orders overhaul. In the meantime, we'll tweak the random campaigns to allow for a bit less artillery, especially the heavy kind.

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- Erik

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RE: Soviet Artillery vs. moving targets - 6/2/2011 3:14:02 AM

jomni

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Ah, accurate, tank killing artillery...
Sounds like World of Tanks.

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RE: Soviet Artillery vs. moving targets - 6/7/2011 2:23:20 PM

junk2drive

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Originally PC did not have random generators. Or off board artillery over 160mm. To try to give some balance to the game it was designed that Soviets would get the first turn barrage. This would represent the Soviet use of arty, plotted to known areas, lack of communication, no lack of supply, no flexibility. In other words, lots of boom sometimes in the right spot, but hard to repeat as the game goes on. Since scenarios had to be designed, this could be tested before release to the players.

When we worked on the sounds for PCO, I noticed we had the ability for sounds for larger caliber arty, but none in the game. I checked other squad level games and found a few 200+ mm listed in those games. We added the 203 and 300 for sound effect, visual effect, and because I'm whiny when I lose as Soviets.

Mobius designed some of his battles with the Soviet OBA as reinforcements. That way they are not available on the first turn. Unfortunately for the Soviet player, trying to get someone in contact, with LOS to where you need the arty, is poor at best, after turn one.

So here we are today with random battles and campaigns with not so happy German players. We are discussing what to do in the base game to give a better experience. Changing the prevalence of large arty is one idea.

In addition we have the Art of War and Science of War rules. SOW gives the Soviets the first turn barrage. AOW is standard for the Germans and does not give first turn barrage but gives a better change of in contact. The SOW setting for Soviets can be changed in the editor. In addition the A dropdown can set the first turn barrage. dazoline has modded the generators to give more choices. Keep your eye on that for improvements in the future. It was also discussed that as the war neared its end, the German breakdown caused them to have move of a SOW condition and the improvements in the Soviet situation gave them a more AOW condition. I don't see a way to change that in the editor but I believe it can be done in the xml.

Stay tuned for news. We are listening and want to have the best gaming experience for all.

< Message edited by junk2drive -- 6/7/2011 2:27:42 PM >

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