Fort decay

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Fort decay

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Fort decay

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Fort decay - 11/1/2011 10:02:45 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

Fort decay is pretty brutal in 1.05. Questions:

- Level 2 or 3 fort decays right back to zero, or gradually down to level 2, then 1 then 0?

- In order to stop fort decay, the location has to be occupied. Can it be occupied by any unit, including HQa and airbases or it has to be combat unit?

Post #: 1

RE: Fort decay - 11/1/2011 10:19:04 PM

Balou

Posts: 841
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline

Q-Ball in his AAR ("Death Ride to Russia, post # 121) is using empty airbases for digging or preventing fort decay.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 2

RE: Fort decay - 11/1/2011 10:23:49 PM

Ketza

Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline

It is indeed brutal but the work arounds are using empty Airbases, HQs and fort units with TOE set very low.

It makes the front look too gamey for my tastes but in 1943 onward as Axis if you dont have fort fallback positions your going to get hammered so there isnt much choice.

_____________________________

(in reply to Balou)

Post #: 3

RE: Fort decay - 11/1/2011 10:44:19 PM

Balou

Posts: 841
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline

Remains hard to fgure out HQ clerks armed with shovels. Same goes for LW units, they probably had their own tactics about how to turtle.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Ketza)

Post #: 4

RE: Fort decay - 11/1/2011 11:27:24 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline

I will confirm that HQs and Airbases work great. I prefer Fort Zones if you have the APs, because that's fewer guys outside. But I didn't have enough APs.

The Soviets always have spare Rifle units around to use, and probably don't need to use Fort Zones

_____________________________

(in reply to Balou)

Post #: 5

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 2:20:56 AM

Peltonx

Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

Turtleing is that when Russians run east after evacing armament pts?

or is that just plain gaming the system?

Post a picture of an armament pt in a Reds arms on a rail car, so we get the picture.

Work arounds=exploits.

rail system = exploit.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 11/2/2011 2:26:28 AM >

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 6

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 3:03:08 AM

gradenko2k

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline

Until and unless the devs specifically disallow you from performing a certain action within the game and/or both players agree to restrain themselves from doing a certain action (what we call a "house rule"), a player is certainly within his rights to take whatever action he deems necessary to win the game.

You can't oblige someone to evac Heavy Industry if he knows he doesn't need to. You can't oblige someone to stand-and-fight just because that was the historical strategy pursued. Trying to make players feel worse about themselves by calling these things "exploits" is hardly going to net any sympathy for the problems you're trying to point out.

(in reply to Peltonx)

Post #: 7

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 4:33:26 AM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
Trying to make players feel worse about themselves by calling these things "exploits" is hardly going to net any sympathy for the problems you're trying to point out.

People just need to understand that Pelton simply has his own definition of "exploit",which is something like "anything another player does that negatively impacts my strategy and which I consider, in my sole discretion, at least slightly gamey." And you can't forget the "Axis exploit exclusion rules", such as the Germans getting to Stalino by Turn 7, which is totally and completely legit.

Once you understand the language he is speaking it is easier (although not always completely possible) to tune out his rants.

(in reply to gradenko2k)

Post #: 8

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 8:59:43 AM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Fort decay is pretty brutal in 1.05. Questions:

- Level 2 or 3 fort decays right back to zero, or gradually down to level 2, then 1 then 0?

- In order to stop fort decay, the location has to be occupied. Can it be occupied by any unit, including HQa and airbases or it has to be combat unit?

Decay is always gradual...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 9

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 1:12:56 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I will confirm that HQs and Airbases work great. I prefer Fort Zones if you have the APs, because that's fewer guys outside. But I didn't have enough APs.

I am glad that HQ units prevent forts from decaying, but that's actually against the manual. After posting my original question I found that the manual says that only combat units prevent fort decay (that was obviously in v1.0, when forts decayed slower).

So, apparently there was some rule change down the road in that now even non-combat units (HQs) prevent decay?

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 10

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 1:17:09 PM

BletchleyGeek

Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
So, apparently there was some rule change down the road in that now even non-combat units (HQs) prevent decay?

As far as I recall, any on-map unit precludes decay (the manual hasn't stated otherwise as far as I remember). With 1.05.18 fort decay became apparent, before that was very, very mild.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't understand your question Oleg.

