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RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 10/30/2016 11:54:01 AM

warspite1

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An interesting discussion has developed in the modding thread about Japan's options in 1941.

Does anyone know any good books on Japan's journey to war - and specifically the internal and external discussions, debates and communications on the options available re China, and what to do about Roosevelt's screw tightening on Japan's economic position?

I have read Rising Sun and The Road to War as well as countless books that touch on the subject high level. I am looking for something much more detailed that covers the thoughts of the army, the navy, the Emperor's role and those poor anti-war politicians who had to walk a fine line between trying to do what was best for Japan's long term future and the personal wish to keep their heads firmly attached to their body's.....

Thanks.

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Post #: 151

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 10/30/2016 7:55:31 PM

geofflambert

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It seems to me that the Japanese aren't much into writing histories, kind of like they weren't and maybe still aren't much into collecting intelligence. Notice below that only three out of eleven (not a scientific sample) is Japanese. Anyways a good place to start looking might be those two Wiki's.

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Post #: 152

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 10/30/2016 7:58:40 PM

geofflambert

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Well, maybe not.

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Post #: 153

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 10/30/2016 8:03:13 PM

geofflambert

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Here's Hata's list, might be some interesting stuff in there.

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Post #: 154

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 10/30/2016 8:24:56 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Here's Hata's list, might be some interesting stuff in there.

Is that the same Hata from Cap Mandrake's AAR? That guy was everywhere in WW II(D)!

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 155

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 11/1/2016 4:12:03 PM

geofflambert

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From: St. Louis
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I may have mentioned this before, but I was greatly impressed with this book when I was a teen. It mostly involves military issues but it's no fun to read. Kind of the way "Private Ryan" was no fun (for me). Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. I didn't realize it til today, or forgot, the Sand Creek Massacre occurred on my birthday. No, I'm not that old, it wasn't my birthday at the time (1864).

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Post #: 156

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 11/2/2016 3:17:27 AM

Mike Dubost

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Joined: 8/24/2008
From: Sacramento, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

An interesting discussion has developed in the modding thread about Japan's options in 1941.

Does anyone know any good books on Japan's journey to war - and specifically the internal and external discussions, debates and communications on the options available re China, and what to do about Roosevelt's screw tightening on Japan's economic position?

I have read Rising Sun and The Road to War as well as countless books that touch on the subject high level. I am looking for something much more detailed that covers the thoughts of the army, the navy, the Emperor's role and those poor anti-war politicians who had to walk a fine line between trying to do what was best for Japan's long term future and the personal wish to keep their heads firmly attached to their body's.....

Thanks.

Last year I read a book on this topic called Japan 1941 by Eri Hota. It talks about the private face and public face views of the admirals, statesmen, and generals. I found it an interesting read.

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 157

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 11/2/2016 5:43:15 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

An interesting discussion has developed in the modding thread about Japan's options in 1941.

Does anyone know any good books on Japan's journey to war - and specifically the internal and external discussions, debates and communications on the options available re China, and what to do about Roosevelt's screw tightening on Japan's economic position?

I have read Rising Sun and The Road to War as well as countless books that touch on the subject high level. I am looking for something much more detailed that covers the thoughts of the army, the navy, the Emperor's role and those poor anti-war politicians who had to walk a fine line between trying to do what was best for Japan's long term future and the personal wish to keep their heads firmly attached to their body's.....

Thanks.

Last year I read a book on this topic called Japan 1941 by Eri Hota. It talks about the private face and public face views of the admirals, statesmen, and generals. I found it an interesting read.

warspite1

Mike this has really mixed reviews on Amazon. Does this book go into any detail on the Japanese options in 1941? For example is there any mention of the April 1941 pact with the USSR, who instigated it etc?

Thanks.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 158

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 11/2/2016 5:47:36 PM

pontiouspilot

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You may try "Japan 1941" by Eri Hotta. I found it a bit ponderous but it covers the dysfunctional mess that Japan was in in 1941.

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Post #: 159

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 11/2/2016 6:02:55 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

You may try "Japan 1941" by Eri Hotta. I found it a bit ponderous but it covers the dysfunctional mess that Japan was in in 1941.

warspite1

Right so do fancy having a go at answering post 158?

