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I Go/U Go - 8/18/2011 6:03:42 PM

Nikademus

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Curious as to opinions on this approach to the game. (ala "Steel Panthers" of old)

Admittedly, for a game of this scale i'm used to a simotanious combat resolution phase....making this a bit of an adjustment for me.

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RE: I Go/U Go - 8/18/2011 6:20:27 PM

Apollo11

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From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Curious as to opinions on this approach to the game. (ala "Steel Panthers" of old)

Admittedly, for a game of this scale i'm used to a simotanious combat resolution phase....making this a bit of an adjustment for me.

Nik, the WEGO system of (in most cases 1 day) UV/WitP/WitP-AE would be very impractical in 1-week turns of WitE... there are hundreds of counters to move and think about (not to mention endless possible interaction of counter while moving during whole week worth of time)...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 2

RE: I Go/U Go - 8/18/2011 6:59:52 PM

Gargoil

Posts: 389
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Curious as to opinions on this approach to the game. (ala "Steel Panthers" of old)

Admittedly, for a game of this scale i'm used to a simotanious combat resolution phase....making this a bit of an adjustment for me.

Nik, the WEGO system of (in most cases 1 day) UV/WitP/WitP-AE would be very impractical in 1-week turns of WitE... there are hundreds of counters to move and think about (not to mention endless possible interaction of counter while moving during whole week worth of time)...

Leo "Apollo11"

I have been playing wargames for about 40 years now. I have often wondered which method, WEGO or IGOUGO is better. Of course, way back when, there was only IGOUGO because it was with cardboard counts and a paper map. When Europa Universalis first came out, it was a real revelation with the WEGO system. And then Hearts of Iron, Highway to the Reich, War in the Pacific, etc.

In the end, I prefer IGOUGO. I think WEGO games are more precisely right, but they play themselves to much for my taste. I remember Avalon Hills concept when they explained their design philosophy behind Squad Leader - "design for effect". They felt the game mechanics did not matter, as long as the result was a realistic as possible. I feel IGOUGO works like that. It may not precisely mimic the actual interactions that would occur in realtime, but it does yield realistic results.

Edit: typos

< Message edited by Gargoil -- 8/18/2011 7:04:17 PM >

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 3

RE: I Go/U Go - 8/18/2011 9:55:12 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gargoil

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Curious as to opinions on this approach to the game. (ala "Steel Panthers" of old)

Admittedly, for a game of this scale i'm used to a simotanious combat resolution phase....making this a bit of an adjustment for me.

Nik, the WEGO system of (in most cases 1 day) UV/WitP/WitP-AE would be very impractical in 1-week turns of WitE... there are hundreds of counters to move and think about (not to mention endless possible interaction of counter while moving during whole week worth of time)...

I have been playing wargames for about 40 years now. I have often wondered which method, WEGO or IGOUGO is better. Of course, way back when, there was only IGOUGO because it was with cardboard counts and a paper map. When Europa Universalis first came out, it was a real revelation with the WEGO system. And then Hearts of Iron, Highway to the Reich, War in the Pacific, etc.

In the end, I prefer IGOUGO. I think WEGO games are more precisely right, but they play themselves to much for my taste. I remember Avalon Hills concept when they explained their design philosophy behind Squad Leader - "design for effect". They felt the game mechanics did not matter, as long as the result was a realistic as possible. I feel IGOUGO works like that. It may not precisely mimic the actual interactions that would occur in realtime, but it does yield realistic results.

Edit: typos

I played Avalon Hill's:

Operation Crusader
Stalingrad
D-Day: America Invades

and even made some quick reference documentation for them (two sided A4 with all important rules and tips) back in the early 1990's...

Those had the best WEGO engine IIRC at that time and lots and lots of units (i.e. counters on map) but it was many many times very very hard and frustrating (and it was just 1 day and 1/2 day per turn)...

IMHO WitE with 1 week turns in WEGO would be nightmare to make and test (with myriad of things that could happen whilst units move and fight in shared execution phase)...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Gargoil)

Post #: 4

RE: I Go/U Go - 8/18/2011 10:15:40 PM

cherryfunk

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Joined: 8/18/2011
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Personally I love it -- it makes each turn a whole bunch of 'mini turns' as you move units, resolve combat, then focus on another part of the front. If it was a system where you had to plot out all your moves and battles before seeing any resolution at all, I'm not sure I'd have the patience to play it...

