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RE: Fortress Java - 6/23/2011 7:31:30 AM   
Roger Neilson II


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Status: offline 		My experience is that if you try to defend both there are so many good landing sites on the map the japanese can land at will then cut the island in half and then defeat in detail. Probably better to settle on one and dig in furiously - or dig in somewhere else and be a PITA.

Roger

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RE: Fortress Java - 6/23/2011 8:54:20 AM   
Smeulders

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744

I'm trying to get back into the game (used to play WitP). This thread was very interesting. But I have two very important (for me ) questions.
1) what's a telephone pole in Java?
2) where are the redoubts you talk about? I.e. Wouldn't you hold out in Soerebaja or Batavia? If not where?

Thanks


1) Telephone Pole: aka a very large stack of troops in a single hex.
2) The 2(?) mountain hexes in Java. They give a huge defensive bonus, troops there will last a lot longer than if they held in either Batavia or Soerabaja.

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RE: Fortress Java - 6/23/2011 9:21:44 AM   
undercovergeek

 

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Status: offline 		i find a landing in Kalidjati, a drive west, and then a subsequent surrounding of Batavia closes this base off very well, and a landing at Semerang and a drive south, coupled with a landing on the very southern tip of Java surrounds Soerbaja very well too - only 3 hexes need to be occupied to completely surround Soerbaja and only 4 for Batavia

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RE: Fortress Java - 6/23/2011 9:31:34 AM   
mc3744


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders
2) The 2(?) mountain hexes in Java. They give a huge defensive bonus, troops there will last a lot longer than if they held in either Batavia or Soerabaja.

Thanks

However I could not find any bas in a mountain hex. I checked all the bases in Java and it says "Forest, clear sky, ..."
Do you intend to place your unit outside of a base?

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RE: Fortress Java - 6/23/2011 9:35:42 AM   
Smeulders

 

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Status: offline 		That would be Forecast: Clear sky, better known as the weather report . Bandoeng and Malang are both mountain hexes with a base. Buitenzorg has mountains as well, but is on the coast, so can be bombarded by naval forces. To check the terrain of all hexes, use hotkey "1"


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RE: Fortress Java - 6/23/2011 10:16:47 AM   
mc3744


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Status: offline 		Ups!

Thanks

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RE: Fortress Java - 6/23/2011 12:03:23 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


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Status: offline 		From someone who did use the 'telephone pole' of Niks description in Madeoin Java. IF the Allies have left both Indian divs and the Australians in Java from Singapore (+ assets) then supply will become an issue once isolated and then his large forces will become a big negative for the allies due to the bigger supply draw. I would suggest doing 2 things to get his supply down.

1) lots and lots of bomber raids on airfields. for the supply dump hits.

2) use bombardment attacks from ground forces (you wont get much damage but you will eat his supplies for breakfast (metaphorically). Actually the ground attack will cause more supply loss than the air attacks on average.

Allied reinforcement levels also mean that these units will take forever to rebuild (if at all) so that's a lot less troops in Burma/Australia for the short term future and even long term I would doubt he could rebuild 2 Indian divs before '44.





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RE: Fortress Java - 6/23/2011 7:11:41 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

All of this depends on too many factors to come up with a single hard-and-fast rule.

I do not think the Allies should always pull units out of Singapore.  There are times when defending there can be very effective, buying the Allies important time and space in the Bay of Bengal.  On the other hand, there are times when it's best for the Allies to evacuate Singers and use those troops elsewhere.

I do not see how "telephone stacks" in remote Java terrain would worry an experienced IJ player.  Japan can effectively isolate Java and then attend to those stacks mainly with bombers, finally mopping up with a few mixed brigades or so, just as the IJ player does at Bataan/Clark Field.  I can't imagine an experienced player devoting IJA divisions to mop up operations.

Unless the Allied player can get supply to Java, his troops are going to whither away under a well-thought-out Japanese bombing campaign.  And an IJ player would make a shambles of any Allied efforts to ram home supply. 

Allied telephone poles in remote terrain means the IJ player can take and build the important bases in and near Java.  The Allies won't be able to accomplish anything meaningful.

As an Allied player, I can't imagine trying the telephone pole tactic against a good, experienced IJ player.


Hi,

Well not suggesting a hard fast rule, because frankly...it was a legit and brilliantly done tactic. "I" admittedly was suprised when after careful(somewhat...this is ME after all) preperation, i found not only my landing completely uncontested but that all the major bases and cities were empty. Same for Joe when he landed near Batavia. He, however was not suprised when we found the island empty except for two very large TP's at both Mountain hex dot/level 1 bases.....because he had done something similar to a player one opponent himself.

