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naval units damage - 6/30/2011 8:05:05 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 4176
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline 		Sorry for my questions gentlemen, when I attack a port under the port attack option some of the outcomes are damaged. What does damage mean, I looked up damage in the rule book and in the index files but so far cant find any reference to what damage does to units, I understand what aborted means but I don't see anything on the unit counter in the wif computer game that indicates that anything happened. What happens in the board game when a naval unit is damaged? Is it turned over and how is it repaired?

Bo
Post #: 1
RE: naval units damage - 6/30/2011 8:16:23 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		This is the relevant rules regarding damaged naval units. If anything remains unclear please ask and I will try to clarify things.

"The unit is damaged. Put a damage marker on the unit. If the unit is already damaged, it (and any cargo on it)
is destroyed instead. A damaged unit only has half its printed attack, AA and ASW factors. Its defense factor
is 1 higher. Its range and speed are not affected. A damaged CV may not fly carrier planes (see 14.4). At the
end of combat in this sea area (not each round), all damaged units must abort."

"Put damaged naval units that successfully abort into the repair pool. Put any cargo on a damaged TRS in the
production pool to arrive as a reinforcement in the next turn."

And the repair damage rule:

"All other naval units have two costs shown in their unit data. The first number is the build points it costs to
put the unit on its first production cycle. [Clarification. You are not required to control a port to start naval
production - Feb. 16, 1998.] It is also the cost to repair the unit. The second number is the cost to put the unit on its
second production cycle.
All naval units take 2 turns to repair. Convoy points don’t get damaged, so you won’t ever repair them."

< Message edited by Orm -- 6/30/2011 8:17:08 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to bo)
Post #: 2
RE: naval units damage - 6/30/2011 8:16:29 PM   
Sewerlobster


Posts: 330
Joined: 5/7/2007
From: Reading, Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Whoops, too slow -- what he said.

{original text deleted as it was just a repeat of what Orm posted just before me}

< Message edited by SewerStarFish -- 7/5/2011 2:23:06 AM >

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Post #: 3
RE: naval units damage - 6/30/2011 8:52:51 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 4176
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

This is the relevant rules regarding damaged naval units. If anything remains unclear please ask and I will try to clarify things.

"The unit is damaged. Put a damage marker on the unit. If the unit is already damaged, it (and any cargo on it)
is destroyed instead. A damaged unit only has half its printed attack, AA and ASW factors. Its defense factor
is 1 higher. Its range and speed are not affected. A damaged CV may not fly carrier planes (see 14.4). At the
end of combat in this sea area (not each round), all damaged units must abort."

"Put damaged naval units that successfully abort into the repair pool. Put any cargo on a damaged TRS in the
production pool to arrive as a reinforcement in the next turn."

And the repair damage rule:

"All other naval units have two costs shown in their unit data. The first number is the build points it costs to
put the unit on its first production cycle. [Clarification. You are not required to control a port to start naval
production - Feb. 16, 1998.] It is also the cost to repair the unit. The second number is the cost to put the unit on its
second production cycle.
All naval units take 2 turns to repair. Convoy points don’t get damaged, so you won’t ever repair them."

Thanks Orm clears up things do you know where the rule shows in the raw document file.

Bo

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 4
RE: naval units damage - 6/30/2011 8:53:39 PM   
bo

 

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Joined: 5/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

Whoops, too slow -- what he said.

huh!

Bo

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Post #: 5
RE: naval units damage - 6/30/2011 9:24:10 PM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline 		RAW 11.5.8 has a Combat Results table that has close to that text in it.

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(in reply to bo)
Post #: 6
RE: naval units damage - 6/30/2011 10:02:12 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		In addition to RAW 11.5.8 as Red Prince said you can find the rules regarding repairing ships in "13.6.5 Building units" and below the heading "Naval Units".

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 7
RE: naval units damage - 6/30/2011 11:40:55 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		From the MWIF Players Manual:

On the left is an example of the Repair Pool with text underneath that describes it.

On the right is a discussion of how ships become damaged.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 8
RE: naval units damage - 7/1/2011 3:48:15 AM   
bo

 

Posts: 4176
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

This is the relevant rules regarding damaged naval units. If anything remains unclear please ask and I will try to clarify things


I love that statement about unclear and clarify, you have been talking to Paul about me understanding things have you not? Thank you it cleared up the damage question, what is happening is I will do something in the WIF computer game and the computer program handles it correctly but no explanation as to what rule particular rule they are complying with. Thanks again Orm appreciate your help.