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 5

RE: I Go/U Go - 8/19/2011 4:47:26 PM

LiquidSky

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The biggest change between I Go a go go, and some sort of simultaneous movement system, is the loss of control. With the current system, you can move your armies however/wherever you wish. Attack anything you want that is in range, with full and absolute control. Attacking units is primary, taking terrain is secondary. Defense is more concerned with saving units, then protecting frontier.

When you move to simultaneous, you lose that control. You can mass an army at a point in the line and lunge forward, but you may hit Kursk fortifications, or a backhand blow like at Kharkov. Terrain becomes the focus, as the units may/may not be where you think. The defender has to defend the terrain without the absolute certainty of where the enemy is or will be.

There is also an issue of whether you have turn based, or continuous time. If the time is very slow in relation to the action (like EU3/Hearts of Iron), then its like a turn based game. You can spend time thinking about what is going on, as events move along slowly.
If you go turn based, but WEGO, you are breaking up the continuous time with snapshots.

I find WEGO games to be more exciting, and gripping. And Europa Universalis 3 is my favourite all time computer game. But I dont play Hearts of Iron much because I like the total unrealistic "I am a War God" control in my WWII games.

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Post #: 6

RE: I Go/U Go - 8/22/2011 9:23:20 AM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

I played Avalon Hill's:

Operation Crusader
Stalingrad
D-Day: America Invades

and even made some quick reference documentation for them (two sided A4 with all important rules and tips) back in the early 1990's...

Those had the best WEGO engine IIRC at that time and lots and lots of units (i.e. counters on map) but it was many many times very very hard and frustrating (and it was just 1 day and 1/2 day per turn)...

IMHO WitE with 1 week turns in WEGO would be nightmare to make and test (with myriad of things that could happen whilst units move and fight in shared execution phase)...

Leo "Apollo11"

Aaaah, still the best Operational wargames ever made, and the WEGO system definitely contributed to that a lot. Don't forget that V4V series that went before, Arnhem, Velikey Luki, Utah and Gold-Utah-Sword.
I think the engine was rock solid in the last installment and the overrun added in the W@W series really gave the game a lot of fluidity (at least in clear terrain). Interestingly, Tanks could give up to a +10 modifier on the odds in attack, and up to -3 IIRC in defense. Armour DID matter bigtime!
The scale was indeed much lower, 1km per hex (Op. Uranus 3km) so it's difficult to compare to WitE. And turns were 4hours (8hours for Op. Uranus). Company/batt. level or batt. regiment for Op. Uranus.

Still don't understand why Martix hasn't considered revamping this series. They had a large following in the days and I'm sure a lot of people who played them then would pick them up again instantly.

It isn't even real competition for WitE as it's much smaller scale which is probably why WEGO worked.

< Message edited by glvaca -- 8/22/2011 9:24:59 AM >

(in reply to Apollo11)

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RE: I Go/U Go - 8/22/2011 2:19:07 PM

morvael

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You mean this game...?

:) My favourite

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RE: I Go/U Go - 8/22/2011 2:21:15 PM

glvaca

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YES!
Even the graphics still look good!

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RE: I Go/U Go - 8/22/2011 2:22:33 PM

glvaca

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What program are you using to play the game? I know you can use DosBox to get it running but that's not really an elegant solution and the V4V games often crash too.

Looks nice.

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RE: I Go/U Go - 8/22/2011 2:22:51 PM

morvael

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...though the original game plays in 640x480, so you get much smaller part of the map shown on screen. This screen is from a scenario editor I made for the game.

edit: sorry, for playing I know only about the DosBox way, but didn't have any crashes with it.

< Message edited by morvael -- 8/22/2011 2:23:35 PM >

(in reply to glvaca)

Post #: 11

RE: I Go/U Go - 8/22/2011 2:25:00 PM

glvaca

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You have a scenario editor?

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RE: I Go/U Go - 8/22/2011 2:27:36 PM

morvael

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Yes, I have :) Though I was not able to use it, because I don't have time to work on new scenarios (it's hard work to do the maps, the oob, and there are some limitations). My idea was to create some games about the 1939 campaign in Poland.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by morvael -- 8/22/2011 2:30:18 PM >

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RE: I Go/U Go - 8/22/2011 2:34:45 PM

morvael

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The proof of concept scenario works. I just wasn't able to turn it into something based on real history.

