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Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/3/2011 8:49:02 PM

DD696

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I am playing against the Japanese AI using a modified BigBabes 28 scenario. Many additional ships have been added to the Japanese side from the enhanced Japan and Ironman scenarios along with 2 additional for the allies. I have made available extra oil and resources for the Japanese in order to enhance their economy. I started on 5 Aug using the betas as they came out and have played to 2 Oct 42. I run tracker both for the allied and Japanese sides, using tracker for the Japanese side to monitor vehicle vs armaments production and naval vs merchant production (had to go in and nudge them in the right direction a couple times), and to keep a light eye on the overall economy.

Game wise, starting in July 42 (but possibly earlier - the current tracker databases start on turn 209) the Japanese home islands began having major shortages of resources with declines in HI and LI production. Tokyo alone was short 51,837 for HI and 51,837 for LI on turn 217, for example, as per tracker alerts. Turn 209 resources in Honshu were about 388,000 to a low of 336,000 until the AI took notice and pumped it up to about 900,000 by turn 298, mostly in the later portion of this time period. Fuel went from 952,000 to 216,000 and the AI is having shortages of fuel for the HI in Japan (and elsewhere). There are 94,000 tons in transit to Honshu. Stored HI points are declining, going from 279,000 on 2 Sep to 246,000 on 30 Sept (note the pilot training HI usage is not included here). On 30 Sept there were 3735 HI factories producing, 3340 not producing (due to fuel shortages) and 38 not repairing. Tokyo get the biggest hit with it's 2730 HI factories not producing due to only having 4174 tons of fuel on this date. There are 1,800,000 tons of fuel in Sumatra, mainly in Palembang. There are 57 tankers sitting in ports with their crews harassing the native women (only 10 in Japan) with another 39 in various task forces. Supplies in Honshu vary from 60,000 to 130,000. Oil during this time frame went from 2,400,000 to 2,090,000 for Honshu. Singapore has 235 AK's dawdling away their time sitting in port. There are many task forces set to pick up supply in Donggala (hex 68,99) even though there are no supplies located there. Tokyo appears to be used as the central convoy hub.

I began noticing the decline of HI production but never took a close look to see what was happening until today. I don't know if the AI will rectify the fuel shortages as it has the resource shortages, but if it doesn't the Japanese economy will be in for tough times. These fuel shortages have been occurring in increasing frequency and effect for at least the past 3 months of game time. I'm nowhere near an expert on the Japanese economy, but it is a tad alarming to see it having these shortages so early in the game and this is the first I've seen it in an AE game.

Should I be concerned about the hiccuping Japanese economy?

Save attached.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/18/2011 6:15:42 AM

n01487477

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696

I am playing against the Japanese AI using a modified BigBabes 28 scenario. Many additional ships have been added to the Japanese side from the enhanced Japan and Ironman scenarios along with 2 additional for the allies. I have made available extra oil and resources for the Japanese in order to enhance their economy. I started on 5 Aug using the betas as they came out and have played to 2 Oct 42. I run tracker both for the allied and Japanese sides, using tracker for the Japanese side to monitor vehicle vs armaments production and naval vs merchant production (had to go in and nudge them in the right direction a couple times), and to keep a light eye on the overall economy.

Game wise, starting in July 42 (but possibly earlier - the current tracker databases start on turn 209) the Japanese home islands began having major shortages of resources with declines in HI and LI production. Tokyo alone was short 51,837 for HI and 51,837 for LI on turn 217, for example, as per tracker alerts. Turn 209 resources in Honshu were about 388,000 to a low of 336,000 until the AI took notice and pumped it up to about 900,000 by turn 298, mostly in the later portion of this time period. Fuel went from 952,000 to 216,000 and the AI is having shortages of fuel for the HI in Japan (and elsewhere). There are 94,000 tons in transit to Honshu. Stored HI points are declining, going from 279,000 on 2 Sep to 246,000 on 30 Sept (note the pilot training HI usage is not included here). On 30 Sept there were 3735 HI factories producing, 3340 not producing (due to fuel shortages) and 38 not repairing. Tokyo get the biggest hit with it's 2730 HI factories not producing due to only having 4174 tons of fuel on this date. There are 1,800,000 tons of fuel in Sumatra, mainly in Palembang. There are 57 tankers sitting in ports with their crews harassing the native women (only 10 in Japan) with another 39 in various task forces. Supplies in Honshu vary from 60,000 to 130,000. Oil during this time frame went from 2,400,000 to 2,090,000 for Honshu. Singapore has 235 AK's dawdling away their time sitting in port. There are many task forces set to pick up supply in Donggala (hex 68,99) even though there are no supplies located there. Tokyo appears to be used as the central convoy hub.

