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Finland units disapearition - 8/31/2011 9:02:01 PM   
saintsup

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: La Celle Saint-Clouud
Status: offline 		I'm at the beginning of turn 86 of a PBEM and opening my turn, I see all Finland units have disapeared.
Is this by some rule I don't know or a bug ?
Post #: 1
RE: Finland units disapearition - 8/31/2011 9:06:36 PM   
Theng

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 12/13/2002
Status: offline 		Maybe they surrendered?

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Molon Labe!

(in reply to saintsup)
Post #: 2
RE: Finland units disapearition - 8/31/2011 10:56:14 PM   
saintsup

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: La Celle Saint-Clouud
Status: offline 		I don't see why. Soviets just began to enter in Finland through the north.

What are the surrender conditions ?

(in reply to Theng)
Post #: 3
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/1/2011 12:04:16 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		19.1.4.4. FINNISH SURRENDER
Finland surrenders if Helsinki is Soviet
controlled. There is a chance that Finland
will surrender if, after January 1, 1942, any
Finnish city or town is Soviet controlled
or Vyborg, Narva and Pskov are all Soviet
controlled. If one of these conditions is
met, then a Surrender Threshold (ST)
value is calculated equal to 2 plus 1 for
each German Division in Helsinki plus 2
additional points for each Division that is an
Elite SS unit. The ST can never be greater
than 9. Once the ST is determined, if Die
(10)>ST, then Finland surrenders.
When Finland surrenders, all Axis controlled
hexes in Finland will become neutral,
and German units there are removed and
257
returned as normal reinforcements. Axis and Soviet units are then prohibited from entering or
taking control of any Finnish neutral hexes, to include any type of movement or air drop. All
Soviet controlled hexes in Finland will remain Soviet controlled and Soviet units in those hexes
will remain on the map.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to saintsup)
Post #: 4
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/1/2011 12:13:11 AM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline 		Rule quotations again!  And by Joel no less....

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Post #: 5
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/1/2011 7:54:08 AM   
saintsup

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: La Celle Saint-Clouud
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

19.1.4.4. FINNISH SURRENDER
Finland surrenders if Helsinki is Soviet
controlled. There is a chance that Finland
will surrender if, after January 1, 1942, any
Finnish city or town is Soviet controlled
or Vyborg, Narva and Pskov are all Soviet
controlled. If one of these conditions is
met, then a Surrender Threshold (ST)
value is calculated equal to 2 plus 1 for
each German Division in Helsinki plus 2
additional points for each Division that is an
Elite SS unit. The ST can never be greater
than 9. Once the ST is determined, if Die
(10)>ST, then Finland surrenders.
When Finland surrenders, all Axis controlled
hexes in Finland will become neutral,
and German units there are removed and
257
returned as normal reinforcements. Axis and Soviet units are then prohibited from entering or
taking control of any Finnish neutral hexes, to include any type of movement or air drop. All
Soviet controlled hexes in Finland will remain Soviet controlled and Soviet units in those hexes
will remain on the map.


Well thank you very much.

For the record, I think the condition stating that the soviet control of ANY city or town in Finland gives a 80% finnish surrender probability is a bit harsh.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 6
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/1/2011 9:47:39 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: saintsup


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

19.1.4.4. FINNISH SURRENDER
Finland surrenders if Helsinki is Soviet
controlled. There is a chance that Finland
will surrender if, after January 1, 1942, any
Finnish city or town is Soviet controlled
or Vyborg, Narva and Pskov are all Soviet
controlled. If one of these conditions is
met, then a Surrender Threshold (ST)
value is calculated equal to 2 plus 1 for
each German Division in Helsinki plus 2
additional points for each Division that is an
Elite SS unit. The ST can never be greater
than 9. Once the ST is determined, if Die
(10)>ST, then Finland surrenders.
When Finland surrenders, all Axis controlled
hexes in Finland will become neutral,
and German units there are removed and
257
returned as normal reinforcements. Axis and Soviet units are then prohibited from entering or
taking control of any Finnish neutral hexes, to include any type of movement or air drop. All
Soviet controlled hexes in Finland will remain Soviet controlled and Soviet units in those hexes
will remain on the map.


