RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Tech Support >> RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42

Page: << < prev 1 [2]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/27/2011 12:26:21 AM

Numdydar

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696

Will the convoy system attempt to supply Japan with oil, fuel and resources? Did the last fix to the auto-convoy system fix this problem?

I can answer this question as I use the AC system extensively in my game as Japan. Beta p8 and higher, I can say that the AC system is completely fixed and works as it should have at the launch of the game. Up to now AC ships would get stuck at ports waiting for oil and resources to appear when those locations would never ever have any. So over the course of a game, a huge number of AC ships would not be able to be used which would have a major impact on Japan's economy.

This no longer occurs and AC ships are constantly moving oil, fuel, and resources from all over the map to Japan and bringing suplies out. I have carefully watched the behavior of the AC system for severeal months now in game time and can attest that the AC system is working better than it ever has been

(in reply to DD696)

Post #: 31

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/27/2011 1:28:27 AM

n01487477

Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696

Will the convoy system attempt to supply Japan with oil, fuel and resources? Did the last fix to the auto-convoy system fix this problem?

I can answer this question as I use the AC system extensively in my game as Japan. Beta p8 and higher, I can say that the AC system is completely fixed and works as it should have at the launch of the game. Up to now AC ships would get stuck at ports waiting for oil and resources to appear when those locations would never ever have any. So over the course of a game, a huge number of AC ships would not be able to be used which would have a major impact on Japan's economy.

This is true it has been fixed so that it is better than before.

quote:

This no longer occurs and AC ships are constantly moving oil, fuel, and resources from all over the map to Japan and bringing suplies out. I have carefully watched the behavior of the AC system for severeal months now in game time and can attest that the AC system is working better than it ever has been

Maybe I'm way off base here cause I've not done much testing like Numdydar & maybe am not using the system correctly. However, I would say the auto-convoy system (ACS) is OK at sending supplies to bases that need it & I'd only use it for that in backwaters. Secondly, from my understanding it works or prioritises on supply requirements. Therefore bases such as Port Arthur and others which have tonnes of supplies but you need to pickup Resources are visited, but the amount of ships used is too small for the requirements. Thus it is a bad system to use for Resource pickup. Next, you want to pick up predominantly fuel not oil from the SRA, it doesn't do that effectively as it wants to send fuel and pickup fuel/oil combo. It mis-allocates ships into convoys, and a plethora of other bad stuff. So, YES it works, but not in the way you probably want.

I'd actually never use the ACS, as the CS system is much more effective and can be controlled better. Once set up the CS system is no hassle, hands free, check once a month type thing. The ACS will never let you sleep well at night when it comes to raw material movement apart from supplies. I think this thread shows, the AI cannot deal with raw material requirements for Japan, so I can't see how the ACS would do much better.

Now Numdydar obviously is more versed at the system than I, so I'd like him to post how he sets up the ACS, what ports and ships he uses. And then I'd like to see what raw materials it is pulling back to the Home Is before I completely condemn it.

If you are going to use it, use it sparingly in combination with the more robust CS system.

[edit]I wait to be a believer & am willing to change my mind

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 9/27/2011 1:35:54 AM >

_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 32

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/27/2011 3:13:41 AM

n01487477

Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696

Will the convoy system attempt to supply Japan with oil, fuel and resources? Did the last fix to the auto-convoy system fix this problem?

I can answer this question as I use the AC system extensively in my game as Japan. Beta p8 and higher, I can say that the AC system is completely fixed and works as it should have at the launch of the game. Up to now AC ships would get stuck at ports waiting for oil and resources to appear when those locations would never ever have any. So over the course of a game, a huge number of AC ships would not be able to be used which would have a major impact on Japan's economy.

This is true it has been fixed so that it is better than before.

.. I take it back - it isn't working better, it just seems to be.

Picture below.(and this is not a one off - I just tracked on TF for show)
1. ACS TF1 heading to Fusan (where I live)
2. Docks Fusan and starts to load Res; orders are changed to pick up from Port Arthur
3. Few days later leaves Fusan with Res heading to Port Arthur.
4. Unloads at Port Arthur and a few days later loads Res
5. Heads for Osaka loaded.

OK - so this is not an isolated case. I've also seen TF like (5) heading back to Osaka get a change in orders to pickup from another port and head somewhere else to unload and then pick up the same cargo they had.