I began noticing the decline of HI production but never took a close look to see what was happening until today. I don't know if the AI will rectify the fuel shortages as it has the resource shortages, but if it doesn't the Japanese economy will be in for tough times. These fuel shortages have been occurring in increasing frequency and effect for at least the past 3 months of game time. I'm nowhere near an expert on the Japanese economy, but it is a tad alarming to see it having these shortages so early in the game and this is the first I've seen it in an AE game.

Should I be concerned about the hiccuping Japanese economy?

Save attached.

Unfortunately your zip file is corrupted so I can't have a great look at it. But I was testing the AI economy recently and have come to similar conclusions as yourself. Although the AI doesn't play have the same constraints as a human player there are things that I would like to bring up with the AE-team when I have some firm numbers to throw their way.
I think if a few Allied V AI players come forward with their savefiles maybe a better picture could develop.
Hell I've not even tested enough yet to see if the AI actually does need HI to produce things...

Will get back to this thread in coming days-weeks.

Cheers for starting,

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Post #: 2

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/18/2011 6:39:47 AM

Numdydar

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You need to use the beta's as the auto convoy system is broken for Japan in the last official patch. The AC system has been fixed in the latest patches. Here is an entire thread on the topic

that discusses this in great detail.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2898475

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 3

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/18/2011 6:49:06 AM

n01487477

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

You need to use the beta's as the auto convoy system is broken for Japan in the last official patch. The AC system has been fixed in the latest patches. Here is an entire thread on the topic that discusses this in great detail.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2898475

Yeah Michael has done some great work, but that thread does not go into any post-test analysis to see if the system can't be made better. I hardly ever accept all that I read without doing some testing.

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/18/2011 3:59:44 PM

DD696

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Numdydar - please read my initial post: I update to the latest betas as they come out and am aware of the latest auto convoy fix. That fix, however, does not "fix" months and months of previously played turns and to me it appeared that the Japanese AI economy had been seriously damaged.

n0148477 - Sorry it was corrupted. I am restarting as that game obviously had a major glitch with it, but I do have saves for every game turn which I keep for tracker use and have kept them in a saved copy of the tracker files. I'll keep them for while. I went back and reloaded tracker with the April-June 42 saves and found that the Japanese economy had been burping throughout that period also. This time I will be keeping a closer eye on the J economy and hoping that the fix recently made has repaired the problem I noted. I don't log in or post often anymore, but I am here daily in a "guest" status (part of the silent majority). If you would like additional info, let me know.

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/19/2011 2:37:03 AM

Numdydar

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Well if you are using the p8 beta or higher (iirc) then Japan should be doing better with it's economy going forward. Whether they can do well enough to recover or not is likely doubtful. You could just pull back your forces and let the game run for several months with no sub or offensive operations to give the AI a chance to recover. Otherwise, you may have to bite the bullet and just start over as painful as that migh be.

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/19/2011 2:52:05 AM

n01487477

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696
n0148477 - Sorry it was corrupted. I am restarting as that game obviously had a major glitch with it, but I do have saves for every game turn which I keep for tracker use and have kept them in a saved copy of the tracker files. I'll keep them for while. I went back and reloaded tracker with the April-June 42 saves and found that the Japanese economy had been burping throughout that period also. This time I will be keeping a closer eye on the J economy and hoping that the fix recently made has repaired the problem I noted. I don't log in or post often anymore, but I am here daily in a "guest" status (part of the silent majority). If you would like additional info, let me know.

No worries - please keep us informed. The real issue for me is how the AI economy works and I'm yet to discover that fully; whether it needs the res etc and whether that stops it producing. Starting a new test with Scen1 q4 beta - it doesn't look good so far with the drop in all vital stocks.

