RE: Leningrad: the open door defence

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RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/4/2011 12:31:11 AM

Balou

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If there's nothing that's coming up from behind, there goes the hook.

(in reply to Farfarer61)

Post #: 31

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/4/2011 12:49:16 AM

Hoooper

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Well checkerboard defences are only there to absorb Germans movement points so that when they get to your real defence line they can't do anything spectacularly horrible, like launching multiple attacks and clearing a gap for reserve mobile forces. IMO they should be as weak as possible so that you can put your real effort into building a two-unit-deep line .. fortified .. behind a river barrier .. with counter attack forces .. and a couple of shock armies in the deep rear ... and the One Ring to Rule Them All in a Kremlin desk, just in case

(in reply to Farfarer61)

Post #: 32

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/4/2011 2:28:28 AM

Peltonx

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You want to hold Leningrad simply do what TVD20 did and you hold it and Moscow! Of course the rest of the front will be a disaster heheh. But hes still in the game for sure, because of my Crimea distaster.

Follow the link: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2851380

In my option as a Russain player why even bother wasting troops tring to hold it? Just rail out the very few production units there are don't waste so many troops on it.

As a Russian I would hold Moscow and put whatever esle you have into the south and try and save some production.

Thats a good plan Hoooper, but I have only not taken Leningrad 1 time out of 12 games. The rest of the time as long as Models in charge with 2500 guns the city will fall, unless the russian player puts 50% of his reserves into the front.

What turn did I get to Leningrad vs you? Hmm it was turn 4

Picture is start of turn 5 before I moved.

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< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/4/2011 2:30:13 AM >

(in reply to Farfarer61)

Post #: 33

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/4/2011 2:34:26 AM

Peltonx

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Klydon posted before me. Hes got it 100% right.

Very good thread Hoooper.

Good to see you posting.

As the German player you can pound it out for Leningrad, using allot of guns the same way the Russians use them later in the war. If your attacking from 3 hexes you can take out 90 cv defending stacks. You have to plan ahhead but its do able.
50 cv from 2 is also doable. Kamil had a wall of high def units as you had an I pounded through them.

Your doing good in the game your posting, your forsing him to slide east. If you are able to keep him from cutting you off then his lines will be a disaster during the blizzard.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/4/2011 2:41:30 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/4/2011 3:09:28 AM

Hoooper

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I recall you taking Leningrad on turn 5. I started taking the game very seriously after that

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Post #: 35

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/4/2011 3:26:38 AM

Hoooper

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Also, that stung me into coming up with a theory for The Defence of Leningrad.

I'm also playing a game with Baelfiin in which he has ignored Leningrad and used the AGN panzers to push south of the Valdai Hills and, I would guess, will shortly turn Moscow's northern flank. It's a pretty scary tactic, and I'm not sure if it can be stopped; I'm also not sure what penalties the Germans suffer if they don't take Leningrad in 41. Off the top of my head - and stating the bleeding obvious - I'd guess they have a thinner line across the front without the Finns, and the Red Army has a short cut to Riga and East Prussia if they hold at the Luga, but does that compensate for the loss of Moscow?

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Post #: 36

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/6/2011 12:34:31 AM

carlkay58

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My experience as the human Soviet vs human Axis is that the hook can be very effective and is normally the way it happens. Why is it this way since I know he is going to try this? Various reasons:

1) If you are trying to defend Leningrad decently, you don't have a lot of troops left available to do everything (like hold Moscow, etc.) so something is going to be a weak link.

2) The Germans send one infantry army against Leningrad and the other around Lake Ilmen. If the panzer do an HQ buildup, then they can punch through wherever the weak link is exposed.

I don't really have an answer for you, but your tactic is well thought out and should be tried. But there is no single answer against a decent human Axis that is intending to capture Leningrad.

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Post #: 37

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/6/2011 1:41:12 AM

Hoooper

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Well as I said, the plan is intended to make the best of a very bad situation. Here's the latest position in my game. The Leningrad MLR is solid, the open door has locked the Germans out of the Ladoga ports and the forces east of Lake Ilman are giving ground at a sufficiently slow rate to keep the rail link to Leningrad open until the winter. I hope.

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Post #: 38

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/7/2011 12:19:49 AM

Jakerson

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You use very similar defence strategy than me. I always try to make 3 stack over 30cv points defence line where I dont want to lose ground and where I want to minimize losing of ground. This line is supported with 1 stack line of troops witch I use to rotate troops on main line so my main line troops can refit in back. I start to build my defences in the way that Germans cant deliberate attack my main line until it is fortified.

2 stacks 15-20 defence CV where I can lose ground but I want to consume German offensive as much as possible. I use 1 stack defence where losing ground dont cause immediate danger.

You should also get 3 stack worth of troops in all ports that supply leningrad and fortify them. I mean Kobona, Svir and Novaya Ladoga.

I always have fresh reserves to rotate troops on line and even do couter attack on Germans if they are very stubborn type and attack too much. If I do counter attack I always target it against mobile troops first as those are first troops I want to decimate.

Why you have rifle divs in Finnish contaiment line? You should only use forts, sec regiments and brigades there and send all rifle divs to fight Germans. Finns cannot attack until Leningrad is taken you only need weakest units to block them rifle divs there are waste of resources.

(in reply to Hoooper)

Post #: 39

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/7/2011 3:43:20 AM

Hermann

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ive lost Lenongrad once in my first game vs human the guy is a pro. Currently im at turn 10 in a game defending AGN vs 6 Panzer and 24 Infantry divisions with massed support and falling back 1 hex at a time. you made some big errors:
1. Trying to defend the Luga is bad.
2. Underemploying fortifed Zones.
3. Failure to prevent a breakthrough at Staraya Russa.
4. Concentrating defenses at Leningrad.
5. Failing to employ the Karelian army.
6. Lack of defensive depth along the known axis of attack.