Anyone want to double check this before Micheal gets another post in his burgeoning Beta thread

Cheers

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 33

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/27/2011 5:05:54 PM

gradenko2k

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

AI on historic basically there were a few aircraft production issues (not AI crutches) in the launch version that started a firestorm about AI cheating when actually it was a bug in the AI productoin module that James fixed for patch 1 but by then the damage was done and a number of AI crutches were removed at the same time.

p.s. AI does not get full supply but does get some help in producing supply and fuel - and no I am never going to release the list of AI cheats

Does this mean that the AI getting infinite planes is actually a myth? (right alongside teleporting TFs)

Andy, I don't think anyone is disputing that the AI needs artificial help to give you a decent game. At the minimum, I think DD696 just wants to find out if those extra HI points are deliberate give-aways to assist the AI, since it matters when you're trying to write an application like WITPTracker.

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 34

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/28/2011 1:29:12 PM

michaelm75au

Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696

Will the convoy system attempt to supply Japan with oil, fuel and resources? Did the last fix to the auto-convoy system fix this problem?

I can answer this question as I use the AC system extensively in my game as Japan. Beta p8 and higher, I can say that the AC system is completely fixed and works as it should have at the launch of the game. Up to now AC ships would get stuck at ports waiting for oil and resources to appear when those locations would never ever have any. So over the course of a game, a huge number of AC ships would not be able to be used which would have a major impact on Japan's economy.

This is true it has been fixed so that it is better than before.

.. I take it back - it isn't working better, it just seems to be.

Picture below.(and this is not a one off - I just tracked on TF for show)
1. ACS TF1 heading to Fusan (where I live)
2. Docks Fusan and starts to load Res; orders are changed to pick up from Port Arthur
3. Few days later leaves Fusan with Res heading to Port Arthur.
4. Unloads at Port Arthur and a few days later loads Res
5. Heads for Osaka loaded.

OK - so this is not an isolated case. I've also seen TF like (5) heading back to Osaka get a change in orders to pickup from another port and head somewhere else to unload and then pick up the same cargo they had.

Anyone want to double check this before Micheal gets another post in his burgeoning Beta thread

Cheers

I think that if the convoy TF enroute to its destination is in base hex from which it can load, it is interupting its journaey to load at that base, and then continues onward.
It is hard to pick when it happens - ran several turns trying to get it done exactly what you see. Now to work out why it happens sometimes and not others.

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 35

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/28/2011 3:51:45 PM

Numdydar

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

I have seen that behavior as well of a AC going to one port then going to a different one carrying the same load (usually resources). It was my impression that one of two things were happening.

1) The first port did not completely fill up the TF and it went looking for more cargo in order to completely fill it up before it returns home

or

2) The AI thinks the second port needs what it is carrying for some reason.

For the example above, here is what may be occuring.

- The AC picks up the cargo and runs the routine to select the destination port. If it is not full, then it may do option 1 from above
- The port selection routine MAY select a port that at that specific moment it thinks needs the cargo contained in the TF. For example, Port Author (PA) may be low enough on resources when the routine is run that it would allow that port to be selected versus going back home.
- The routine would ignore the fact that by the time the TF got there enough of the cargo that was thought to have been needed would have either been produced in the hex or moved overland to it (as in PAs case). So it shows up at PA, unloads, and then 'realizes' that there is now enough there so the AI says to to load it back up and take home.

Even though this behavior slightly slows down things and it would be nice for the AC system to work as efficiently as possible, it is still light years better from where it was.

I use AC for almost all my bases and assign any cargo and escort ships that are 12K or less in speed. So I have a LOT of ACs going everywhere. It makes playing Japan much easier imho. As an example, after the AC systems was fixed, I ran low on fuel at Rabaul. Before I could get my TF there an AC TF showed up with about 30K of fuel and 20K of supplies. Have no idea of how (or when) it started going there, but it was very nice to see it show up

. The only places where I do not use ACs are where combat operations are taking place, like the Solomons, eastern end of New Guniea, etc. Everywhere else I have it turned on. In a few areas where combat occasional does occur, like Ragoon, I still leave the AC on for the base, just to make sure that if for some reason, I forget or lose track, something at some time will show up, lol.

To me the main point of the AC system is to save time. For those that manually setup all their cargo TFs, I admire them but it is just too time consuming for me and the way I play. For me the AC system as it works now, really helps me spend time more on the combat side of things and major fuel and resource convoys (60K+) versus having to constantly wonder if some backwater base is getting what it needs. Really helps speed up my turns too

.

However your milage may vary

(in reply to michaelm75au)

Post #: 36

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/29/2011 1:43:36 PM

DD696

Posts: 964
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: near Savannah, Ga
Status: offline

Another question I would have regards this: when AE was released we found we now have refineries and light industry to work with. The need for oil in Japan has diminished. Naturally it's refineries still need oil to operate to produce fuel, but now it is fuel which drives the HI. Japan's primary import in this case should be fuel, but secondary to retain an oil reserve. Oil, at it's production points, is generally converted immediately into fuel and there is not much of an oil surplus to ship back to Japan (unless refineries have been damaged). Regarding light industry, it is a resource hog and I do wonder if the game takes into account the huge resource needs of Japan and were these new needs programmed into the system? It would be one explanation of why so little resources and fuel are being transported to Japan. (This is why I have added extra oil in my game in the hopes that it will get to Japan).