Running turns take a long time and I'm not changing anything ...

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/20/2011 5:55:47 PM

DD696

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I have made numerous restarts of the game using beta ll08q4 and a couple different scenarios, and am encountering a new problem with the Japanese AI economy. Playing head to head or as the Japanese, the heavy industry points do appear to be accumulating correctly adding in about 2200 points for the first turn of the game using scenario 1. However, if you play as the allies in scenario 1 (or if I use my own scenario) and use tracker to check the Japanese economy, heavy industry points are accumulated each turn with approximately 16,907 per turn being added to the HI point pool for the Japanese. This accumulation went on until I stopped on 26 Dec 41. At that point I changed to a head to head game and checked the Japanese industry screen, and it showed the HI accumulation as per what tracker was saying.

This new problem has occurred within the last couple betas. Easily reproduced. Run the first turn as allies against the AI then run tracker as the Japanese and check the industry screens.

EDIT: Went back and ran first turn with each of the betas going back to q1, and always had x HI added to the pool on the first turn of scenario 1, so I am completely puzzled by this. I had thought that if x Hi points were produced, and then a good number were used up in production, that a number less than x would be added to the HI pool, but I must be mistaken in my math.

< Message edited by DD696 -- 10/4/2011 8:16:49 PM >

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/21/2011 4:26:18 AM

Numdydar

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Why is that an issue? imho it is a good thing for the Japan AI to get 'bonus' points HI as the AI will no way be as efficient as a human. This will help the AI be stronger against the Allies.

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/22/2011 4:53:52 AM

n01487477

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Why is that an issue? imho it is a good thing for the Japan AI to get 'bonus' points HI as the AI will no way be as efficient as a human. This will help the AI be stronger against the Allies.

Yeah which makes this testing - mute. AI V AI that is ... I don't really want to play Allied V AI for 200+ turns.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 9/22/2011 4:54:42 AM >

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/22/2011 11:54:03 AM

DD696

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n01487477 - It appears that your testing confirms what I was experiencing in the game I first talked about. The Japanese AI is not transporting the required materials to the required places. Your J material shortages aren't quite as severe as what I experienced, but your test definitely shows the pattern. You didn't show the HI accumulation but would assume that it was declining just as mine was. Thank's for checking it out. I am glad someone takes a bit of an interest in what I found occurring.

I am still puzzled about the vast HI accumulation in a new game, so am going back to the old game from my first post here and restarting on 1 Jan 42. I'll keep a closer eye on it. With normal play (and assuming I can get my enthusiasm back - it has taken a bit of a hit lately) it won't take long to tell if the convoy fix made in the beta will alleviate the problem for the J economy.

Numdydar - Simply accumulating HI points at the rate of x per turn is a bad idea. What would be the point of trying to deny resources and industries to Japan if it has no actual effect on the game?

< Message edited by DD696 -- 10/4/2011 8:17:35 PM >

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/22/2011 7:00:13 PM

DD696

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Now I realize that I was schooled in the old math, not today's new math, so can anybody explain why, after running 5 turns of the above mentioned AI game using the latest beta, that on 5 Jan 42 the Japanese would have 7,045 HI factories producing 14,090 points. From this 10,222 points are used leaving 3,768 to accumulate into the HI carry over. That is all OK so far. However, and this is the problem, x points are added to the HI accumulation. On the 4th a surplus of x. On the 3rd a surplus of x.

How can this be happening? Is this some kind of "fix" to an AI problem? After fours years of war the Japanese AI would have in the neighborhood of x HI points stored up.

AI players, you might want to check out what is happening in your games.

Edit: Just imagine the fury should this be happening in a PBEM game.....

< Message edited by DD696 -- 10/4/2011 8:18:39 PM >

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/22/2011 7:23:01 PM

Andy Mac

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Note to self: Disable ability to switch sides or peek at AI side in any future game.

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/22/2011 8:51:14 PM

DD696

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Good answer. Thank you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Note to self: Disable ability to switch sides or peek at AI side in any future game.