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 160

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 11/2/2016 8:11:03 PM

pontiouspilot

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sorry...missed the obvious!

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Post #: 161

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 11/3/2016 3:27:00 AM

Mike Dubost

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

An interesting discussion has developed in the modding thread about Japan's options in 1941.

Does anyone know any good books on Japan's journey to war - and specifically the internal and external discussions, debates and communications on the options available re China, and what to do about Roosevelt's screw tightening on Japan's economic position?

I have read Rising Sun and The Road to War as well as countless books that touch on the subject high level. I am looking for something much more detailed that covers the thoughts of the army, the navy, the Emperor's role and those poor anti-war politicians who had to walk a fine line between trying to do what was best for Japan's long term future and the personal wish to keep their heads firmly attached to their body's.....

Thanks.

Last year I read a book on this topic called Japan 1941 by Eri Hota. It talks about the private face and public face views of the admirals, statesmen, and generals. I found it an interesting read.

warspite1

Mike this has really mixed reviews on Amazon. Does this book go into any detail on the Japanese options in 1941? For example is there any mention of the April 1941 pact with the USSR, who instigated it etc?

Thanks.

Well, not having read the reviews on Amazon yet, I am not in a position to comment intelligently. I intend to look just to see what they say.

As for your other questions: Yes, it does discuss the pact with the USSR and who instigated it. The book also includes the discussions and debates in Tokyo and the various options on the table. To a lesser extent, it also talks about debates in Washington. I think that is actually one possible criticism in that my recollection is the focus is much more on Tokyo than Washington, but it by no means exclusively Tokyo.
If you are asking about plausible options not on the table (for example, trying to mobilize Americans of Japanese descent as a pressure group/voting block, or maybe attempting major PRE-war support of Indian independence movements), then, no. The book is almost totally silent on such matters.

Edit "it exclusively Tokyo" left out "focuses on".

< Message edited by Mike Dubost -- 11/3/2016 3:28:28 AM >

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Post #: 162

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 11/4/2016 1:04:30 AM

pmelheck1

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I just started the fleet at flood tide
https://www.amazon.com/Fleet-Flood-Tide-America-1944-1945/dp/0345548701/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1478217814&sr=8-1&keywords=the+fleet+at+flood+tide

< Message edited by mullk -- 11/4/2016 1:05:37 AM >

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Post #: 163

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 11/6/2017 4:48:48 PM

Macclan5

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Bump
--

Interestingly just read Pacific Crucible by Ian Toll.

I presuppose many here have already read it.

It was on my go find list (rarely Amazon shop - more a book store type) and got it.

I read a number of posts from forumites indicating 'good but nothing new here' ~ and overall thats a fair assessment.

One note

"Conventional wisdom is that the Allies won a strategic victory in Coral Sea while the Japanese won a Tactical Victory'.

Mr Toll goes on to reference Websters Dictionary and speaks to various ways to tally up the losses. i.e. Yes Lexington / Oiler/ DD was lost in exchange for a smaller carrier etc..but the air groups and lack of participation of the 'b fleet team' in the battle of Midway only a month latter.therefore lack of concentration of forces.... etc

I wished Mr Toll 'expanded - or debated at more length within his book' ~ very good few pages summarizing the Battle of the Coral Sea.

I do not think I had read this thought debated before.

I think I had always followed in line with conventional wisdom in this score; but perhaps I too overvalued the loss of Lex in the balance of analysis at Coral Sea.

Perhaps there was no Japanese tactical victory at all. The sinking of the Lex did not:

(1) further Japan's strategic goals of Australian isolation
(2) prevent American operations at Midway
(3) create an opening for Imperial Japans expansion to Fiji or other South Pacific islands they had started to plan for

Anyway worth a good reread as I debate this in my own mind and gameplay.

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Post #: 164

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 11/6/2017 7:17:27 PM

spence

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quote:

It seems to me that the Japanese aren't much into writing histories,

It seems to me that the Japanese aren't much into writing histories...IN ENGLISH

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Post #: 165

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 8/26/2018 1:06:46 PM

ny59giants

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I have been searching at Amazon.com for many months about books about Asia from the end of the first Sino-Japanese War of 1894-95 to WW2.