What bothered me about it was that it just felt gamey. Historically the dutch were concerned about defending their territory...not simply being a sacrificial cog to delay the enemy so that future defenses/offensives in the pacific (considered by most players to be "the main event") could develop. So abandoning every base, resource and city just to score 4x defensive bonus in two hexes by a stack of LCU's just made me feel like i was playing "a game" vs. a simulation of the real life conflict. It's just not the style of game i want to experience or inflict on my opponents. Hence why i'm always an advocate of discussion and flexability when choosing a PBEM opponent. Not saying i will be a pushover when i play Allied and Japan comes knocking, but i do try to play with a frame of mind that says....what would this particular group/nation do.....what's the goal? For Java.....i would at least make a stab at building a defense that includes some of the "prizes" that are valuable to them. To simply stack everything in one or two hexes for the game bonus of defensive terrain as part of a greater "plan" that benefits another is not really valid to me. Thats just me. Hence, i'm not suggesting a "rule" more a style of play and yes....it promotes alot of grey areas....hence discussion is vital. In no case am i criticising our opponents. It was legit...and it was effective and very well done.

Which leads to a more down to earth question. It's said there are counters.....another problem i have with any wargame is when a Pro or set of Pro's is not balanced by a Con or a set of Con's. Thus far, i see no real game mechanics "Con" to this tactic of TP'ing at a highly defensive hex. Yes....airpower will reduce supplies as will bombardments but these will still take time and Player one has a tight timetable that AE (IMO) makes alot harder to keep **if*** facing smart Player two's who know their craft. I may not be much of a player but i know Joe is.....yet ultimately grading our performance based on the historical timeline, we did extremely poorly.....our two biggest successes would not have occured if not for bad luck and one error on the part of our opponents.

open to suggestions of course I think....IIRC...this tactic delayed us by at least 6-8 weeks in Java.


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RE: Fortress Java - 6/23/2011 7:32:52 PM   
mc3744


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Status: offline 		I think that it's incontestable that the Dutch wouldn't have played looking at the big picture.
Hence you issue has, IMHO, prefect legitimate ground.

I do believe it's a matter of perspective. Here the player is the supreme commander of the whole war theater. As such, probably even if there was one IRL, the choice of slowing down the enemy by sacrificing some unit would be realistic and not ganey.
It's gamey simply because IRL they did not coordinate. But they should have.
IRL they made so many mistakes for lack of coordination. Should we replicate them to make the game more realistic?
I'm not sure. I do appreciate your complain, but as a Japanese player I wouldn't mind my opponent doing it, and now that I know about it I might just do it myself too

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RE: Fortress Java - 6/23/2011 8:06:58 PM   
Bill Durrant


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Status: offline 		Not that I play the Japanese side but I've always tried to stop them getting the fuel, resources and oil from Java as I thought this was their primary issue in invading and the longer I stall this the more it hurts them. In that case I defend the bases and not hide in the hills ...... or am I missing a bigger picture?

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RE: Fortress Java - 6/23/2011 8:23:40 PM   
mc3744


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

Not that I play the Japanese side but I've always tried to stop them getting the fuel, resources and oil from Java as I thought this was their primary issue in invading and the longer I stall this the more it hurts them. In that case I defend the bases and not hide in the hills ...... or am I missing a bigger picture?


You are totally right, but if you hold an air base nearby you make his life much more difficult in shipping oil and resources back and forth. Hence you still achieve the goal of hindering his value chain.
You force him to protect every convoy or to kick you out.


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RE: Fortress Java - 6/24/2011 10:50:33 AM   
traskott


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Status: offline 		Best bet is move alll troops from Java and Singapore to Palembang. 

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RE: Fortress Java - 6/24/2011 10:58:56 AM   
mc3744


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quote:

ORIGINAL: traskott

Best bet is move alll troops from Java and Singapore to Palembang. 


If you could, it could be a very good move.
But you lack the PPs and by the time you have them any decent IJN player should be in a position to sink anything you move.
Also, several Dutch units cannot be reassigned anyway. Hence you have to keep them in Java regardless of the sea lines ownership.

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RE: Fortress Java - 6/24/2011 11:10:00 AM   
traskott


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Status: offline 		You can airlifting all the dutch troops from Java/Borneo to Sumatra. It doesn't require PP, plus some aussie troops from I Aus Corps, and III Corps from Malay, with the indian bgdes (airlifted with the L-18 lodestars plus some cats and fast runs of xAKLs, ). I made this at a PBEM, and when the game ended (october 1942), I had 1100 AV at Palembang, fortress 6 and near 7...VERY difficult of assault. 