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/22/2011 9:36:49 PM

Numdydar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696

Now I realize that I was schooled in the old math, not today's new math, so can anybody explain why, after running 5 turns of the above mentioned AI game using the latest beta, that on 5 Jan 42 the Japanese would have 7,045 HI factories producing 14,090 points. From this 10,222 points are used leaving 3,768 to accumulate into the HI carry over. That is all OK so far. However, and this is the problem, 18,370 points are added to the HI accumulation. On the 4th a surplus of 18,448. On the 3rd a surplus of 13,218.

How can this be happening? Is this some kind of "fix" to an AI problem? After fours years of war the Japanese AI would have in the neighborhood of 26,800,000 HI points stored up.

AI players, you might want to check out what is happening in your games.

Edit: Just imagine the fury should this be happening in a PBEM game.....

First off I am Japan in a PBEM game and can attest that this is NOT happening. I am also playing as Japan versus the Allied AI and this is NOT happening. Of course I am using the latest betas too (q2 for both). The PBEM is Scen 2 and versus the AI is Scen 1 for complete disclosue.

However, if the numbers above are accurate, then something is wrong, but I can assure you if this is happening, it is NOT happening when a human is playing Japan.

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/22/2011 10:21:53 PM

DD696

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Of course my numbers aren't correct. After all, I am only an AI player. Of course, I only "think" I am using the latest q4 beta - and as I have stated, I use the latest betas AS THEY COME OUT (or so I "think"). Obviously I am incapable of reading the charts tracker provides.

Start up an AI game as the allies and run tracker for the Japanese side to verify the Japanese economy, and tell me what your results are. A few turns should be sufficient. You wouldn't even have to input any orders - just hit "end turn".

There is no economy for the AI to manage when playing as Japan against the allies and therefore I would not expect it to be happening or else there would have been considerable squawking before now, so I fully accept your assurance that it does not happen when playing as Japan.

Sorry for being a bit grouchy, but it has been a long, dismal struggle to find anyone willing to stand up for the AI player since WitP was first released going on 6-7 years now.

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/23/2011 2:01:28 AM

Andy Mac

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I gave up on standing up for the AI players after the crap I took over what I considered (and still consider) to be the essential AI crutches were removed from historic difficulty.

I wrote most of the AI scripts and spent a long time on them and on testing the AI - pretty much all of the last year on this project was spent on the AI - if you dont like the AI economy on historic dont blame me it worked but then the whingers got at it and made the team take out AI crutches so now I never recommend anyone play on Historic because its a neutered setting as far as I am concerned hence my comment about stopping people peeking at the AI side of the fence as it spoils the immersion.

Andy

< Message edited by Andy Mac -- 9/23/2011 2:02:58 AM >

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/23/2011 3:12:06 AM

n01487477

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I gave up on standing up for the AI players after the crap I took over what I considered (and still consider) to be the essential AI crutches were removed from historic difficulty.

I wrote most of the AI scripts and spent a long time on them and on testing the AI - pretty much all of the last year on this project was spent on the AI - if you dont like the AI economy on historic dont blame me it worked but then the whingers got at it and made the team take out AI crutches so now I never recommend anyone play on Historic because its a neutered setting as far as I am concerned hence my comment about stopping people peeking at the AI side of the fence as it spoils the immersion.

Andy

That's not what I'm doing here Andy. I'm with you on this and didn't want the crutches removed in the first place. But now they are ...

I'm doing this from a purely "does it continue to work" perspective. I just wanted to make sure that the economy can actually run deeper into the war. I have no problem with the AI per-se or the AI cheating, etc ... blah blah blah. But what is important is that the AI at least tries to use it's fleet to distribute 'resources' (given the last beta),& that the economy doesn't fall over mid-42 etc.

I don't play V the AI - you know I program Tracker and this is just one of those area's where I was interested how it worked and whether it worked well enough. Given that you've removed the crutches, I think not so much anymore.

Cheers

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/23/2011 10:03:21 AM

janh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I gave up on standing up for the AI players after the crap I took over what I considered (and still consider) to be the essential AI crutches were removed from historic difficulty.

Andy

Andy, what has been removed from historic difficulty? I must have missed this part when it happened.