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 11/2/2011 1:19:00 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 11

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 2:38:03 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
So, apparently there was some rule change down the road in that now even non-combat units (HQs) prevent decay?

As far as I recall, any on-map unit precludes decay (the manual hasn't stated otherwise as far as I remember).

Page 204 of the game manual, section 15.3.2.1: "Once a fort level is constructed it will start to decay if the hex is not occupied by a COMBAT unit."

That's what the manual says, now if airbase and HQ units prevent decay, obviously there was a rule change (a welcome change I might say, because now the decay is brutal and any anti-decay help is good)

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)

Post #: 12

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 3:03:13 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

In manual Addendum...

quote:

v1.05.18 � September 6, 2011

New Features and Rule Changes

20) Changes to Fortification Rules
a. Requirement to build up to Fort Level 5 - Only will be built in port hexes that have a fort unit. Once built, the fort unit is not needed to keep the level 4 fort. Not possible in a swamp hex.
b. Requirement to build up to Fort Level 4 - Must have a fort unit in the hex. Once built, the fort unit is not needed to keep the level 4 fort. Not possible in swamp hex.
c. Requirement to build up to Fort Level 3 - Must be adjacent to an enemy hex, be an urban or city hex, or be in or adjacent to a fort unit. Once the level 3 is reached, the condition does not have to continue to be met to keep the level 3 fort.
d. Fort levels that have reached their maximum fort level for the hex may continue to build up to 10% towards the next fort level.
e. Building forts in mud now uses a .25 modifier (instead of .33).
f. Level 4 and 5 forts do not decay.
g. There is no fort decay on turn 1 of any scenario.
h. Doubled the rate of fort decay.
i. Increased decay rate of low level forts, based on the weather.
Extra decay percentage:
Fort Weather
Level clear snow mud/blizzard
0 20 40 80
1 12 14 48
2 4 8 16
g. Added supply cost for fort construction as follows: fort 0->1 1 tons per fort point (no cost for isolated units, construction rate is halved) fort 1->2 2 tons per fort point (no cost for isolated units, construction rate is halved) fort 2->3 20 tons per fort points fort 3->4 200 tons per fort points fort 4->5 2000 tons

As for non-combat units causing non-decay of forts I have no idea - perhaps it is a bug... I will ask Pavel...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 13

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 3:22:54 PM

BletchleyGeek

Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
So, apparently there was some rule change down the road in that now even non-combat units (HQs) prevent decay?

As far as I recall, any on-map unit precludes decay (the manual hasn't stated otherwise as far as I remember).

Page 204 of the game manual, section 15.3.2.1: "Once a fort level is constructed it will start to decay if the hex is not occupied by a COMBAT unit."

That's what the manual says, now if airbase and HQ units prevent decay, obviously there was a rule change (a welcome change I might say, because now the decay is brutal and any anti-decay help is good)

My memory is obviously faulty

_____________________________

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 14

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 3:39:41 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

I also have as problem with this rule:

"Requirement to build up to Fort Level 4 - Must have a fort unit in the hex. Once built, the fort unit is not needed to keep the level 4 fort." and this: "Requirement to build up to Fort Level 3 - Must be adjacent to an enemy hex, be an urban or city hex, or be in or adjacent to a fort unit."

I built fort units specifically to enable me reaching level 3 and possibly 4 in hexes that are NOT adjacent to enemy, as per rule(s) above. The rule above says that the only way to get to level 3 *IF* a hex is not adjacent to enemy or urban, is to have a fort unit nearby, right?

The only problem is fort building still does not proceed above level 2 even with forts in adjacent hexes, nor does it proceed above level 3 with fort IN the said hex. So either I don't understand the new rule or something is wrong?

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)

Post #: 15

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 4:10:10 PM

gradenko2k

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline

I think what the rule is trying to say is that you have a hex with a fort unit, that specific hex can reach as high as level 4, and all hexes adjacent to it can reach as high as level 3. If you place a fort unit on every other hex, then there'll be a pattern of 4-3-4-3-4-3 forts.