Bo

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 9
RE: naval units damage - 7/1/2011 6:19:57 PM   
Plainian

 

Posts: 212
Joined: 9/22/2006
From: Dundee in Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

A damaged unit only has half its printed attack, AA and ASW factors. Its defense factor is 1 higher. Its range and speed are not affected. A damaged CV may not fly carrier planes (see 14.4).



I see that damaged units have their attack factors halved plus their ability to defend against air/submarine is also halved.

Its range and speed is not affected which I find a bit strange but I am guessing that this can be justified because of the scale of the game.

The defensive strength being increased by +1 puzzles me though? Just out of curiosity whats the WIF justification for this and how does it work in the game?

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 10
RE: naval units damage - 7/1/2011 7:04:48 PM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

A damaged unit only has half its printed attack, AA and ASW factors. Its defense factor is 1 higher. Its range and speed are not affected. A damaged CV may not fly carrier planes (see 14.4).



I see that damaged units have their attack factors halved plus their ability to defend against air/submarine is also halved.

Its range and speed is not affected which I find a bit strange but I am guessing that this can be justified because of the scale of the game.

The defensive strength being increased by +1 puzzles me though? Just out of curiosity whats the WIF justification for this and how does it work in the game?

In WiF and MWiF, a lower defense factor is better, so +1 means you are less able to defend yourself. Defense can range from zero to ten. In order to inflict a result (Destroy, Damage, Abort) on a target, the defense factor or less has to be rolled on a 10 sided die. So, a 6 defense, means 60% chance of the result happening. +1 to 7 means a 70% chance.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Plainian)
Post #: 11
RE: naval units damage - 7/1/2011 8:20:38 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

RAW 11.5.8 has a Combat Results table that has close to that text in it.


RAW 11.5.8 Do you mean RAC 11.5.8

RAW = ADG WiF Rules As Written.

RAC = Matrix Games MWiF Rules As Coded

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University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 12
RE: naval units damage - 7/1/2011 10:34:38 PM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

RAW 11.5.8 has a Combat Results table that has close to that text in it.


RAW 11.5.8 Do you mean RAC 11.5.8

RAW = ADG WiF Rules As Written.

RAC = Matrix Games MWiF Rules As Coded

Nope. WIF FE RAW 7.0 has a section 11.5.8 Surface Naval Combat, with the table I mentioned. Steve posted the same section from RAC.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 13
RE: naval units damage - 7/2/2011 1:09:13 PM   
Plainian

 

Posts: 212
Joined: 9/22/2006
From: Dundee in Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

A damaged unit only has half its printed attack, AA and ASW factors. Its defense factor is 1 higher. Its range and speed are not affected. A damaged CV may not fly carrier planes (see 14.4).



I see that damaged units have their attack factors halved plus their ability to defend against air/submarine is also halved.

Its range and speed is not affected which I find a bit strange but I am guessing that this can be justified because of the scale of the game.

The defensive strength being increased by +1 puzzles me though? Just out of curiosity whats the WIF justification for this and how does it work in the game?

In WiF and MWiF, a lower defense factor is better, so +1 means you are less able to defend yourself. Defense can range from zero to ten. In order to inflict a result (Destroy, Damage, Abort) on a target, the defense factor or less has to be rolled on a 10 sided die. So, a 6 defense, means 60% chance of the result happening. +1 to 7 means a 70% chance.


Thanks for the reply.

So 'in theory' a damaged warship is 50% less effective in attacking and only 10% less effective in defending against other surface ships.

Will go and see if I can dig out my WIF 5th Ed charts to see how this actually pans out on the CRT table.

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 14
RE: naval units damage - 7/2/2011 5:22:15 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		The Defense value is like a "saving roll". If the ship had a defense factor of 2 it can also be said it becomes 50% more likely to be further damaged, but if it had one of 6 then it becomes only 18.3% more likely. It's a game mechanism and using a 1D10, halving or doubling the original defense factor obviously would not work.

Some big BBs have a defense value of Zero and can only be sunk by getting two Xs or an X and a very lucky D in the same engagement.

_____________________________

Paul

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Post #: 15
RE: naval units damage - 7/2/2011 6:29:03 PM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Some big BBs have a defense value of Zero and can only be sunk by getting two Xs or an X and a very lucky D in the same engagement.


I wonder if I can think of any of those BBs . . .