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/23/2011 2:57:20 PM

gradenko2k

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I remember a reply Nikademus gave me when I inquired about difficulty levels sometime maybe March this year:

Very Hard means the AI gets 'combat bonuses', and is always considered to be in supply
Hard means the AI plays by normal combat rules, but is always considered to be in supply
Historic means the AI plays by both the combat and the supply rules
Easy means the player gets 'combat bonuses', and the AI plays by the supply rules

Of course, we also know at this point that the AI, when playing Japan (only?) also gets an unlimited amount of planes in the pool regardless of the difficulty level.

For what it's worth, I for one do not mind giving the AI whatever bonuses or advantages it needs, given the task ahead of it.

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/23/2011 8:46:26 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

I remember a reply Nikademus gave me when I inquired about difficulty levels sometime maybe March this year:

Very Hard means the AI gets 'combat bonuses', and is always considered to be in supply
Hard means the AI plays by normal combat rules, but is always considered to be in supply
Historic means the AI plays by both the combat and the supply rules
Easy means the player gets 'combat bonuses', and the AI plays by the supply rules

Of course, we also know at this point that the AI, when playing Japan (only?) also gets an unlimited amount of planes in the pool regardless of the difficulty level.

For what it's worth, I for one do not mind giving the AI whatever bonuses or advantages it needs, given the task ahead of it.

Ergo, Andy Mac's assertion that you only play on HARD difficulty at least. That way the AI is always in supply and the economy is essentially moot. The AI then "only" has to keep combat ships and LCU's moving in the right direction ... that's enough of a challenge if you ask me and Andy has done some great things there with it.

My take is that when the AI crutches were removed, the AI was not simply neutered on the Normal setting, it was broke the economy portion completely. Very foolish, and largely demanded by a group that never plays against the AI anyway. Pity. The group deciding that should have been composed of players like Bullwinkle ...

On the flip side, I play almost always on HARD and get a good game. Earlier , when I was learning the basics, it would have been nice if the AI normal had worked, but I managed to get past that. I've tried VH with Andy's Allied Ironman and just get my butt kicked too badly in China. Hard is high enough in the Ironman scenario's. At least for me ...

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 9/23/2011 8:53:13 PM >

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/23/2011 9:33:18 PM

gradenko2k

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I definitely get what you're saying about having to play on Hard to let the computer give you a good run for your money and I agree, but I think what's throwing us off is Andy Mac's statement that Historic difficulty still has 'AI crutches', which would be in contradiction with what the manual and/or Nikademus have alluded to before (that Historic has no such crutches, even if it means being able to beat the AI handily)

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/23/2011 9:50:30 PM

Reg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I gave up on standing up for the AI players after the crap I took over what I considered (and still consider) to be the essential AI crutches were removed from historic difficulty.

Andy

I am continually astounded by people that seem to think that a dumb computer can take on real human using the same set of rules. It might be a revelation but Lieutenant Commander Data and the spaceship Enterprise don't exist guys......

This is not a case of the computer 'cheating' but giving a simple set of instructions the impression of intelligence and providing a challenge to the player. I'm afraid all computing is just smoke and mirrors under the hood but as long as a program gives the "impression" that it is doing what you expect then it has done it's job.

Just close your eyes and go along for the ride guys.......

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/23/2011 11:15:54 PM

janh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Ergo, Andy Mac's assertion that you only play on HARD difficulty at least. That way the AI is always in supply and the economy is essentially moot. The AI then "only" has to keep combat ships and LCU's moving in the right direction ... that's enough of a challenge if you ask me and Andy has done some great things there with it.

My take is that when the AI crutches were removed, the AI was not simply neutered on the Normal setting, it was broke the economy portion completely. Very foolish, and largely demanded by a group that never plays against the AI anyway. Pity. The group deciding that should have been composed of players like Bullwinkle ...

On the flip side, I play almost always on HARD and get a good game. Earlier , when I was learning the basics, it would have been nice if the AI normal had worked, but I managed to get past that. I've tried VH with Andy's Allied Ironman and just get my butt kicked too badly in China. Hard is high enough in the Ironman scenario's. At least for me ...