What do you mean by fort building not proceeding? I imagine a fort unit could build up to level 4 all by itself, but it'd take a while given the construction rating of a fort unit by itself.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 16

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 4:17:11 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

I think what the rule is trying to say is that you have a hex with a fort unit, that specific hex can reach as high as level 4, and all hexes adjacent to it can reach as high as level 3. If you place a fort unit on every other hex, then there'll be a pattern of 4-3-4-3-4-3 forts.

That is correct, that is how I understand the rule should work as well. However, see below...

quote:

What do you mean by fort building not proceeding? I imagine a fort unit could build up to level 4 all by itself, but it'd take a while given the construction rating of a fort unit by itself.

Even though I have forts in every other hex, the building of forts in hexes WITH forts stays at 3 + 0% (should work slowly towards 4) and in hexes adjacent to forts stays at 2 + 0% (should go slowly towards 3). In toher words it's like fort units have no effect.

(in reply to gradenko2k)

Post #: 17

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 5:26:14 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

There was a bug with the forts not working several versions ago, IIRC, but in a recent game I'm playing I'm seeing the forts work with adjacent hexes getting to 3 (10%). If with the latest version you are not seeing the fort hexes build to 4 or adjacent build to 3, please post a save if you have one. Thanks.

Yes, combat units should be in the hex to prevent decay, so this is a bug we will look into.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 18

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 6:13:38 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

Joel some of my forts have *Refit status, the asterisk (*) probably indicating they are not combat ready until their TOE fills up. Could the lack of combat readiness (indicated by *) mean they are not radiating the fort building benefits to the units in their hex and adjacent hexes?

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 19

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 6:40:07 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

Anything is possible, but I think that's unlikely as it was not in the specs and I assume Pavel would have had to code it that way to make the unready status impact fort building.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 20

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 6:47:09 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

Hmm, suggest to Pavel to take a look in this thread. If it's intended that fort units don't provide benefits while their TOE is not fully ready, then fine. If it's not intended, then I can provide a savefile for Pavel.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 21

RE: Fort decay - 11/2/2011 10:37:21 PM

Helpless

Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline

Unready fort units should trigger higher fort level allowance.

Making all the requirements is just one side of the coin, you also need to have high construction value to ba able to build high level forts. Obviously low TOE units won't give much.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 22

RE: Fort decay - 11/3/2011 12:09:10 AM

pompack

Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

I think what the rule is trying to say is that you have a hex with a fort unit, that specific hex can reach as high as level 4, and all hexes adjacent to it can reach as high as level 3. If you place a fort unit on every other hex, then there'll be a pattern of 4-3-4-3-4-3 forts.

That is correct, that is how I understand the rule should work as well. However, see below...

quote:

What do you mean by fort building not proceeding? I imagine a fort unit could build up to level 4 all by itself, but it'd take a while given the construction rating of a fort unit by itself.

Even though I have forts in every other hex, the building of forts in hexes WITH forts stays at 3 + 0% (should work slowly towards 4) and in hexes adjacent to forts stays at 2 + 0% (should go slowly towards 3). In toher words it's like fort units have no effect.

Playing 1.05.37 with the game started one rev back, I have built a maze of forts between Leningrad and Luga with all level 3 except one level 4. I placed the fort units two hexes apart in two dimensions and it worked exactly as stated. Note that I did have a combat unit stacked with each fort so that may have made a difference. Also note that I had over 20 turns to do it because Leningrad was not attacked. Also remember that forts build much more quickly next to Leningrad due to civilian labor; perhaps it just takes a very long time to build forts up to that level.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 23

RE: Fort decay - 11/3/2011 12:15:44 AM

gingerbread

Posts: 2994
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Sweden
Status: offline

This is in a testbed Human vs Human, normal and just ending turns (except for vacating and capturing Lvov and Vyborg so that the Slovaks and Finns stay in the game).

In 05.37 it is as if F.R.'s does not qualify as combat unit to trigger civilian assistance. There is one at start in Leningrad (L4 + 10%), but even so the fort level does not increase. It does take 50 contruction points to increase each 2%, but there are Finnish units within 12 hexes, so some turn should see some civilian assistance (120 c-points). Oranienbaum (L4+10%) also starts with a F.R. and with the 4th Nav Inf, it does manage to build 2% now and then, i.e the F.R. allows fort level to increase beyond L4+10%. Presence of IB triggers civilian assistance, in itself it does not have enough c-points to get +2%.

(in reply to Helpless)

Post #: 24