The author of "The Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895" by S.C.M. Paine has recently put out a book, "The Wars for Asia 1911 - 1949" that I recently got and am finding very helpful in filling in my knowledge of those years.

Just thought I would post about them for those who seek knowledge of the years before 1941 in this area of the world.

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Post #: 166

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 8/26/2018 4:07:44 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

I have been searching at Amazon.com for many months about books about Asia from the end of the first Sino-Japanese War of 1894-95 to WW2.

The author of "The Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895" by S.C.M. Paine has recently put out a book, "The Wars for Asia 1911 - 1949" that I recently got and am finding very helpful in filling in my knowledge of those years.

Just thought I would post about them for those who seek knowledge of the years before 1941 in this area of the world.

Have you read Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan 1935-1941? It's by Franco, David and Macri. That seems like it would be up your alley. I know where you can get a copy for the asking too.

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Post #: 167

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 8/26/2018 4:59:33 PM

ny59giants

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Where, Mr Poultry Man?

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Post #: 168

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 10/22/2018 6:27:46 PM

DanSez

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Given the interesting AAR of the unintended war (early Soviet Activation)
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4252977
and some discussion on the Japan vs Soviet front, this is a very interesting book on the Nomonhan Incident and its histrorical impact, little appreciated by most Western histories.

Nomonhan, 1939
The Red Army's Victory That Shaped World War II
by Stuart D. Goldman
ISBN 978-1-59114-329-1

Very well researched and includes some funny stories I had not run across before:
such as the aftermath of a precursor struggle called the Changkugeng incident
page 84:
Tsuji conducted a number of additional reconnaissance trips to the area that winter. On his last such mission in March 1939, he led a detachment of forty men to the foot of Changkufeng Hill, where thousands had bled and died seven months earlier. Tsuji had his men sling their rifles across their backs to show nonbelligrent intent and marched them conspicuously up the hill to within two hundred yards of the Soviet defense lines. There he formed them into a single line abreast, whereupon they all undid their trousers and urinated in unison, to the surprise and laughter of the Soviet troops. They then moved off a few yards and, forming a circle, sat down to enjoy obentos (a kind of Japanese box lunch) and sake. Later, after singing some rousing Japanese army songs, Tsuji and his men departed, leaving behind cans of meat, chocolates, and whiskey for the bemused Soviet onlookers. The burlesque performance was an elaborate diversion staged by Tsuji to mask clandestine photography of the enemy positions, showing Soviet fortifications incontrovertably on Manchukuoan territory.

one of the best excerpts, but lots of detailed back ground filler on an important and underappreciated conflict.

< Message edited by DanSez -- 10/22/2018 6:29:42 PM >

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Post #: 169

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 10/22/2018 8:57:08 PM

warspite1

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Yeah I've championed this book previously, a very, very good book and thoroughly recommended for anyone with an interest in WWII generally and this theatre in particular.

The author not only tells the story of the fighting that took place in this region, but also assesses the impact of the fighting and how this affected the decisions taken by Stalin and the Japanese government in the build up to World War II.

On the military side, the shortcomings of the Japanese armed forces in World War II can be plainly seen to have been in evidence in the way they conducted themselves before and during Nomonhan; the hot-headed Japanese officers and Gekokujo, the lack of sensible planning, the dismissive belief that the enemy was inferior, the inflexibility of Japanese operational plans - all were in evidence here.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 170

RE: Potentially the Book Thread. - 10/23/2018 2:35:16 AM

DanSez

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...
On the military side, the shortcomings of the Japanese armed forces in World War II can be plainly seen to have been in evidence in the way they conducted themselves before and during Nomonhan; the hot-headed Japanese officers and Gekokujo, the lack of sensible planning, the dismissive belief that the enemy was inferior, the inflexibility of Japanese operational plans - all were in evidence here.

Yes, a great summation to the foolish policy of allowing the Generals to set National Policy.
The lack of accountablility, or the criminal perversion of same and the foolishness of 'belief' also played a part in the tragedy.

Thanks, I must have missed your recommendation of which I now second it.
Good book -- pick up a copy.

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Post #: 171