Well thank you very much.

For the record, I think the condition stating that the soviet control of ANY city or town in Finland gives a 80% finnish surrender probability is a bit harsh.


Actually it seems to be pretty realistic. Once Germany was pushed back west and the red army managed to attack into Finland (succesfully) Finland didn't really want to continue the fight...

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AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to saintsup)
Post #: 7
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/1/2011 1:54:51 PM   
Jakerson

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

19.1.4.4. FINNISH SURRENDER
Finland surrenders if Helsinki is Soviet
controlled. There is a chance that Finland
will surrender if, after January 1, 1942, any
Finnish city or town is Soviet controlled
or Vyborg, Narva and Pskov are all Soviet
controlled. If one of these conditions is
met, then a Surrender Threshold (ST)
value is calculated equal to 2 plus 1 for
each German Division in Helsinki plus 2
additional points for each Division that is an
Elite SS unit. The ST can never be greater
than 9. Once the ST is determined, if Die
(10)>ST, then Finland surrenders.
When Finland surrenders, all Axis controlled
hexes in Finland will become neutral,
and German units there are removed and
257
returned as normal reinforcements. Axis and Soviet units are then prohibited from entering or
taking control of any Finnish neutral hexes, to include any type of movement or air drop. All
Soviet controlled hexes in Finland will remain Soviet controlled and Soviet units in those hexes
will remain on the map.


I am still clad that this game simulates Finnish involvement on war on eastern front most realistic way than any war game before.

To be correct Finland never surrendered actually they made separate peace with Soviet Union and declared war on Germany to push 200 000 Germans away from Lapland witch was part of the terms of Peace treaty. This is also area that is not covered in this game.

Why Soviet wanted to separate peace with Finland well after their summer 1944 offensive against Finland they calculated that it is not worth to lose 500 000 soviet lives just so we can say we won in the end. Finnish artillery was too effective to Soviet to counter without losing massive number of Soviet lives while doing it.


(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 8
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/1/2011 2:10:06 PM   
JAS Gripen


Posts: 19
Joined: 2/21/2011
Status: offline 		After Stalingrad Finnish leaders had no doubt about the outcome of the war but there was two main reasons that kept Finland in the war until 1944

1. the ability of the German Army and Navy to occupy critical areas of Finland faster than troops could be pulled back from the front, and that was assuming that the Red Army would not seize the opportunity...

2. the loss of important agricultural areas to the Soviets in the Winter War and the subsequent loss of harvests and increased need for food in the remaining areas as the refugees had to be fed (about 0,5 million of total population of 3.7 million became refugees). Germany was the only source of imported food available to avoid famine.



(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 9
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/1/2011 2:35:59 PM   
Jakerson

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JAS Gripen

After Stalingrad Finnish leaders had no doubt about the outcome of the war but there was two main reasons that kept Finland in the war until 1944

1. the ability of the German Army and Navy to occupy critical areas of Finland faster than troops could be pulled back from the front, and that was assuming that the Red Army would not seize the opportunity...

2. the loss of important agricultural areas to the Soviets in the Winter War and the subsequent loss of harvests and increased need for food in the remaining areas as the refugees had to be fed (about 0,5 million of total population of 3.7 million became refugees). Germany was the only source of imported food available to avoid famine.


This is reason why Finns leeched as much of weapons and food imports from Germany first by threating to make peace and closer ties with Soviet Union and made peace with Soviet union afterwards when immediate needs were covered. It is called balancing between two strong power diplomatic strategy.

If Germany would have said we cannot spare any help then Finns would have said ok We ask it from Soviet Union then looks like they are winning the war is this really what you want or do we go back to negotiate what help you can give?

Giving Germany what they wanted for free wound have been poor strategy for small country. This is reason why Finns never joined for unrestricted attacks against Soviet Union for free. It was a lot better for Finns stop attack and start asking more from Germany and Soviet Union both from involvement or no involvement. It was also a lot less riskier strategy than other options.