Hmmh, I knew of supply benefits, but didn't know it was full supply. But if the the Hard setting basically represents "Normal/Historic" in the old fashion, then nothing is lost -- just play "hard". I would be curious to know what other things AI does differently. I recall that ship repairs are amongst that, since it was to complicated to implement that in a finite time satisfactorily. I don't know whether it at all has to do pilot training the same way we do, or whether filling and overstacking sqrns with pilots matters for AI.

To be honest, AI still manages to get some supply to the needy points, and on "Normal" I would much more like to see a percentage bonus (50%, i.e. 1.5 x the real supply stock). A "full supply" bonus is just too strong and completely changes the character of the ops. You really don't win anything by trying to be smart, and hunt down supply routes of islands, OZ etc, or just try to isolate and pocket some chinese stack with a neat armored maneuver. Just doesn't pay. A straight assault is "safer" and gives the same result, and any bomb or torp on an AK or TK is almost a wasted one. Perhaps I have too little patience or discipline to still play as if supply would matter. With a percentage bonus, AI would still need to bring in at least a little, and it usually is achieves that. Probably too late to put that on the wishlist, I guess.

< Message edited by janh -- 9/23/2011 11:16:11 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/24/2011 12:13:53 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I gave up on standing up for the AI players after the crap I took over what I considered (and still consider) to be the essential AI crutches were removed from historic difficulty.

Andy

I am continually astounded by people that seem to think that a dumb computer can take on real human using the same set of rules. It might be a revelation but Lieutenant Commander Data and the spaceship Enterprise don't exist guys......

This is not a case of the computer 'cheating' but giving a simple set of instructions the impression of intelligence and providing a challenge to the player. I'm afraid all computing is just smoke and mirrors under the hood but as long as a program gives the "impression" that it is doing what you expect then it has done it's job.

Just close your eyes and go along for the ride guys.......

Reg,

Fully agree with you. Which is why I find it quite distasteful every time someone says the AI cheats. No AI cheats, it merely follows it's written instructions. To remove these so called "crutches" is to emasculate a program to make it easy for a human to beat the AI. Very ironic how some players pour scorn on the capabilities of an AI but then are very quick to insist on it being emasculated.

I for one would fully support returning to the AI any removed "crutch". As long as it is known to the player what the "crutch" is, AI programers should be allowed complete freedom to maximise the strength of an AI as they see fit. particularly when PBEM is so readily available.

Alfred

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/24/2011 11:30:14 AM

janh

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Joined: 6/12/2007
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Yeah, as long as AI development is lagging behind and no dev will invest huge costs into it, AI's will need crutches. Clearly the more you refine it, the less crutches it needs. Yet I think it must be carefully weighed which crutches it gets, so they don't change the character of the game. AI doesn't cheat, it just walks on stout crutches...
I think Andy is right than completely removing the supply benefits on Historic wasn't too great. Even on that difflev it should also get some bonuses, but not such extremes as on higher levels. Something that still would keep cutting supplies a valid tactic against AI, and still disfavor brute force approaches by the player. Like a big bonus on any supply it gets through, but if nothing, then it should also starve on a bare min.

PBEM I admit always sounds great. Yet if I see how many turns I managed in my present GC in the past 8 weeks, I am sure I don't want to bother anybody for a game. My freetime presently comes in very unevenly spread chunks due to my job and other commitments, and I am sure that would annoy any opponent. Sometimes I play 30 turns a week, sometimes none. So, for the time being, rather than risking bailing on a PBEM game on someone after a while, or regularly postponing turns, I better stick to AI, which is readily available whenever I surprisingly find a free hour, and otherwise follow the great AARs here.

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RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/24/2011 8:45:36 PM

PaxMondo

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Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

PBEM I admit always sounds great.� Yet if I see how many turns I managed in my present GC in the past 8 weeks, I am sure I don't want to bother anybody for a game.� My freetime presently comes in very unevenly spread chunks due to my job and other commitments, and I am sure that would annoy any opponent.� Sometimes I play 30 turns a week, sometimes none.� So, for the time being, rather than risking bailing on a PBEM game on someone after a while, or regularly postponing turns, I better stick to AI, which is readily available whenever I surprisingly find a free hour, and otherwise follow the great AARs here.�

My issues are very similar. I suspect it is true for many (most?) of us who play against the AI. It isn't our first choice, but given the rest of our life commitments it is our only choice.