First you need a straight line defense from Novgorod NW to the coast Place the best available units in Novgorod and let em Percolate. The straight line doesnt give him a weak spot to attack and avoids a coup de main. From Novgorod north you need to search the whole map from Rostov to Moscow and pull the very best units in your army to form the line. use light units to screen 1 hex forward of this line dont spare any cost the price of failure is too high. the 3 hexes to the south of the lake at starya russa are to be treated the same way and gradually extended southeast again in a straight diagonal line. Remember that if they crack that line Leningrads a goner fortified or no. so why waste effort on forts in there ? The key to the entire city is the port on lake ladoga. that falls the city, no matter how heavily defended falls. only a fool hits head on vs the novgorod line if you build it. As the germans close to Pskove move all the good stuff 1 hex forward stacked 3 high and move the light stuff back to work the forts. start a 3rd line with brigs and security regts. when the german finally closes up to the line pull yhe good stuff back to the novgorod line and screen the front with security regts from line 3. moving you light divs back to replace them. At this stage the enemy will realise theres going to be a fight and stop to feul and get inf. if he has any sense he will go away and find a better place to use his tanks, by now the starya russa line has been reached and the germans again should hesitate - start a second line behind it with cavalry ( reason is if he screens you and moves to the south you can annoy him and cav in reserve is helpful on defense stack three high for 6 hexes then 1 high southwards towards velikye. again with cav behind. Once he commits to bypassing you and screens your front you can start thinning your lines in the area correspondingly and send fit/ rested units to the Rzhev and Moscow areas. Use the fortified zones along the entire finnish border - thats crucial even n of leningrad. Remove the karelian army the instant it can move to reinforce your lines. bring up brigs as they become available to create leningrad defenses and to protect the port and set your bomber and transport units to night missons to suppply partisans. A well defended Leningrad serves as a manpower reservoir for the moscow battles.

(in reply to Farfarer61)

Post #: 40

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/7/2011 1:47:43 PM

Hoooper

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Thanks for that Hermann, you make a lot of good points. I'd be interested in seeing your defence of Leningrad, if you have any screenshots.

Regarding your specific criticisms ...

1. I'm not suggesting you do defend the Luga, that's the whole point of my strategy.
2. Yes, as Jackson says. I will certainly do that in future. I just forget they're an option, but I have built some now.
3. Wouldn't that have been nice heh heh. But as Apollo said earlier, you just can't stop the Germans from achieving a breakthrough if they want it badly enough, since they can always out-concentrate the Red Army; it's what happens after that counts. Btw the breakthrough was actually at Neblochi.
4. Not sure I get this one - I put quite a lot of forces on the Krasno hills.
5. Interesting. What could I have done with them, apart from fend off the Finn?
6. I had a carpet along the Neblochi-Tikhvin axis, but it's a moot point whether it will be enough to hold the Germans. The present situation is given below, and as you can see it's touch and go. The Axis have reached the MLR in front of Volkhov, but it will be difficult to make further progress, in my opinion. The situation at Moscow is favourable to the Soviets, so I have the option of moving reserves east of likely Axis targets.

(in reply to Hermann)

Post #: 41

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/7/2011 1:48:41 PM

Hoooper

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Turn 16

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Post #: 42

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/7/2011 2:18:04 PM

Jakerson

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Black line is line that you must hold at all cost. You have to build it so strong defencive CV that germans need to delibarete attack with 2 full stacks of troops to break it. This should help you to hold it until mud comes.

Dashed black line is where you can afford to lose ground you can pull troops there to support flank of black line.

Redline show where you can pull back to shorten line but leave units behind to delay germans.

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Post #: 43

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/7/2011 3:15:57 PM

Hoooper

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I agree with all of that! I could have liquidated my position in the red zone last go, mainly to get divisions out of the pocket, if one does form. In the end I kept them there to cramp AGN and slow down reinforcements. The black line is reasonably strong, or at least as strong as I can make it with three divisional stacks. I can't wait to see what happens next ...

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Post #: 44

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/7/2011 3:19:17 PM

Klydon

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Now is when you bring the kitchen sink from other theaters. The Germans have one more turn of clear weather and he is crazy to be in that salient. I would not withdraw the red arrow guys at all. Keep the neck of that base as tight as you can because the German logistics are about to turn into real crap. I would be shoving as many troops as you can on the east side of the salient, hope he tries to do something during snow other than withdraw and then crush him in December. He has at least two armies of troops in there.

The three open spots in the Leningrad line? Shove some troops in them and get rid of those German forts. You got some cav divisions over by the salient. Run one over and I bet the Germans get real concerned real quick as you push west and south from the Leningrad area.

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Post #: 45

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/7/2011 3:34:08 PM

Hoooper

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That's really good advice, and I'll follow it if he doesn't get a pocket next turn. I should add that we're playing random weather, so there's no guarantee that turn 18 will bring the rasputitsa (as far as I know).

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Post #: 46

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/7/2011 9:58:49 PM

Hoooper

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Turn 17 before Soviet movement. The MLRs have held and the panzers have squirted off to the east. I am now pretty confident Leningrad will not be isolated.

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Post #: 47

RE: Leningrad: the open door defence - 8/8/2011 1:11:04 AM

Nikolaj

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This is great stuff! I'm only now learning how to play this game, even though I bought it last year, but I've learned enough that I can at least follow most of the discussions in this thread. You approach is very interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing what happens. It looks like it's working pretty well, though, so kudos to you.

I can't wait to try some of this stuff out myself. Thanks for posting it.

(in reply to Hoooper)

Post #: 48