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RE: Fortress Java - 6/24/2011 11:14:01 AM   
mc3744


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quote:

ORIGINAL: traskott

You can airlifting all the dutch troops from Java/Borneo to Sumatra. It doesn't require PP, plus some aussie troops from I Aus Corps, and III Corps from Malay, with the indian bgdes (airlifted with the L-18 lodestars plus some cats and fast runs of xAKLs, ). I made this at a PBEM, and when the game ended (october 1942), I had 1100 AV at Palembang, fortress 6 and near 7...VERY difficult of assault. 


Cool!
I did not know that you could airlift Restricted LCUs within their territory.
Why didn't you tell me two weeks ago!?!?!


I'll certainly remember this for the next game. Really innovative strategy (to me at least )

Thanks for sharing.

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RE: Fortress Java - 6/24/2011 11:16:04 AM   
David The Great

 

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Status: offline 		you can airtransport them, you have some decent assts as allied player, the chinese have a decent DC 2 unit, the dutch have a few transports, and you can use several recon units for transport duty.


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RE: Fortress Java - 6/24/2011 3:36:51 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Status: offline 		The actual fact is that the Dutch would have never abandoneded Java, 'the jewel of the east'. The political conquences of this would have been too severe and never even considered. This is why restrictions are placed on the Dutch so that everything cannot be withdrawn to Oz or anywhere else. So imho if you want to play a 'game' set in a WWII PTO setting these strategies are just fine. If you want to play a reasonable approximation of the realities of the historical period then these tactics are very 'gamey'.

Please do not bring up all the other items that touch the political reality of the period that are not modeled that would have a major impact on the game. These have been discussed to death in other threads. Remember I did say reasonable approximation  

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RE: Fortress Java - 6/24/2011 4:09:02 PM   
traskott


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Status: offline 		Well, Java is the jewel, but re-deploying troops at Sumatra is not politically un-thinkable...

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RE: Fortress Java - 6/24/2011 4:11:27 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: traskott

You can airlifting all the dutch troops from Java/Borneo to Sumatra. It doesn't require PP, plus some aussie troops from I Aus Corps, and III Corps from Malay, with the indian bgdes (airlifted with the L-18 lodestars plus some cats and fast runs of xAKLs, ). I made this at a PBEM, and when the game ended (october 1942), I had 1100 AV at Palembang, fortress 6 and near 7...VERY difficult of assault. 



You wouldn't believe the things one can do with airlift. I was amazed at what was being done with Amphibious PBY squadrons.....moving units in, then evac'ing them out. Unreal.



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RE: Fortress Java - 6/24/2011 4:18:24 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

Not that I play the Japanese side but I've always tried to stop them getting the fuel, resources and oil from Java as I thought this was their primary issue in invading and the longer I stall this the more it hurts them. In that case I defend the bases and not hide in the hills ...... or am I missing a bigger picture?


You are totally right, but if you hold an air base nearby you make his life much more difficult in shipping oil and resources back and forth. Hence you still achieve the goal of hindering his value chain.
You force him to protect every convoy or to kick you out.



Problem here is that unless one lunges to the fringe first, by the time air superiority is established or made contestable around Java, an industrious Player two has already convoyed out a huge swatch of fuel along with a ton of merchant shipping. Different subject but yeah.....i think that its also 'gamey' and don't do it when i'm player two. AE actually works great logistically when the "Suck the SRA dry" strategy is not employed to the max. I found in past game as Player two that shipping fuel from the US to the SoPac area to build up a reserve followed along fairly historical time tables allowing a decent amount of warships to operate in the Coral Sea area. (with some brief BB sorties though not recommended due to the expenditure). By around May 42, this was achieved.

However beginning the great fuel evac on Dec 8 throws the logistical balance out the window. I knew i could have 'supercharged' my logistic efforts by draining the SRA dry but didn't. Just didn't feel realistic to me. Only way to "counter" it that i know of is to either rush KB back from Pearl or not have it go to Pearl at all. Ultimately, I had KB lurking around Java for much of early 42 supporting landings and trying to disrupt the "mass Exodus" of convoys from Java to Oz. I once, back in dev days advocating severely reducing the fuel stockpiles for the SRA at game start. Felt this would help reduce the effect of "Operation Exodus" in future GC's. There are something like over a million fuel points sitting there between Singapore, Palembang, Batavia, and the Dutch capital of Java. (+ Manila)


< Message edited by Nikademus -- 6/24/2011 4:19:00 PM >

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