<---------

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

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Post #: 16
RE: naval units damage - 7/2/2011 7:25:15 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Battleships with a zero defense factor:

Japanese: Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Karyu, Suma, and Hizen

United States of America: Montana, Ohio, Maine, and Louisiana


< Message edited by Extraneous -- 7/2/2011 7:31:11 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 17
RE: naval units damage - 7/2/2011 8:43:57 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Battleships with (or should have) a zero defense factor:

Japanese: Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Karyu, Suma, and Hizen

United States of America: Montana, Ohio, Maine, and Louisiana

Commonwealth: HMS Warspite

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 18
RE: naval units damage - 7/2/2011 10:13:43 PM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Battleships with (or should have) a zero defense factor:

Japanese: Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Karyu, Suma, and Hizen

United States of America: Montana, Ohio, Maine, and Louisiana

Commonwealth: HMS Warspite

My BB can beat up your BB any day! :-P

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 19
RE: naval units damage - 7/2/2011 11:54:26 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Yeah, but my dad's bigger than your dad so yah boo sucks to you Mr P

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 20
RE: naval units damage - 7/3/2011 12:06:00 AM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline 		to Rob

To all the rest of you, I apologize for the off topic digression. Must be the hot weather or something

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 21
RE: naval units damage - 7/3/2011 7:28:01 AM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		I wish to clarify the wording in the left-hand panel in post #8.

It reads, in part: "Repaired Naval Units go into the production pool."

If I recall correctly, damaged naval units go into the repair pool. When repaired, they are placed face up on the production circle/track, two turns into the future.

13.6.5 in my rules booklet:

"All other Naval Units have two costs printed on their back. The first number is the build points it costs to put the unit on its first production cycle. It is also the cost to repair the unit." <snip> "All Naval Units take two turns to repair." <snip> "You also put naval units face up if you are repairing them from the repair pool."

Is the wording in post 8 an error, or is this a difference as reflecting in the MWiF version of the game?

I apologize if this is a stupid nitpick...

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 22
RE: naval units damage - 7/3/2011 9:59:09 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

I wish to clarify the wording in the left-hand panel in post #8.

It reads, in part: "Repaired Naval Units go into the production pool."

If I recall correctly, damaged naval units go into the repair pool. When repaired, they are placed face up on the production circle/track, two turns into the future.

13.6.5 in my rules booklet:

"All other Naval Units have two costs printed on their back. The first number is the build points it costs to put the unit on its first production cycle. It is also the cost to repair the unit." <snip> "All Naval Units take two turns to repair." <snip> "You also put naval units face up if you are repairing them from the repair pool."

Is the wording in post 8 an error, or is this a difference as reflecting in the MWiF version of the game?

I apologize if this is a stupid nitpick...

MWIF doesn't have a "production circle/track". Instead it has a Production Pool with 6 'compartments' - one for each turn in a calendar year. You can see them in Post #8, at the top of the list of 'Pools'.

So we are saying the same thing with different words.

The Players Manual has a fuller description of the repair process in the section describing production.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to mlees)
Post #: 23
RE: naval units damage - 7/3/2011 6:12:25 PM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		OK, thanks!

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Post #: 24
RE: naval units damage - 7/4/2011 9:06:50 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

A damaged unit only has half its printed attack, AA and ASW factors. Its defense factor is 1 higher. Its range and speed are not affected. A damaged CV may not fly carrier planes (see 14.4).



I see that damaged units have their attack factors halved plus their ability to defend against air/submarine is also halved.

Its range and speed is not affected which I find a bit strange but I am guessing that this can be justified because of the scale of the game.

The defensive strength being increased by +1 puzzles me though? Just out of curiosity whats the WIF justification for this and how does it work in the game?

In WiF and MWiF, a lower defense factor is better, so +1 means you are less able to defend yourself. Defense can range from zero to ten. In order to inflict a result (Destroy, Damage, Abort) on a target, the defense factor or less has to be rolled on a 10 sided die. So, a 6 defense, means 60% chance of the result happening. +1 to 7 means a 70% chance.


Thanks for the reply.

So 'in theory' a damaged warship is 50% less effective in attacking and only 10% less effective in defending against other surface ships.

Will go and see if I can dig out my WIF 5th Ed charts to see how this actually pans out on the CRT table.


I think the right approach if this: You have a ship with a "defense factor of 6 (the average, there are many worse but also some smaller - some battleships) it would mean that you have a 40% possibilities of (for example) not sinking, if it gets damaged, for the next result he will have afactor of 7, which means he has a 30% of not sinking, so his chances have gone a 25% worse.

being the aerage between 6 and 7, if we think about seven it would come down from 30% to 20%, losing 33% posibilities of salvation.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 7/4/2011 9:07:17 AM >

(in reply to Plainian)
Post #: 25
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