Also, I was a bit vexed with that scenario variants are hardcoded in the exe (so no scenario variants in my own games), as are ships with their positions (so it's better to use only battleset 2 and 3) and I was unable to decode weather parameters besides the very basic ones.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by morvael -- 8/22/2011 2:35:08 PM >

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 14

RE: I Go/U Go - 8/22/2011 2:53:18 PM

morvael

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On the positive side, the AI is not hardcoded and steamrolls Polish defenders perfectly, even though that scenario was created some 18 years after that AI was written :)

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RE: I Go/U Go - 8/22/2011 3:01:21 PM

glvaca

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Impressive stuff mate!
Have you tried using the W@W (successor of the V4V) exe/game?

Maybe you could work with Matrix and bring this puppy back to life. I'd be your fan for the rest of your life!

edit: Operation Uranus is a free download somewhere (can also share my install of all W@W/V4V games if you want)

< Message edited by glvaca -- 8/22/2011 3:02:25 PM >

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 16

RE: I Go/U Go - 8/22/2011 3:10:28 PM

morvael

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No, I was unable to get into resource files for W@W, like I did for V4V, so I didn't bother deciphering scenario file for that game, without access to resources (counters, map graphics) that would be pointless unless you want to just move units a bit. I'm sure the newer engine is more flexible than the old one, though I guess scenario variants are still hardcoded.

I did try and contacted several of V4V authors (so maybe they would help me fill the gaps in my knowledge), like Keith or Eric or Lane but none of them was willing/able to share the source code for V4V and Atomic Games never responded to my emails about the game. Keith said if I was able to get into this point with my own research, I have all the skill to write such game myself :) But I'm not an AI expert and didn't have time for that. Time (lack of) is my biggest enemy, you know...

edit: if Matrix is willing to find out what happened to V4V and W@W source code and get it, I might be able to work on it :)

< Message edited by morvael -- 8/22/2011 3:12:33 PM >

(in reply to glvaca)

Post #: 17

RE: I Go/U Go - 8/22/2011 3:36:09 PM

Erik Rutins

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Hi Morvael,

We are also big fans of V4V and we regularly investigate access to those rights as well. In the meantime, we are still working (slowly) on trying to get Combined Arms finished, which was always intended as our successor to V4V. If you are interested in a project and can program, that one can always use more help as well.

Regards,

- Erik

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to morvael)

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RE: I Go/U Go - 8/22/2011 3:53:01 PM

morvael

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I sent you an email Eric, as your PM inbox is full.

Dominik

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RE: I Go/U Go - 8/22/2011 5:03:00 PM

glvaca

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I'm an atheist, but I'll start parying if it helps

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RE: I Go/U Go - 8/23/2011 12:41:39 PM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Hi Morvael,

We are also big fans of V4V and we regularly investigate access to those rights as well. In the meantime, we are still working (slowly) on trying to get Combined Arms finished, which was always intended as our successor to V4V. If you are interested in a project and can program, that one can always use more help as well.

Hey, perhaps Erik you could make an status update on the Combined Arms subforum. I surprise myself checking those from time to time, after all these years

BTW, if you need C/C++ or Python programmers to help on that - I would even be willing to work exclusively on testing

- I would be willing to help for free. Anything to see that project to come to fruition!

_____________________________

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Post #: 21

RE: I Go/U Go - 8/23/2011 2:12:19 PM

Great_Ajax

Posts: 4774
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Dude! Where do you get the scenario editor for this? That is sweet. V4V is one of the best series ever.

EDIT; Should have read the whole thread. Nice work on the editor!

Trey

< Message edited by el hefe -- 8/23/2011 2:16:26 PM >

_____________________________

"You want mercy!? I'm chaotic neutral!"

WiTE Scenario Designer
WitW Scenario/Data Team Lead
WitE 2.0 Scenario Designer

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Post #: 22

RE: I Go/U Go - 8/23/2011 8:58:37 PM

glvaca

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Joined: 6/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi Morvael,

We are also big fans of V4V and we regularly investigate access to those rights as well. In the meantime, we are still working (slowly) on trying to get Combined Arms finished, which was always intended as our successor to V4V. If you are interested in a project and can program, that one can always use more help as well.

Regards,

- Erik

Hi Erik,

I'd love to hear what is standing in between Matrix getting the rights to the V4V and more specifically the World at War series (successor of V4V and better engine).

Is there any hope that Matrix would aquire the rights in the future?

Thanks!
Glenn

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 23

RE: I Go/U Go - 8/28/2011 4:42:48 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We are also big fans of V4V and we regularly investigate access to those rights as well.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik, would right for V4V also include rights for their successor W@W?

Fingers crossed!

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 24