As Alfred stated, I don't really care how they enable the AI. All I want is a good game and to know what help it is receiving.

Andy Mac's achievements with the AI are astounding. Is it perfect? Hardly. Does it give a good stock game for 200 - 300 turns? Oh Yeah. It does much better in the Ironman scenarios because of the help given which slows down the human player. That is a HUGE enabler for the AI to stay in the game longer. I've gotten to ~500 turns in good shape before a restart*. 500 turns ... that's good AI.

* I had to restart because I had hopelessly gotten myself trapped in China against Andy's Allied Ironman. You really gotta watch China carefully in that scenario. Andy has done some really NASTY things to the allies that can bite you pretty badly.

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Post #: 27

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/26/2011 12:20:10 PM

Andy Mac

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
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AI on hard should give you a decent game.

AI on historic basically there were a few aircraft production issues (not AI crutches) in the launch version that started a firestorm about AI cheating when actually it was a bug in the AI productoin module that James fixed for patch 1 but by then the damage was done and a number of AI crutches were removed at the same time.

Now I only recommend playing on hard.

p.s. AI does not get full supply but does get some help in producing supply and fuel - and no I am never going to release the list of AI cheats

As I have said many times before

1. I recomend Hard difficulty
2. With the odd few days a month maybe changing to Vhard if you want to give the AI a boost
3. I recommend 2 day turns

p.s. If you thought those versions of the Ironman's were tough wait till you see the next generation....I just need to finish on the May 42 AI before I can finish polishing them but I am hoping they will be totally nasty.......

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Post #: 28

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/26/2011 10:31:31 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

p.s. If you thought those versions of the Ironman's were tough wait till you see the next generation....I just need to finish on the May 42 AI before I can finish polishing them but I am hoping they will be totally nasty.......

Oh NO!

Will I be able to update the AI files without re-starting to take advantage of this?

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Post #: 29

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/26/2011 11:24:55 PM

DD696

Posts: 964
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: near Savannah, Ga
Status: offline

I play the AI on hard. I stopped using very hard a while back because I figured that I if had worked to isolate a base that eventually it should run out of supply and did not feel that was realistic.

Many times in AI games in the original WitP the Japanese economy would simply die and to me, the game was essentially over at that point. I was always disappointed at having spent so much effort and time in a game to have it basically quit on me. The AI for the opposing forces movement was also very poor.

I certainly commend Andy for the work he did for the AI scripts - the games are interesting now. I once told Andy that I would be pleased to send him a check to show my appreciation for the vastly improved AI in the game (if I ever make it to the end of one). When I see the AI's economy going down the tubes in the same manner as in the original version of the game, I do get concerned. Am I wasting my time? Will the economy manage to function until the 45-46 time frame dependent upon the damage I inflict upon it?

If the economy simply quits, then it is a game not worth playing. If the economy is propped up so unrealistically to the level that it does not matter if I sink that tanker carrying oil or fuel, or that I inflict intensive damage upon the merchant fleet, or that I damage industries in Japan through bombing or bombardment, then again I question whether this is a worthwhile game for the AI player. We all know the AI requires help, but was it done in such a way that it makes the basic outline of the game to go off into never-never land for the AI player?

That is why I keep tabs on the Japanese economy while playing as the allies. If doing so causes you such great anxiety that you will block all efforts for the AI player to monitor and enjoy the game, well, after all, that is apparently your prerogative. Would it be just or wise? That I would question. The development of this game would certainly have been enhanced by having AI players on the team, but that was not who was chosen and we have the game we have. If I or anyone else cannot question some of the basics of the game or ask for technical support when we find a perceived problem with the AI (be it the economy or the AI scripts), then there is definitely a bias against the AI player. To answer in the manner you did is quite unacceptable.

So my questions: Can an AI player ask a question and not get trounced upon for doing so? Does the economy work for the Japanese AI as explained in thousands of posts in this forum? Why do I see thousands of un-produced HI points dumped into the HI pool? Will the convoy system attempt to supply Japan with oil, fuel and resources? Did the last fix to the auto-convoy system fix this problem?

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