(in reply to JAS Gripen)
Post #: 10
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/1/2011 6:10:04 PM   
marty_01

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 2/10/2011
Status: offline 		What phase of a turn is the Finn surrender die roll made? I could easily see players taking advantage of the rule via a long range para drop on a Finnish city.

(in reply to Jakerson)
Post #: 11
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/1/2011 6:46:52 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		From 19.1.4:

Note that when determining Axis allied country
surrender, any Soviet occupied town, city or urban hex must be linked to the Soviet supply
grid in order to trigger a surrender condition. This means that a Soviet airborne combat unit
dropping behind enemy lines and capturing a town that could cause the surrender of an Axis
allied country will have no impact on surrender until that town is linked to the Soviet supply
grid.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to marty_01)
Post #: 12
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/1/2011 9:15:16 PM   
marty_01

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 2/10/2011
Status: offline 		Very good.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 13
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/2/2011 12:13:22 AM   
Farfarer61

 

Posts: 713
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		Watch out for losing those 2 Romanian towns which are in the Y106 but northerly. Poof goes Rumania if the SS isn't in Bucharest.

(in reply to marty_01)
Post #: 14
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/2/2011 3:15:44 PM   
marty_01

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 2/10/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

Watch out for losing those 2 Romanian towns which are in the Y106 but northerly. Poof goes Rumania if the SS isn't in Bucharest.


Thanks for the heads-up Farfarer.

(in reply to Farfarer61)
Post #: 15
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/3/2011 4:37:04 AM   
Aussiematto

 

Posts: 344
Joined: 2/13/2011
From: Australia
Status: offline 		And, if you lose Rumania and don't have a garrison in the town near to the Hungarian border, that town will turn Soviet as well. And, once that happens, Hungary surrenders too. Ouch (from experience).

Back to Finland. I am defending grimly in October 1943 with the Russians about to break through near Riga and pushing me out of the Pripyat marshes and down towards Rumania. It's not a pretty situation. However, I've got a virtually impregnable defence of Finland in the north, and at Leningrad, and have garrisoned the other key places in Finland against paratroopers or other surprises. So, if you prepare in advance, Finnish surrender isn't really a game changer.

Am just deciding whether to defend Rumania to the hilt or just give it away. Hungary is critical however...



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I still remember cardboard!

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Post #: 16
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/3/2011 2:21:37 PM   
Jakerson

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: majeloz

And, if you lose Rumania and don't have a garrison in the town near to the Hungarian border, that town will turn Soviet as well. And, once that happens, Hungary surrenders too. Ouch (from experience).

Back to Finland. I am defending grimly in October 1943 with the Russians about to break through near Riga and pushing me out of the Pripyat marshes and down towards Rumania. It's not a pretty situation. However, I've got a virtually impregnable defence of Finland in the north, and at Leningrad, and have garrisoned the other key places in Finland against paratroopers or other surprises. So, if you prepare in advance, Finnish surrender isn't really a game changer.

Am just deciding whether to defend Rumania to the hilt or just give it away. Hungary is critical however...




All i can say from Experience that Germany cannot hold everywhere at same time sooner or later Germany have to abandon axis allies and focus defending Germany itself.

(in reply to Aussiematto)
Post #: 17
RE: Finland units disapearition - 9/3/2011 3:45:46 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: majeloz

And, if you lose Rumania and don't have a garrison in the town near to the Hungarian border, that town will turn Soviet as well. And, once that happens, Hungary surrenders too. Ouch (from experience).



That's a good point on the domino effect, because Arad is in Romania. If there isn't a German Unit there, it will flip to the Soviets, and trigger a chance of immediate Hungarian Surrender. Not good!

As soon as the Soviets are close to Romania, placing a German Division in Arad is probably mandatory (since you can't place a Hungarian one there!).

If you are defending in Romania, you probably need a string of German units covering all the towns along the Rail line from Bucharest. That is 11 units to Bucharest, and another half dozen to Y106, around which your Germans probably are. That's several divisions guarding Rail lines! At that stage, you probably have some depleted units to do that, but still.

Defending Romania is a big fat problem. Once the Russians are over the Dneister, the Germans have to be careful not to get completely cut-off.

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Post #: 18
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