Regarding crutches for the AI: Yes, it needs them - but, the basics of the game should still operate. Oil, fuel, resources and supply should flow to the needed points via ground or convoy. If this worked then the crutches would not seem like Voodoo Economics. A good example of a "crutch" as I see it for a game as an Allied player would be to remove the myriad variety of J aircraft engines and and simply have an "engine". Then the AI does not have to attempt to figure out whether to produce this model or that model. It would require a separate scenario, but the AI player may get a better game. I have been considering making such changes in my game, but without knowing whether or not this would interfere with some of the hard coding done in the game always makes me wonder if it is worth the trouble.

I know that the team spent time making this game have a better AI than it's predecessor did, and did so due to a kick in the butt from Matrix - hurray for Matrix and their judgment in the value of the AI player's dollars! I question whether due diligence was put into making the economy work as it is said to work, or whether simply unrealistic hard coding and "crutches" were used to pull the wool over the AI player's eyes and lead him to think that he is playing the "same game" that the PBEM players are.

When I see the Japanese economy in the process of dying in Oct 42, or when I see xx not produced HI points being dumped into the pool, I see an economy that does not work, and I see a that a pretty poor "crutch" was used to make the AI player think it does.

I have yet to begin another game or to continue a previous one, but when I do I will be monitoring the Japanese economy more closely (unless you have now denied us the ability to do so).

Edit: Having a working economy should certainly not be dependent upon whether the player is playing on easy, historical, hard or very hard. It either works, or it doesn't.

< Message edited by DD696 -- 10/4/2011 8:21:52 PM >

_____________________________

USMC: 1970-1977. A United States Marine.
We don't take kindly to idjits.

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 37

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/29/2011 7:57:22 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

time for a green button.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to DD696)

Post #: 38

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/30/2011 3:44:23 AM

gradenko2k

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline

By the by, can WITPTracker tell us if the Japan AI gets free manpower as well? Again, not trying to argue if it's necessary or not (yes, it is), just looking for information, since that would be relevant to how you'd specifically tackle the AI.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 39

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 9/30/2011 10:19:29 PM

DD696

Posts: 964
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: near Savannah, Ga
Status: offline

Try Tracker, you'll like it! Works well for either side, currently. I don't know what effect the crutches have had upon manpower, but from what I saw 300 turns into the game there were excess manpower points - quite a few of them. Whether regular math or "new" math was used I never checked.

Don't get wrong here - I have no expectations that how the game handles the computer AI player will be fixed to work in the manner that we are told it does. When I go in and make modifications to the game to enhance the J economy I sort of expected that the changes I made might have the desired effect on the game. That is not always true, so I waste a great deal of time in trying to get the game to operate as we have been told that it would. Without an understanding of how the game handles the AI economy makes a lot of modding just plain muddled. It takes a lot of time to play this game, and going in and wasting a great deal of time trying to find out if a change is having the desired effect, and then to find out that unaccounted for HI points are being dumped into the pools in order to do some basic simulation of an economy, well, it gets a tad discouraging and frustrating. The system used to query which bases have excess goods ready to be transported to Japan and the process of doing so does have issues. The goods are not being transported and ships sit idle in far away ports. Perhaps these might be issues that would benefit all players if they were fixed. If it does not work as everyone says it does, then just what does it do? Is it possible to get an answer?

I give praise where praise is due

, and I give criticism where criticism is due

. That is apparently a fault of mine. If the game worked as stated, I'd be as happy as the PBEM players.

_____________________________

USMC: 1970-1977. A United States Marine.
We don't take kindly to idjits.

(in reply to gradenko2k)

Post #: 40

RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42 - 10/5/2011 9:18:37 AM

byron13

Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline

So I'm still plodding along with v 1.03 and am shocked to see how far I've fallen behind. Guess I have a lot of reading to do.

My question regarding the difficulty settings is this: when you say that, on the hard setting, the Japanese are always in supply, does that refer to mainland Japan and its industries only, or does that apply to each LCU around the map? If the former, then I would expect Japan to still have to ship fuel and supplies from Japan to an atoll. If the latter, then blockading fails, and Japanese units or bases can never be starved. Which of these is Andy saying happens on the hard setting?

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 41

Page: << < prev 1 [2]

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Tech Support >> RE: Faltering Japanese AI Economy Oct 42

Page: << < prev 1 [2]